Aren't protestants following tradition too?

[Lochias]

For many Lutherans there is no problem accepting the Pope as the spiritual authority of the Church. The issue of papal infallibility is what divides us.

It would seem to be exceedingly difficult to accept the spiritual authority of the Church, if the Pope were unable to make infallible statements about the Church.

You can’t have both…it’s not an either / or, it’s a both / none. One does not work without the other.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

It would seem to be exceedingly difficult to accept the spiritual authority of the Church, if the Pope were unable to make infallible statements about the Church.

You can’t have both…it’s not an either / or, it’s a both / none. One does not work without the other.

I disagree particularly since papal infallibility did not exist in the Church until the 1860’s. Orthodox and all other Christians believe the Holy Spirit guides the Body of Christ. All bishops are equal. The Bishop of Rome, however, holds a unique place in Christianity. No argument with declarations affirming the immaculate conception and assumption of the most blessed Virgin Mary. But to say that the Pope is infallible in every utterance is unacceptable to Lutherans.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I disagree particularly since papal infallibility did not exist in the Church until the 1860’s. Orthodox and all other Christians believe the Holy Spirit guides the Body of Christ. All bishops are equal. The Bishop of Rome, however, holds a unique place in Christianity. No argument with declarations affirming the immaculate conception and assumption of the most blessed Virgin Mary. But to say that the Pope is infallible in every utterance is unacceptable to Lutherans.

Many Christians believe the Body of Christ to be the believer and not the Church. Are the all guided by the HS? What of two Baptist ministers that preach a different message?

 

[Lochias]

I disagree particularly since papal infallibility did not exist in the Church until the 1860’s.

Source, please? Something like papal infallibility didn’t just pop up out of nowhere.

Orthodox and all other Christians believe the Holy Spirit guides the Body of Christ.

Catholics believe that also; we simply acknowledge that that guidance takes place primarily through the authority of the Church; and frankly, it makes a lot of sense. Jesus was very kind to leave us tangible, visible authority so that we don’t have to wonder and be confused, I think.

The Bishop of Rome, however, holds a unique place in Christianity. No argument with declarations affirming the immaculate conception and assumption of the most blessed Virgin Mary.

Awesome.

But to say that the Pope is infallible in every utterance is unacceptable to Lutherans.

No Catholic here has said anything about the Pope’s “every utterance” being infallible. As the leader of our Church, we listen and follow closely to all the things he has to say, but there have only been a handful of actual, infallible pronouncements from the Popes in history from their position of authority, ex cathedra. The affirmation of the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary is one of those.

Does it not at all make sense to you that Jesus would have left Christians a leader that can make those sorts of declarations, so as to unerringly guide his people? Jesus didn’t leave the Apostles alone to figure things out for themselves; neither did he do so with us.

 

[Daniel_Lysinger]

Don’t worry, the Pope is only infallible when he speaks “ex cathedra” or “out of the chair” (of Peter). This is very rare, by the way.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvangelCatholic
I disagree particularly since papal infallibility did not exist in the Church until the 1860’s.

Nope! Infallibility has existed since day one because Jesus promised the church the Holy Spirit. Second of all, do you feel the same about the Trinity since it was not made official until 325 AD? What year a doctrine is ratified has no bearing on doctrinal truth.

 

[Luth123]

Nope! Infallibility has existed since day one because Jesus promised the church the Holy Spirit. Second of all, do you feel the same about the Trinity since it was not made official until 325 AD? What year a doctrine is ratified has no bearing on doctrinal truth.

Do you honestly believe God is going to send people to hell because they don’t believe or understand the Trinity as defined by the early Church? God will judge people based on their heart not some understanding of doctrine.

The Pope is like any other other person except he is just leading the Catholic Church just like Bishop Mark Hanson is leading the ELCA Church. Both are sinful as we all are.

It’s very simple…
Catholics value tradition as a requirement of salvation. Protestants put much less and most cases no value in tradition as a requirement of salvation. . There is no need to bring up doctrine after doctrine to bicker about…

 

[aidanbradypop]

Do you honestly believe God is going to send people to hell because they don’t believe or understand the Trinity as defined by the early Church? God will judge people based on their heart not some understanding of doctrine.

The Pope is like any other other person except he is just leading the Catholic Church just like Bishop Mark Hanson is leading the ELCA Church. Both are sinful as we all are.

It’s very simple…
Catholics value tradition as a requirement of salvation. Protestants put much less and most cases no value in tradition as a requirement of salvation. . There is no need to bring up doctrine after doctrine to bicker about…

I do not believe it was ever stated that God is sending them to Hell. I will give you a B+ for effort.

