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aidanbradypop
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:nope:
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If, as the confessions say, the Church is the congregation of saints, where the word is preached and the sacraments administered, then it seems that the Catholic Church cannot be denied the title of Christ’s Church. Neither is it exclusively and alone Christ’s
Church.
Jon
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Luth123
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Could you please explain your view instead of just an emotion icon? JonNC did a much better job explaining the Truth then I did.
I’m guessing you feel God will allow Catholics to be saved?
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Porknpie
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Luth123, first of all welcome to CAF. Stay close to Jon. He’s a good soul.
Luth, how do you know the bible is inspired and the inerrant Word of God?
Luth, for this to be true, scripture must say it…otherwise you are following a path not in scripture. Do you have a chapter and verse on this??
Stay close to Jon Luth123. He’s one one of them Evangelical Catholics…
Are you??
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Luth123
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Jon seems to have my views and appears better articulated and less confrontational than me. He’s definitely a good soul.Luth123, first of all welcome to CAF. Stay close to Jon. He’s a good soul.
Luth, how do you know the bible is inspired and the inerrant Word of God?
It’s called faith. Just like I believe in God and that Jesus is my savior. Without faith we are just randomly generated statistics in a randomly generated world which seems far more crazy then a divine intervention for our existence.
It does. It’s just a few posts above and you even quoted a part of it, but I’ll post it again
John 14:6 – Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Since the human Jesus is no longer walking on this earth our ONLY path to the Father is our Bible thus only scripture is the path… sola scriptura
Depends how you define Evangelical Catholics. I’m Evangelical in that I post my opinions , but I don’t actively attempt to recruit. I present my ideas and reasoning and let you decide (… like Fox news).
I’m a catholic believer as in all-embracing True Church of God. The True Church of God has nothing to do with being a member of the Catholic denomination other than many Catholics, but not all are a part of the True Church. I don’t consider the Pope the anti-Christ. He’s just another sinful human like everyone else.
I choose to identify as an ELCA Lutheran since I feel individuals have a right to do as they please as long as they are serving God. So women should be allowed to be priest or pastors. Only man decided to be sexist. Although I feel homosexual behavior is an abomination, homosexuals who wish to server God should be welcomed. The behavior is what should be rejected not the people.
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Porknpie
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Jon’s behavior is exemplary … almost…always.
Luth123, You believe that the bible is inerrant and inspired based on faith. Fill in the blank Luth, same word for each blank.
"I believe that the bible is inerrant and inspired because the ______ Church said it was…and I thus believe that the _____ Church was infallible in selecting the books of the canon.
We definitely agree here.
Nah, without faith we’re simply dead Luth.
Luth, so the bible was canonized in 400ad. What did the Christians do from the time of Christ to 400 ad? There was no scriptura and clearly no sola scriptura. St. Paul says to hold fast to what we’ve been taught, both by word and by what is written. The bible comes from Tradition…Tradition does not come from the bible. It’s both Luth. Both.
Good thing you’re not Mormon.
How do you know this?
Now that’s the spirit !
True !
Serving God includes following the teachings of The Lord.
Luth, when in Christian history were women ever allowed to be priests…or pastors? This is not what Christ taught the apostles, nor is it what the apostles taught their descendants through time. If you don’t believe the Catholics, ask the Orthodox.
You need to take this up with management…it’s a management issue. It is not a man made tradition. Again, when did women first become Priests or Pastors in Christian history?
This is very Catholic…love the sinner, hate the sin. But sin is sin and Truth is Truth. We need to as Christians stand up for what is Holy and the Truth.
(ps…don’t tell Jon you are ELCA…it’s better if he thinks you are LCMS).
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Luth123
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I can’t because I use the term Bible but really mean the Bible, Apocrypha, Catholic only books and even some of the recently released gnostic books. Various book were written at various times , but through all the translation and interpretations I believe the message is preserved. I think it’s obvious word for word the Bible and especially the non-canonical books are not inerrant.Luth123, You believe that the bible is inerrant and inspired based on faith. Fill in the blank Luth, same word for each blank.
"I believe that the bible is inerrant and inspired because the ______ Church said it was…and I thus believe that the _____ Church was infallible in selecting the books of the canon.
I do a lot of reading and interpreting for myself. You would probably call me my own Pope. I’m still trying to get through all the recent gnostic literature. Gnosticism is a very interesting perspective and it’s a shame the Catholic Church eliminated it as heresy.
Touché … I’ll just say it was a very different time. 99% of people could not read and needed educated people to teach them. I like to think nowdays intelligent people don’t need to be taught someone’s interpretation. They can read it themselves.
That’s some interesting literature. Good thing John Smith fit all the characteristics of a false prophet and was very poor at defining what he called Christianity otherwise we all might following his fiction.
