Arguing Pro-life

[MIZER]

Swan further writes:

As for the argument that all life is holy, doesn’t that include those who have been born? And what about non-human life? Animals are sentient beings (I am a vegetarian), insects, reptiles. To take the life is holy ideal one step further, since death is a natural part of life, then isn’t all death holy? Life is only transitory after all.

Let’s be very clear. I don’t know anyone who is arguing that any life, other than human life, is holy. And again, where do you get the idea that sentience is the standard for determining who should be allowed to live? That death is a part of human life, doesn’t give you the power to decide who should die and when.

Bear in mind that I am bipolar with a tendency toward depression and have, for the past year and continuing who knows how long, going through a very dark and difficult time.

I am very sorry to learn this about you, Swan. This is no doubt a great cross you must bear and you have my prayers. You should know that your life is no less precious as a result of this affliction. You are greatly loved by your Creator and I hope you may find the value of your life as we (the pro-life community) value it. I can’t help but wonder if your position on abortion is related to your depression. It might be a great experiment if you started to accept the truth of the sanctity of human life, including your own, if you started to sincerely study the pro-life argument and see if that didn’t lift your spirit. May I ask, are you a Christian? Do you know Jesus?

I decided long ago that life was generally more trouble than its worth so my questions to its value are on a very personal nature. People tell me I have to go on but I can’t imagine why.

Now this comment scares me. Our suffering, your suffering, has merit if we bond it to the cross and offer it up (as we Catholic’s say) for God to make good come from it. That’s why your life is worth living. People spend (waste) a lot of time trying to figure out the meaning of life. It has always been obvious to me. The meaning is to glorify God through loving others. If you haven’t found value in your life try loving another as God loves you. You could even start by getting a dog. Dog is God spelled backward, did you ever notice that? And the uncanny thing about dogs is that they seem to have been created for the sole purpose of loving and being loved. Kind of like people. So start with a dog and see if you don’t think your life has value from the perspective of your pet, if not some special human in your life. I’m a total stranger, and I see value in your life. It is, even through suffering, most valuable. In fact, it is my belief that the more we suffer and offer that suffering to God as a sacrifice (We don’t complain which is a human release. That’s the sacrifice) the more value our life has. Do you see? When we accept our suffering, we are more Christ-like, more Christian, than ever.

I also, many years ago, had an abortion. I did not expereince any physical discomfort at the time and was happy to be able to keep food in my stomach (I was sick 24/7 and lost weight every day, nothing allieviated he nausea and I could keep down not a thing, even water- all I did was lay around and vomit). At times in the decades since that happened it has bothered me a bit, but I believed then and believe now it was the thing to do and I do not regret it.

Swan, you admit you have a tendency toward depression. I’m no phychologist but I’m going to ask you to please seek counseling specifically for the possible effects of your past abortion. Start by calling your local crisis pregnancy center or Catholic Church for a referal to someone who has experience counseling post abortive women. This is very important and you may find that you can be greatly helped by seeking assistance in healing even though you may not feel like you need to heal. More often than not, in our lives, our behavior drags the feeling. Sometimes we have to start doing the right thing and then the right feelings start to come. Please Swan, as a gift to yourself, talk to someone knowlegable about counseling post abortive women about your past abortion.

Consider yourself hugged, BIG HUG!!!

And may God Bless you, giving you the fortitude to take a leap, regardless of how uncomfortable that leap may be, and help yourself. Make a phone call today!

 

[Arrowood]

Regarding the OP, I am dealing with a similar issue with the case of emergency contraception. One post mentioned the theory that rape is an attack and that a victim has the right to self-protection. That self-protection does not extend to the right to kill an innocent human life (including RU-486, which is a chemical abortifacient). However, there is a legitimate debate about whether or not it would be morally acceptable to use non-abortifacient contraception in cases of rape since you would be defending against the attack. I am writing an article for a couple of websites exploring this issue, and I think my conclusion is that emergency contraception in cases of rape is still treating the conception of new life as an evil. The means by which that life was conceived was certainly evil, but contraception (and by extension abortion) does nothing the change the means. The end - a new human life - is good.

The discussion on this thread reminded me of an editorial by Ellen Goodman of the Boston Globe in which she proclaimed that the only solution pro-lifers can come up with to help scared, pregnant teenagers (easily extended to rape victims) is to make abortion illegal. That is a horrible misrepresentation (reflected in Swan’s recent post claiming that pro-lifers care nothing about life after it is born) of the pro-life movement, especially among Catholics and other Christians.

