Arguing about how to receive Holy Communion

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Again, you’re personalising this. I have not ‘bashed’ anyone I know of. I have bashed a practice. I’m not scouting people either.

Sure, God sees all. This issue is about how we, as a group, should address Him, in a public, communal, ordered rite.

Pray how you like at home, but at an organised public ritual, there have to be rules of behaviour.
 
Again, you’re personalising this. I have not ‘bashed’ anyone I know of. I have bashed a practice. I’m not scouting people either.
sorry, but that statement wasn’t just for you. i’m just saying, you’re saying this forum is for Traditional Catholics. i agree. but it shouldn’t become a bashing forum for those who conform to OF practices which are valid (barring any abuses)
Sure, God sees all. This issue is about how we, as a group, should address Him, in a public, communal, ordered rite.

Pray how you like at home, but at an organised public ritual, there have to be rules of behaviour.
yes. and what have you called out so far? standing and receiving CITH? the rules allow for this, so you really have nothing to complain about
 
Hee hee, it’s allowed by the Church. I’m proposing why it should not be.

Here’s what I think happened:

CITH, standing, in the fire of the revolution that preceded, included and surpassed the 1960’s …
  1. Seemed like a way to ‘add value’ to what was effectively a New Latin Rite;
  2. Seemed like a way to get back to a more ‘authentic’ recreation of the Last Supper;
  3. Was a way of being daring and cocking a snook at the ‘establishment’ of a ‘rigid’ hierarchy clinging to old modes of thought;
  4. Was less humiliating than kneeling down and being hand-fed in public;
  5. Was seen on holiday in Holland and when the first nun or layperson put their hand out at the altar rails in Boise, Idaho, the presiding priest didn’t have enough conviction so say “no”.
  6. Was something the laity started copying when others did it.
  7. Was a fashion, a trend. Something new to try.
Number 2. above ignores a practice about 1500 years old, which I’m guessing was introduced for pretty solid reasons.
  • ‘It should be done because it’s allowed’ is bad reasoning.
-Why should Roman Catholics drop their own ancient practice for an Eastern rite one, without some other compelling reason?
  • ‘Interior disposition’ could excuse any outer nonsense. There has to be ordered, purposeful, outer, collective behaviour for a Mass to exist at all. If that is so, then we can debate the merits, or otherwise, of CITH, in helping or inhibiting the purpose of the Mass.
 
It doesn’t apply becuase without ‘externals’, there is no Mass.
So then I take it you are answering no to my question: “Do you agree that internals are more important to God than externals?”

If you cannot answer that question, than I really do think you should reread the scripture quote a few more times until it makes sense.

You say my question doesn’t apply because without externals there is no Mass. I don’t see how that gets you out of answering the question. Without internals there is no Mass, either, because there are no people.

Maybe I can ask another question at this point: Given what knowledge God has revealed to us through His Word and His Church, do we think God would rather have a person at a beautiful Mass with a cold heart, or a person not at Mass with a renewed heart and mind? I admit that’s very subjective but I just can’t understand what is it about internals that you don’t think is important so I’m trying to “draw you out” here. So far I can’t believe you think internals can be blithely disregarded, so there must be another reason you avoided the question.

Alan
 
If it is objectively better for Roman Catholics it has to be objectively better for all Catholics and the Church would have to be arguing against the practices of the Eastern Catholics that are even older than those that the traditionalists prefer.
You’re making that assumption, I’m not. By their own admission, Eastern Catholics have not had to deal with the number of innovations in their liturgies as the Western world has seen in theirs. It’s the change and forced acceptance of those changes which seem to be the problem, not the objective elements of which you speak. Put in another way, there’s a psychology of adjustment that’s in play here, whether you choose to see it or not. I have no problem with the way the Eastern world does things. In fact, I admire them for holding fast to their traditions and customs.
 
Errr… I guess God would like as much beauty and reverence as possible in a public, ordered rite of worship and propitiation of Himself. Or alternatively, I doubt he’s too pleased that the knife has been taken to the Latin Rite by the likes of Abp. Bugnini.

Hee hee, I can be interiorly reverent right now. Or on a bus. I can have the most sublime experience of internal reverence praying at home. What does that matter to any other mortal in my presence? Not a thing. They can’t perceive it.

But attending a Roman Catholic Mass I expect more than an assembly of individuals communing with God individually. I think that’s what Quakers do(?)

