Arguing for the existence of God how do you answer: the Designer needs a designer

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Nagarjuna rejects many forms of reification, “Existence” among them. Aristotle’s “Existence” was an attempt to impose permanence and fixity on a world that is impermanent and changing.
So, isn’t imposing upon the world the ideas of “impermanent and changing” also projecting human concepts “out into the world” as if those all too human ideas have “real external existence.” Aren’t you merely and capriciously “reifying” the ideas of impermanence and change as an alternative to reifying the ideas of permanence and fixity, and thus being a Nagarjunan pot calling the Aristotelian kettle, “black?”
 
Well I would say few things here.
  1. As some have argued, the very exsistance of God is of a necessary being.
    But I would say this might lead to further objections like : " Aren’t you defining God into exsistence "
    Which I would respond with : " I am just explaining the things we see in nature, and I see how it matches up to the definition of God as designer/creator . I think its reasonable to say then, that I am not defining God into exsistance, I am just using the definition of what we call God. I can call God a fishing tool. I don’t think saying that a rod is God is defining the rod as God to our liking. Its a reasonable conclusion made by the premises.
  2. The world is a physical “being”, and God is a non-physical being, he does not need to have the same physical grounds applied to him.
    3.You could answer to a similliar fashion of the “who caused God” argument. God is outside of time and space therefore not needing a design or any type of verb. Theese things such as design and him being came into conciveableness (if I can call it that ) at the first point in time t=0
 
Since God is the Eternal ‘I AM’ He exists outside of our linear plane…
Then we are not talking about time, which is the fourth dimension of our material universe/plane. If God exists in some higher dimension then we need a new vocabulary. Say God exists in the ‘faarn’ dimension, then we should express His unalterability in terms of faarn, not in terms of time. God changes in terms of time, but is static in terms of faarn: ‘faarnstatic’ say.

We would need a similar redefinition of other time-related terms: before, after, during etc.

rossum
 
Two points: Yes, one could still be the cause of the other. If one was metaphysically simple and the other not, it’d be a pretty good clue as to which one was dependent on the other. If not, still, analysis of the two might yield results.
You are assuming that the simple always causes the complex. That is not the case. I am more complex than this post, yet I caused this post.
But I think you misunderstand. There was no time before the start of the universe, but only the universe began to exist. God never began to exist. He simply just is.
In the absence of time there is no “before” or “after”. That destroys causation, since no proposed cause can be ‘before’ the alleged effect. You are telling us here that God could not have caused/created the universe any more then he can make a square triangle.

Using the Kalaam argument it is easy to show that time was not created. There was no time when time did not exist, so time does not need a cause. Time exists for all time. God may have created other things, but He did not create time, because time has existed for all time.

rossum
 
And you missed the point of the illustration, I’m not part of their one-dimensional timeline.
Looked at from inside the one dimensional line, then you change. If your God is outside our four dimensions, then we need to rework our vocabulary to include the God-dimension beyond our current four. See the word “faarn” in my reply to jcrichton above. In those terms your actions have changed in our four dimensional STEM universe, but they have not ‘faarnchanged’ in the extended ‘faarnuniverse’.

Movement in different dimensions can be independent. We can be static in one dimension while moving in another. ‘Faarn’ is just another dimension.

rossum
 
So answer me: Is there any connection between you now and when you made your prior post?
Yes. There is a chain of cause and effect between that younger person and the older me.

Buddhism sees the world as changing, with an illusory veneer of stasis in some places: things that appear to be unchanging are merely changing slowly. “Grass doesn’t grow. I watched a blade carefully for ten minutes and it didn’t grow at all.”

Much Western/Greek philosophy tends to see the world as static with a veneer of change in some places. I am more a follower of Hearclitus: You cannot step in the same river twice, because it is not the same river and you are not the same you.

rossum
 
You KNOW that, how?
Consider an arachnophobe. Their internal mental construct of a spider has all the usual: eight legs and the rest as well as an element of fear. The fear is purely internal, it is not part of the spider, but solely part of their internal mental construct ‘spider’.

That is the way our brain works, it constructs internal models and uses those models to help navigate the sense data is receiving down the sensory nerves. The incoming patterns are matched to those internal models. A certain set of incoming patterns match the model ‘spider’.

Because our senses are imperfect, those internal models are also imperfect, as with the fear attached to an arachnophobe’s model of a spider.

Projecting an imperfect internal model onto the real world is an error, in Buddhist terms is will lead to suffering. For example, someone’s internal model may contain “My spouse will love me forever.” That is an error, it ignores the “All humans die” model.

Imperfect senses result in imperfect internal models. Projecting those imperfect models back onto the external world results in a mismatch. In Buddhist terms, that mismatch is a cause of suffering.
How do you know for certain that people do not have a permanent soul?
Anything permanent cannot change. Can your soul change from unsaved to saved? Does Baptism have no effect? If your soul can change then it is not permanent. A permanent thing is the same at all times. If something is different at different times then it is not permanent.
Again you seem not merely to be reifying “internal human mental concepts” but your entire internal human perspective or point of view from which you make absolute pronouncements about reality.
I do not make absolute pronouncements. I make pronouncements. As you correctly point out, they are not absolute.

rossum
 
Hi, Rossum!

You’ve just made a gigantic stride into the future!

That is the reason why all the models don’t work.

We cannot place the infinite into the confines of the finite.

We cannot use the “paranormal” instruments to measure “God” energy.

We cannot use temporal laws to define and uncover that which exists beyond the physical realm.