Faith otherwise known as anti-Catholic doctrine. Protestant dogma.
The Orthodox are just Catholics without a Pope.
Society of Friends (Quakers) have allowed women to serve as ministers since the early 1800s. I don’t think preserving sexist views is a good position for any church regardless of the past. Society is very different now. A thousand+ years ago women in most cultures were property. Why would we expect women to have leadership roles in the male dominated church. The Gospel of Mary if you believe any truth to the fragments paints a very different picture about women in the early church. Also take a look at pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/women.html
It’s not as black and white as was previously thought.
All true, but he who sinless should cast the first stone. We should let God decide. We all sin. Sin is sin. I think the concept of Dante’s Inferno is in everyone’s head causing one to think about levels of sin.
I’ve been to LCMS services and they are very very similar to the ELCA. It really just social issues that they differ. I would like to see Jon’s response.
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Godisgreat23
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Sola scriptura is just something that came 500 years ago. The early church didn’t have a bible the Illiteracy rates were so high only 1/10 people knew how to read ( it isn’t very high today about 50 percent of the world can read). People used Animal skin ( atleast 90 sheeps) or plant skin (papyrus) if they wanted to have a bible. It would cost 3 years wage if someone wanted to have the bible and they would have to have to be hand written - Imagine the time it would take
Think about the era before the printing press and xerox not the modern days…
If everything was meant to be explicitly written down why are these verses there in the bible?
John 21:25
But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
John 20:30-31
Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.
Jesus never ever commanded the disciples to write anything down… Jesus himself didn’t write anything down (apart from the parable of the adulterous women where he said if anyone of you haven’t sinned be the first to stone her)
Think about the era before the printing press and xerox not the modern days…
If everything was meant to be explicitly written down why are these verses there in the bible?
John 21:25
But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
John 20:30-31
Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.
Jesus never ever commanded the disciples to write anything down… Jesus himself didn’t write anything down (apart from the parable of the adulterous women where he said if anyone of you haven’t sinned be the first to stone her)
I’m not exactly sure what you mean by your terminology. Luther’s translation is called Die Bibel, and includes the “Apocrypha” (what Catholics call the Deteurocanonical books), and the Prayer of Manasseh. I am wiling to accept that as “The Bible”.
Interpret away, on something like this, but not on doctrine. As Lutherans, we leave doctrine to the Church.
Chemnitz disagrees. * "This is also certain, that no one should rely on his own wisdom in the interpretation of the Scripture, not even in the clear passages… "*
I think our Orthodox friends would take umbrage with this remark.
All due respect to Society of Friends, but I’m not sure they are necessarily the example we as Lutherans should take for determining who should and should not be ordained Lutheran priests. If we are sola scripturists, and Lutherans, we determine these things from scripture, read through the lens of the Confessions. So, from scripture and the confessions, I’d like to see where the historic Church, from Pentecost forward, was wrong about male-only ordination.
Mostly. Lutheran liturgical worship (Luther’s mass) is going to be similar worldwide. And most areas of doctrine are going to be the same. It is where social issues and political preferences interfere with doctrine that we see problems, such as the one mentioned - the historical, scriptural, and confessional understanding of who can and can’t be ordained. This interference almost always comes from the liberal/modernist side. That’s why you see LCMS Pres. Harrison standing with the USCCB before Congress protesting the HHS Mandate, but Bishop Hanson is conspicuous by his absence.
Jon
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joe370
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:yup:
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JohnVIII
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Yes! It is a shame indeed!
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Porknpie
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Gnosticism is not what Jesus taught his disciples and the disciples taught their descendants.
It was around before Jesus…the bible does not tell us to follow it and we can see an early Church, rooted in the apostolic faith, speaking out against it.
Good article on Gnosticism and the gnostic writings is here
Best to follow those that Jesus taught…and those that followed those that Jesus taught.
Pork
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aidanbradypop
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Well said.
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EvangelCatholic
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Those Protestants who profess the catholic creeds [Apostles, Nicene and Athanasian] follow the tradition of the early Church. Among that group there is considerable difference in worship, sacraments, holy orders, etc.
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aidanbradypop
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If they followed the tradition of the Early Church…they would still be Catholic.
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EvangelCatholic
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I agree and why Lutherans/ Anglicans believe they are Catholics.If they followed the tradition of the Early Church…they would still be Catholic.
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aidanbradypop
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MaryT777
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Lochias
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If that’s so, they should have no problem accepting the authority of the Pope.
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EvangelCatholic
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For many Lutherans there is no problem accepting the Pope as the spiritual authority of the Church. The issue of papal infallibility is what divides us.If that’s so, they should have no problem accepting the authority of the Pope.
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