What does God expect of us at a Mass,** when the assembly of the Faithful, lead by their priest, becomes an entity in itself? How should it behave?**

You’re creating a false dichotomy. You’re trying to say individual feelings should take precedence in a public, communal, ordered rite, especially when there’s no way to gauge the former.

Still, consider this: Want to know which Mass God prefers? Look at their fruits.
 
Hee hee, I can be interiorly reverent right now. Or on a bus. I can have the most sublime experience of internal reverence praying at home. What does that matter to any other mortal in my presence? Not a thing. They can’t perceive it.

Still, consider this: Want to know which Mass God prefers? Look at their fruits.
I love the picture you have painted of yourself. 🙂 I think you can be interiorly reverent and at peace, experiencing the fruit of the Spirit, all the while writing posts that for whatever reason compel me to write one back. 😛

Alan
 
As far as I can tell, “because it’s allowed” is reason that the CITH apologists give most often in these discussions. It isn’t an assumption to the say this is a reason. It’s an observation.
Unfortuntely the claim made was that those who prefer CITH have no good reasons. While the fact that it is allowed and licit is indeed A reason it is by far not the only reason. There have been many people in the many threads on the subject that have offered their good and reasonable reasons. To make a statement that those who prefer CITH don’t have anything beyond “because it’s allowed” is both factually incorrect and triumphalistic.
You continue to misunderstand the definition of “objective”. It has been posted (#157, as I recall). Please reread it. “Objective” does not mean eternal or unchangeable. It means observable rather than based on personal feelings. For example, it is an objective fact that the 1983 Code of Canon Law does not contain any canons about women covering their heads. It is objective because anyone who reads the CCC can see this for himself. I like the custom of women covering their heads. That is a subjective fact. It is based on personal feelings. Neither of these of these facts is unchangeable. The 1917 Code did have a canon about head-covering. At one time I was indifferent to the custom. The objective/subjective distinction has nothing to do with whether things change.
No, I most assuredly do NOT misunderstand the meaning of objective truth. Just because a definition was offered does not mean that it is either the only definition or that it is being correctly understood. The definition of the simple word “objective”, when used to contrast with “subjective”, is correctly understood to imply being based on observable fact rather than personal interpretation. But an “objective truth”, which is what is being claimed in this discussion, goes well beyond that simplistic definition.

“By definition, objective truth is absolute truth. The truth of an objective claim is defined to be entirely independent of subjective, or personal, influences. That is, if something is objectively true, then it is true for everyone. A subjective truth, on the other hand, is relative to the person who asserts it.”

Even if one confines the “everyone” to Catholics, claiming a discipline to have objective truth is an incorrect application. Proclaiming one’s personally-preferred discipline, which is one of many that exists and has existed within the Church and which can change tomorrow, to be “objectively true and better” is nothing more than expressing a personal opinion.
 
What’s uncharitable about debating the demerits of CITH?
The statement quoted had nothing to do with debating the merits or demerits of anything at all. It was nothing more than a triumphalistic, “holier than thou” proclamation that those who prefer CITH have no reason other than “it is allowed”, which could not be further from the truth even if it wasn’t completely adequate.
** And what are these good reasons? I’ve asked for these many times.**
And while nobody is required to acceed to your demands they have been given by many people in every single thread on the subject. Unfortunately the response is to just reject out of hand anything that does not agree with the predetermined conclusion and then claim that nothing has been offered. Quite frankly, it would be just as legitimate for the other “side” to make the claim that all the COTT proponents have to fall back on is “we’ve done it that way for a long time and we don’t want to change.” Neither claim is either charitable or a correct characterization.
It’s a public rite, with rules. We’re discussing those here. No one can see your inner disposition. We can see outer behaviour.
And again, there is absolutely nothing to be gained by judging that approved outer behavior which has established “rules” that are indeed followed. That is the whole point. It becomes nothing more than a distraction from focusing on God while preparing to receive him in the sacrament. It is the prayer of “Lord thank you for not making me like those other so-called Catholics who don’t know how to worship you properly.” If God is pleased with someone’s inner disposition who the heck are you to be making judgments about the outer? If someone is indulging in something illicit I can fully agree that it would be distracting but if not it’s time to get a life and focus your attention where it belongs.
How is changing to receiving standing up, from the hand of a layperson, a way of expressing humility?
Asked and answered innumerable times. In the end it’s a matter of humility because the person doing it considers it so. Humility is not observable so you don’t get to judge what external indicates it.
We’re Roman Catholics. Just because something is done, in a different, Eastern rite, is no reason for it to be plucked out of context and adopted by us.
Number one, it wasn’t “plucked” from an Eastern Rite though there are Eastern Rites that have practiced it from the beginning.