Indeed the Pope is like any other person. He puts his pants on the same way I due, however, he is the Vicar of Christ and I am not. Also I would not compare the Pope with Mr. Hanson.

It is very simple. That is why I cannot understand why it is so hard for some to understand and accept Tradition.

 

[Peebo]

It seemed pretty clear to this ol’ one time Pentacostal that when Jesus told Peter “upon this rock I will build my church”…and…" if you do not drink my blood and eat my body you do not have life in you"…then that is what he meant…so I used to ask my Protestant Pastors and friends why they didn’t believe what Jesus said…they said that he (Jesus) didn’t really mean what he said…the usual brush-offs were…“don’t be ridiculous…how are we expected to literaly eat his body and drink his blood…it’s just symbolic”…as for Peter being the “Rock”…that was just as ridiculous…"it could mean a stone or a tiny pebble…it was in fact Peters statement of who Jesus was…and that he Jesus was the actual “Rock”…that was hard to grasp as we were supposed to read and understand the bible in the literal sense…that’s when I started to realize that as Protestants we were actually still “protesting” against the Catholic Church…so scripture had to be re-interpreted after the reformation otherwise there would be nothing to protest against…there are of course many devoted followers of Christ among our Protestant brothers and sisters…it’s sad as a former Protestant that they are missing out on the full beauty… richness and history that is found in Catholicism because at one time we were all one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church… Episcopalians…Lutherans and Orthodox christians are in fact Catholic in many of their practices…lets hope and pray that some of these may become “ordinariates” as indeed some Episcopalian churches already have.

 

[Tomster]

Do you honestly believe God is going to send people to hell because they don’t believe or understand the Trinity as defined by the early Church? God will judge people based on their heart not some understanding of doctrine.

The Pope is like any other other person except he is just leading the Catholic Church just like Bishop Mark Hanson is leading the ELCA Church. Both are sinful as we all are.

It’s very simple…
Catholics value tradition as a requirement of salvation. Protestants put much less and most cases no value in tradition as a requirement of salvation. . There is no need to bring up doctrine after doctrine to bicker about…

Spoken like a real Gnostic, but who’s bickering?

There is a real need to bring up doctrine after doctrine for without them you really have no way of knowing what supernatural truth is. For you see that Tradition is literally a “handing on,” referring to a passing down of God’s revealed word. As such it has two closely related but distinct meanings. Tradition first means all of divine revelation, from the dawn of human histiry to the end of the apostolic age, as passed on from one generation of believers to the next, and as preserved under divine guidance by the Church established by Christ.

Sacred Tradition more technically also means, within this transmitted revelation, that part of God’s revealed word which is not contained in Scripture.

I’m sure your Bishop Mark promulgates his own brand of tradition when he preaches from the pulpit on Sunday morning.

 

[Tomster]

I do not believe it was ever stated that God is sending them to Hell. I will give you a B+ for effort.

Indeed the Pope is like any other person. He puts his pants on the same way I due, however, he is the Vicar of Christ and I am not. Also I would not compare the Pope with Mr. Hanson.

It is very simple. That is why I cannot understand why it is so hard for some to understand and accept Tradition.

It’s not that they don’t acccept tradition, they do. They just don’t accept Sacred Tradition. They accept the traditions of men, a real no-no according to Scriptures.

For them to accept Sacred Tradition would mean they would have to give up their own man-made theories, constructs and models and accept real authority. It’s not in their playbook. Everything, doctrinally speaking, is in a state of flux, up for grabs, depending on their perception of how the Holy Spirit is working on each individual.

If you think about it, it really is blasphemous for them to believe the Holy Spirit works in such a manner. But then, the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not that big of a deal for some of them.

 

[Porknpie]

Do you honestly believe God is going to send people to hell because they don’t believe or understand the Trinity as defined by the early Church? God will judge people based on their heart not some understanding of doctrine.

Luth123, what does the bible say one must do to enter eternal life?

The Pope is like any other other person except he is just leading the Catholic Church just like Bishop Mark Hanson is leading the ELCA Church.

As a person yes, as part of his office, no…

Catholics value tradition as a requirement of salvation.

Please show me in the Catechism of the Catholic Church where tradition is a requirement of salvation. I’ve never heard this one before. We are saved “by grace, through faith, working in love”…through a faith I might add that is completed in works as scripture says.

James 2
21 Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works

Protestants put much less and most cases no value in tradition as a requirement of salvation

Not true…there are many protestant traditions not rooted in the bible or Tradition…

• Once saved always saved
• Saved by Faith alone
• A bible with only 66 books that are inspired and inerrant
• Sola scriptura
• Symbolic baptism, not sacramental
• Baptism to the age of reason, not infant
• Symbolic bread and wine…or grape juice
• Women priests
• Support of gay marraige
• Support of contraception
• Support of abortion
• and on…

Protestants have many traditions that they have invented over time…and I can tie all the above to the question of Salvation

There is no need to bring up doctrine after doctrine to bicker about…

Doctrine after doctrine is brought up to highlight the error… Protestantism presents a new gospel and the bible itself says to not do that in Galatians 1:8.