It is akin to quantifying “love.” There are people who kill and destroy and they claim to love; there are people who hate and abuse those who are different from them, yet claim that they “love.”

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Again, has any of your traveling taken you away from your home? Have you noticed how welcoming your home is that very first day that you are back? Everything that is familiar to your brain comes at you… and you cannot recall a single reason why you left… even the first night’s sleep is fully enjoyed… did any of those conditions changed you?

Did you cease being Rossum by being home-sick (longing to be back in the familiar) or did you cease being Rossum by the new experiences to which you were exposed on your travels?

If you believe that those experiences caused you to change, then there’s no need to argue any further as God’s first descriptive term brings you to changing God.

Consider H2O: if it is in liquid, frozen or gaseous form it remains H20–from our perspective we would have witnessed three different forms of the same element… from the element’s perspective, it has not changed!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Have you noticed how welcoming your home is that very first day that you are back? Everything that is familiar to your brain comes at you…
My brain is mistaken, things are not the same. The food in the fridge is that much closer to its “Use by” date. I won’t be able to put off mowing the grass for as long as I could before I left. At this time of year there are more leaves to sweep up…

The model of “home” in my brain has just a few more differences from the real home.
Did you cease being Rossum by being home-sick (longing to be back in the familiar) or did you cease being Rossum by the new experiences to which you were exposed on your travels?
Are rossum’s memories part of rossum or not? If they are, then rossum has indeed changed because a part of rossum – the memories – has changed.

Things change. Ignoring change leads to a mismatch between internal mental modelling and the external world. That mismatch causes suffering. If we want to avoid suffering, then we should stop ignoring change and incorporate it into our models.
from the element’s perspective, it has not changed!
It has. In the three phases the water molecules have different levels of freedom of movement. In ice they are very restricted in a crystal lattice. As a liquid they are constrained to remain within the liquid. As a gas they are free to move throughout the entire volume.

(The new software accepts HTML angle-bracket tags for subscript: H< sub >2< /sub >O works: H2O.)

rossum
 
Hi, Rossum!

I have tried… but I can see that you are resolute in you determination to have the glass half-full or half-empty simultaneously and only as determined by your positive or negative viewing…

May the Holy Spirit Guide you into the enlightenment you seek.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
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Wesrock:
Two points: Yes, one could still be the cause of the other. If one was metaphysically simple and the other not, it’d be a pretty good clue as to which one was dependent on the other. If not, still, analysis of the two might yield results.
You are assuming that the simple always causes the complex. That is not the case. I am more complex than this post, yet I caused this post.
No, that’s not the logic here. Assuming there is nothing else but these two items you mentioned, then it must be stated the any level of complexity must require a cause. That which is absolutely metaphysically simple requires no causal explanation.
But I think you misunderstand. There was no time before the start of the universe, but only the universe began to exist. God never began to exist. He simply just is.
In the absence of time there is no “before” or “after”. That destroys causation, since no proposed cause can be ‘before’ the alleged effect. You are telling us here that God could not have caused/created the universe any more then he can make a square triangle.

Using the Kalaam argument it is easy to show that time was not created. There was no time when time did not exist, so time does not need a cause. Time exists for all time. God may have created other things, but He did not create time, because time has existed for all time.

rossum
I already anticipated this misconception you have, so to repeat myself verbatim:

And this is where it breaks down, you think I’m proposing some type of higher order of time, where God looks down on our four dimensional reality from his five dimensional space in which our time appears as a solid object but He has some fifth-dimensional version of time. That’s exactly NOT what we’re proposing. That’s not eternity. Eternity isn’t dimensional at all.
 
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Wesrock:
So answer me: Is there any connection between you now and when you made your prior post?
Yes. There is a chain of cause and effect between that younger person and the older me.

Buddhism sees the world as changing, with an illusory veneer of stasis in some places: things that appear to be unchanging are merely changing slowly. “Grass doesn’t grow. I watched a blade carefully for ten minutes and it didn’t grow at all.”

Much Western/Greek philosophy tends to see the world as static with a veneer of change in some places. I am more a follower of Hearclitus: You cannot step in the same river twice, because it is not the same river and you are not the same you.

rossum
The western world does not propose that the world is unchanging. Why you cast it that way I’ve no idea. Is it proper to say that the younger person who is linked to you by this chain of “cause and effect” was you? Certainly in some ways he was a different person, but is he absolutely and entirely and in all ways a different person?
 
Assuming there is nothing else but these two items you mentioned, then it must be stated the any level of complexity must require a cause. That which is absolutely metaphysically simple requires no causal explanation.
So I cannot have caused this post, instead this post must have caused me, when we only consider the two entities me and this post? You will understand if I do not find this logic convincing.

You might also consider how complex an omniscient God is. How complex is a complete knowledge of the universe?
Eternity isn’t dimensional at all.
God’s actions are “dimensional” in that the parting of the sea took place at a specific place and a specific time within the four dimensions of the material universe. By removing God outside those four dimensions you separate Him from His actions and you deny His omnipresence. If He is omnipresent, then He is present here and now within space-time as well as outside space-time.
Is it proper to say that the younger person who is linked to you by this chain of “cause and effect” was you? Certainly in some ways he was a different person, but is he absolutely and entirely and in all ways a different person?
Buddhism does not have a soul:
“All the elements of reality are soulless.”
When one realises this by wisdom,
then one does not heed ill.
This is the Path of Purity.

– Dhammapada 20:7
Given that, then “person” is treated differently. It is a convenient label for a bundle of parts, none of which is permanent.

The label “rossum” remains the same. The bundle of parts to which that label refers has changed.

rossum
 
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