More important is the entire mindset of COTT being “better” as an “objective truth.” An objective truth must be true for the entire population and COTT most assuredly doesn’t even come close, even within the Roman population given the diffferent norms through its history. There is a huge difference that is consistently missed here between being more appropriate–which is a subjective decision–and being “objectively better.” All of us are equally Catholic and Roman Catholics have no claim to be objectively better nor do their practices have such a claim.

I fully agree that it would be inappropriate to go into an Eastern liturgy and demand to receive COTT. It would be equally inappropriate to go into a RC liturgy and demand one of the Eastern practices. That does not mean however that either is objectively better, only that one is more culturally-suited to liturgy where it is the norm. That doesn’t mean though that in making a decision to return CITH the Roman church couldnt be informed by the experience of the Eastern churches where it is used.

On the other hand, CITH was indeed practiced and was the norm within the Roman church for centuries. It was replaced in the Roman church at some point because of fear of specific heresies occurring though it did not disappear and continued unabated in Eastern liturgies. In the 60’s and 70’s it was resurrected in the Roman church, though admittedly to an initial negative reaction.

Over time however, for whatever reason, the Church either satisfied itself relative to the objections or decided that there was enough interest to let it be used where it was desired by those who felt it was a better form for their constituencies.

One is certainly entitled to feel it isn’t appropriate or to feel it isn’t as reverent since we are allowed to disagree about the prudence of disciplines. One does need to keep in mind however that there is no objective truth to that position and that it is a subjective preference. That doesn’t lead to any conclusion that we could or should just transplant Eastern practices into Roman liturgy–though this is not what is happening here–it simply means that given the wealth of different methods of receiving communion within the Catholic Church, Eastern and Roman, one cannot make any claim of one being “objectively better” which by definition means that in and of itself, in its nature, it is better than any alternative.

In the end it is this belief in “objective superiority”, which is really nothing more than subjective preference, that fuels the arguments and the misplaced judgments. If there really is catechesis needed in the matter it is catechesis on avoiding the “near occasion of sin” of being drawn into judgment of brothers and sisters about such things. The New Testament is full of examples and cautions against it from pretty much every one of the writers along with Jesus himself.

Peace,
 
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ncjohn:
If there really is catechesis needed in the matter it is catechesis on avoiding the “near occasion of sin” of being drawn into judgment of brothers and sisters about such things. The New Testament is full of examples and cautions against it from pretty much every one of the writers along with Jesus himself.
Well said, John. 👍

Our Lord is always on time when He speaks to us through the daily readings. Today’s psalm:

“You sit speaking against your brother;
against your mother’s son you spread rumors.
When you do these things, shall I be deaf to it?
Or do you think that I am like yourself?
I will correct you by drawing them up before your eyes.”
 
Hee hee, it’s allowed by the Church. I’m proposing why it should not be.

Here’s what I think happened:

CITH, standing, in the fire of the revolution that preceded, included and surpassed the 1960’s …
  1. Seemed like a way to ‘add value’ to what was effectively a New Latin Rite;
  2. Seemed like a way to get back to a more ‘authentic’ recreation of the Last Supper;
  3. Was a way of being daring and cocking a snook at the ‘establishment’ of a ‘rigid’ hierarchy clinging to old modes of thought;
  4. Was less humiliating than kneeling down and being hand-fed in public;
  5. Was seen on holiday in Holland and when the first nun or layperson put their hand out at the altar rails in Boise, Idaho, the presiding priest didn’t have enough conviction so say “no”.
  6. Was something the laity started copying when others did it.
  7. Was a fashion, a trend. Something new to try.
Number 2. above ignores a practice about 1500 years old, which I’m guessing was introduced for pretty solid reasons.
  • ‘It should be done because it’s allowed’ is bad reasoning.
-Why should Roman Catholics drop their own ancient practice for an Eastern rite one, without some other compelling reason?
  • ‘Interior disposition’ could excuse any outer nonsense. There has to be ordered, purposeful, outer, collective behaviour for a Mass to exist at all. If that is so, then we can debate the merits, or otherwise, of CITH, in helping or inhibiting the purpose of the Mass.
the problem is when you defend COTT, are you being charitable to those who receive CITH? can you elevate COTT without degrading CITH? by calling CITH unrespectful, you’re not only attacking the practice, but those who practice CITH too. and this causes a confusion, because CITH is allowed by the Church, so if it is unrespectful, then the Church is allowing disrespect. so its not only a challenge to those who practice it, but to the Church itself who allows it.