Who’s bickering…just stating facts.

Pork

 

[Luth123]

Luth123, what does the bible say one must do to enter eternal life?

Must we really go down this path yet again. You know what Protestants always just say John 14:6 . So what is the usual catholic response?
I’m getting little tired of this senseless doctrine bickering.

As a person yes, as part of his office, no…

Hmm so because Tradition says so: the Pope is perfect while in office but transforms to a pion like everyone else while he’s off the job… Really? That’s pretty funny.

Please show me in the Catechism of the Catholic Church where tradition is a requirement of salvation. I’ve never heard this one before. We are saved “by grace, through faith, working in love”…through a faith I might add that is completed in works as scripture says

I don’t have access to your traditional doctrine. Nor am I interested in arguing man made tradition when John 14:6 tells me everything I need to know to be saved.

James 2
21 Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works

Not true…there are many protestant traditions not rooted in the bible or Tradition…

• Once saved always saved
• Saved by Faith alone
• A bible with only 66 books that are inspired and inerrant
• Sola scriptura
• Symbolic baptism, not sacramental
• Baptism to the age of reason, not infant
• Symbolic bread and wine…or grape juice
• Women priests
• Support of gay marraige
• Support of contraception
• Support of abortion
• and on…

Oh please and do you eat pork, shellfish or hoofed animals (not the last one haha)… of course you can and probably do because that was a completely different convent with God that has no relevance to Christians other than acknowledging the common history with the Jewish people.

Colossians 3:22 – “Slaves obey your earthly masters…”
So why are you not beating on a slave to type faster for you on your computer?

Ephesians 5:22 – “Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as …”
So if a women’s husband beats and rapes her is she just supposed to live with it?

The point is the Bible was written for those thousands+ years ago so obviously slavery is accepted, women are property etc etc.

What world do you live in? You can’t possibly live in this world with pure Bible beliefs, this is EXACTLY why tradition is so meaningless. Tradition is nothing more than man made rules that were accepted by the men in power in a period of time in the past.

 

[Porknpie]

Must we really go down this path yet again. You know what Protestants always just say John 14:6 . So what is the usual catholic response?
I’m getting little tired of this senseless doctrine bickering.

Luth, I’m not bickering…just asking, I can’t think of any question more important in life that asking what one must do to be saved.

Hmm so because Tradition says so: the Pope is perfect while in office but transforms to a pion like everyone else while he’s off the job… Really? That’s pretty funny.

Perfect when on declaring a doctrine to be true on faith and morals, together with the Bishops. He can sin both on and off the job… CAF Tract here.. Tradition doesn’t say so, Christ says so as the tract explains.

I don’t have access to your traditional doctrine.

Sure you do…see here for free. Bookmark it. . That’s a really good deal.

Nor am I interested in arguing man made tradition when John 14:6 tells me everything I need to know to be saved.

John 14: 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Catholics believe everything about John 14:6 …but not your interpretation of it. What else does Jesus say one must do to be saved? You are missing a few … Directly from Jesus himself.

Oh please and do you eat pork, shellfish or hoofed animals (not the last one haha)… of course you can and probably do because that was a completely different convent with God that has no relevance to Christians other than acknowledging the common history with the Jewish people.

Here’s a great book on convenantal theology from Scott Hahn…link here. No relevance? Read the book.

What world do you live in?

I live in a world where the Chicago Cubs may never win a World Series before the second coming.

You can’t possibly live in this world with pure Bible beliefs, this is EXACTLY why tradition is so meaningless. Tradition is nothing more than man made rules that were accepted by the men in power in a period of time in the past.

Tradition and the OHCAC brought you your bible Luth123. St Ignatius was a disciple of St John. That’s a pretty good Tradition.

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. **Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” **Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

A Church guided to all truth by the Holy Spirit.

John 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

 

[Godisgreat23]

The most important doctrine of the bible can’t be found in the bible

THE CANON OF SCRIPTURES! how do we know there are 27 books who decided the books? Even though protestants reject the old testament canon the new testament canon is similar

logically you should reject the new testament canon too because it can’t be found in the bible! if the papacy didn’t decide the 27 books then who did?

“We are obliged to yield many things to the Papists–that with them is the Word of God, which we received from them; otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it.”- Martin Luther

Martin Luther himself admits in his Commentary on St. John (ch. 16)

you accept the canon and reject the church?