there have been many false assumptions on why people receive CITH and frankly its uncharitable and unfair to make such assumptions, most of them are negative. one claim you make is that these people receive CITH because they want to touch the Lord. but then again, another person posted on these forums (i read it a while back) stated that the only reason they switched to CITH is because they hate the priest touching their tongues, and possibly the tongues of others, which they feel is unsanitary. its a simple as that, and the fact that they have a choice to change their mode of reception.

if you really think that COTT is objectively better, then you should be able to make a case for it without having to degrade CITH. to make an analogy for it, say COTT and CITH are on the ground floor of a building. if COTT is better, then you should be able to get it up to the 10th floor leaving CITH in the ground floor. whats happening is COTT remains on the ground floor, while CITH is being pushed down to the basement. this is unfair to the people who practice it, and to the Church who allows it
 
Conditions in the indult:
If the American hierarchy had legitimately fulfilled the Holy See’s requirements up to this point, there would still be several conditions that would have to be met in each instance of Communion in the hand, or no permission could be given. Included in these conditions are that no irreverence, sacrilege, or loss of faith occur as a result of Communion in the hand. Five conditions follow:
  1. The new manner of giving Communion must not be imposed in a way such as taunting?] that would exclude the traditional practice. It is a matter of particular seriousness that in places where the new practice is lawfully permitted, every one of the faithful have the option to receive Communion on the tongue, even when others receive Communion in the hand. The two ways of receiving Communion can without question take place during the same liturgical service. There is a twofold purpose here: that none will find in the new rite anything disturbing to personal devotion toward the Eucharist; that this sacrament, the source and cause of unity by its very nature, will not become an occasion of discord between members of the faithful.
  1. The rite of Communion in the hand must not be put into practice indiscriminately. Since the question involves human attitudes, this manner of Communion is bound up with the perceptiveness and preparation of the one receiving. It is advisable, therefore, that the rite be introduced gradually and in the beginning, within small, better-prepared groups and in favorable settings. Above all it is necessary to have the introduction of the rite preceded by an effective catechesis, so that the people will clearly understand the meaning of receiving in the hand and will practice it with the reverence owed to the Sacrament. **This catechesis must succeed in excluding any suggestion that in the mind of the Church there is a lessening of faith in the Eucharistic presence and in excluding as well any danger or hint of **danger of profaning the Eucharist.
  1. The option offered to the faithful of receiving the Eucharistic Bread in their hand and putting it in their own mouth **must not turn out to be the occasion for regarding It as ordinary bread **or as just another religious article. Instead this option must increase in them a consciousness of the dignity of the members of Christ’s Mystical Body, into which they are incorporated by Baptism and by the grace of the Eucharist. It must also increase their faith in the sublime reality of the Lord’s Body and Blood, which they touch with their hand. Their attitude of reverence must measure up to what they are doing.
  1. [Condition #4 was eliminated on the occasion of the publication of De sacra Communione et du cultu Mysterii Eucharistichi (n. 21), July 21, 1973].
  1. Whatever procedure is adopted, care must be taken not to allow particles of the Eucharistic Bread to fall or be scattered. Care must also be taken that the communicants have clean hands and that their comportment is becoming and in keeping with the practices of the different peoples.
  1. In the case of Communion under both kinds by way of intinction, it is never permitted to place on the hand of the communicant the Host that has been dipped in the Lord’s Blood.
 
And once again, it seems impossibile for proponents of CITH, in the traditional Catholic sub-forum, to discuss its merits (still to be listed) or demerits (significant) without personalising the argument.

N.O. fan: CITH is allowed, so we should be allowed to do it!
Trad:* I disagree, and here’s why …*
N.O. fan: Judgemental, uncharitable Pharisee!

Personally, I’d rather not discuss it at all. It’s not part of traditional Roman Catholicism. To the TLM, I say! You know what you’re going to get and experimenters stand out a mile. We can thank the N.O. for saving the TLM from liturgical faddism.

Next up: TLM starts to be more widely available. The revolutonaries try to shoehorn their little wrinkles into the rite. Should be interesting!
 
I don’t really think it matters how you recieve communion, as long as you eat it. I’m not one for that wierd stuff I heard about here where someone akwardly gives a couple the wine to administer to each other which is clearly some wierd reference to Christ’s marriage and the Christian sexual view or whatever, but just eat it. I guess it can be a bit nerveracking taking it in your mouth though, a priest might touch your tongue or something wierd.
 
persuading people to believe what i believe in is one thing
denigrating people who prefer a different practice than one that i do is another thing

my stand has always been, there’s two ways today that the Church allows in most areas for reception of the Eucharist. do what each one feels to be the most reverent for them. i don’t think making people feel bad about a practice they do that is allowed by the Church is a good way to persuade people.
I have never denigrated anybody or tried to make anyone feel bad. I have only made comments about practices. You seem to be projecting something into my posts that is not there.

This is the main reason that I keep participating in these threads. There is a constant theme that anyone who says that COTT is objectively better is a big meanie and probably kicks puppies too. (Well maybe not the part about puppies.) I object to being characterized this way.
 
Unfortuntely the claim made was that those who prefer CITH have no good reasons. While the fact that it is allowed and licit is indeed A reason it is by far not the only reason. There have been many people in the many threads on the subject that have offered their good and reasonable reasons. To make a statement that those who prefer CITH don’t have anything beyond “because it’s allowed” is both factually incorrect and triumphalistic.
I cannot recall seeing any objective reason given other than “because it is allowed”. The other reasons I can remember are “it feels more reverent to me” and “I am more comfortable” which are subjective reasons. In my experience, trads tend to value objective reasons more than subjective ones. From the perspective of a person who is looking for objective reasons, there are no good reasons for CITH.
No, I most assuredly do NOT misunderstand the meaning of objective truth. Just because a definition was offered does not mean that it is either the only definition or that it is being correctly understood. The definition of the simple word “objective”, when used to contrast with “subjective”, is correctly understood to imply being based on observable fact rather than personal interpretation. But an “objective truth”, which is what is being claimed in this discussion, goes well beyond that simplistic definition.
What I have said is that COTT is objectively better. As I have explained before, what I mean by this is that it is better based on objective criteria. In other words, it is not subjective. I am not saying that it feels better to me. I am saying that there are observable facts which lead me to the conclusion that it is better. When I use “objective” in this context, it is precisely to contrast it with “subjective”. I have never claimed to be stating an absolute and timeless truth.
“By definition, objective truth is absolute truth. The truth of an objective claim is defined to be entirely independent of subjective, or personal, influences. That is, if something is objectively true, then it is true for everyone. A subjective truth, on the other hand, is relative to the person who asserts it.”

Even if one confines the “everyone” to Catholics, claiming a discipline to have objective truth is an incorrect application. Proclaiming one’s personally-preferred discipline, which is one of many that exists and has existed within the Church and which can change tomorrow, to be “objectively true and better” is nothing more than expressing a personal opinion.
Objective truth, like absolute truth, is not dependent on personal experiences. This does mean they are the same thing. Absolute truth is timeless and unchangeable. Objective truth is not necessarily so. This is not part of its definition. It is possible to be both objective and changeable. I gave an example in an earlier post. You are conflating two different concepts.
 
I have never denigrated anybody or tried to make anyone feel bad. I have only made comments about practices. You seem to be projecting something into my posts that is not there.

This is the main reason that I keep participating in these threads. There is a constant theme that anyone who says that COTT is objectively better is a big meanie and probably kicks puppies too. (Well maybe not the part about puppies.) I object to being characterized this way.
like i said in my other post, i don’t see anything wrong in someone saying COTT is better. there isn’t really. but oftentimes when one defends COTT as better, it involves in denigrating CITH, which of course is a spit in the face of those who practice CITH as well as the Church who allows it. if COTT is inherently better as you say it is, then that point can be made without saying anything negative about CITH. COTT being better should be able to speak for itself
 
I have no problem at all with someone who has never known any other way to receive other than ITH.

What I don’t understand is how a Roman Catholic who …
  1. truly believes in the Real Presence
  2. has been informed CITH was born of a total disregard of centuries of the norm by those who didn’t even get Rome’s permission to do so
  3. has been informed it was rejected by a strong majority of the Bishops of the Church when asked
…can continue receiving CITH “because we can”. I just don’t get it.

Cardinal Arinze said we should “crawl” to approach the Most Blessed Sacrament.

Listen to this Bishop tear the “at one time, it was allowed” argument to pieces.

newliturgicalmovement.org/2008/03/as-bishop-i-cannot-be-silent.html

Once the Church determined how precious a gift Christ The King gave us, it determined only the hands of the ordained may touch the Blessed Sacrament.

It’s very simple. We really should take the hint from H.H. BXVI.
 
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