Pro-lifers have done a great job walking alongside pregnant women and supporting them through their pregnancy. This would be the appropriate charitable response to rape victims.

Why should any rape victim need to walk through a pregnancy alone? If we walk alongside her, the rape victim can come to see the new life as a good that came out of the horrible evil that was done to her. Giving the baby life and even giving the baby to an adopting family can be a step in healing if the woman has the love and support of the community.

Rape and incest exceptions to the immorality of rape are a cop out that keeps the community from doing what it should be doing anyway - loving and supporting the woman so she doesn’t have to walk alone.

 

[MIZER]

Flavious began this thread with this quandry:

I have not been doing this recently but I feel like it’d be good to have a feedback. Anyways before I would occasionally discuss the issue of pro-life/pro-choice with my left Grandmother who lives in the same house. Anyways I seem to do a good job with discussing the morals to killing a unborn baby however I become stumped at how to answer to this.

After about ten minutes into talking the issue of rape and raped minors in particular comes up. So I’m asked. “And what about rape victims who are only (insert minor age) old?” One thing I resent the most is that she places a senario of if my own little sister was in that position; which she knows will get me on a emotional level. (Just to note my sister is barely one!) so basically since I can not nitpick my beliefs saying “Well it’s different for rape victims”(which is not how I feel but saying the opposite will make me sound like I am willing for twelve year olds to go through pregnancy) in the end I’m defeated and resentful because of these cases which I’m sure is a small percentage of people who have abortions.

Another thing is the fact that it is pro-‘Choice’ in which case I lose my arguements because I’m cornered with the question. “So minors in rape cases have to goe through pregnancy with no other option?”

I’m sorry; I’m sure that their are many threads on this but this is just a personal issue that I need help responding too and would appriecate some feedback

Hi flavious,

Don’t be too hard on yourself. This is a difficult objection to the pro-life position to overcome. Overcome it, however, you must.

We are to be un-appologetically pro-life. There is never an instance which justifies the willful killing of an unborn child outside the one which truly involves the protection of the life of the mother as the primary life, as in the case of ectopic pregnancy.

To answer your grandmother when she throws out the rape of a minor, (your own baby sister no less, how dispicable) you need to drop your voice, getting very quiet and very serious with her and call her on this tactic for what it is. It is a way to rattle you and take you off the main issue which is the fact that abortion is an act of violence which kills a child. And say it to her just that way. You could say, “Grandma (or whatever you call her which shows her how dear she is to you), I love you with all my heart, but you and I both know, that rape is no defense for the violent killing of an innocent little baby.”

Then ask your grandmother how she can believe that one act of violence (rape) should beget another act of violence (murder). Ask her how that will help the rape victim? All it does in her mind, is equate herself to her rapist. Now she not only has to deal with the fact that she is a victim of rape, but someday she will have to deal with the fact that she became a perpetrator herself and killed her own child.

Also, many a rape victim who has undergone abortion will tell you that the procedure was the equivolent of being raped again. Here we have another man, invading her body, for the purpose of perpetrating violence which will result in the death of a human being, half of which is her own flesh and blood. The mental anguish this causes is far greater than the mental anguish caused by being raped. Physical wounds heal in time, mental wounds can last a lifetime. Ask your grandmother if that hasn’t been proven to be the case in her long experience with life.

Abortion is not a viable solution to the unwanted pregnancy that may result from a rape. Also, pregnancy resulting from rape is extremely rare. The woman’s body has a built in defense mechanism that more often than not, prevents a woman from concieving under those circumstances. To use rape as a defense of abortion is disgusting. It doesn’t change what abortion is. It doesn’t change what abortion does.

The overwhelming number of abortions performed in this country are performed for matters of expedience and convenience. Ask your grandmother if she can defend that fact of reality.

If you would like more infromation on becoming un-apologetically pro-life, visit www.abortionno.org. If she is willing, bring your grandmother along for the ride and you may see an instant conversion.

Good luck and may God Bless you for being a defender of innocent human life.

 

[Arrowood]

Regarding the argument posed by Abbaddon and Swan: when we abandon traditional philosophy that gives us the metaphysical framework to differentiate between like things, we fall into the errors that “everything is the same so nothing matters” or “everything is the same so it all matters incredibly.” To a modernist, there really is no difference between plant, animal and human life. In fact, to a truly consistent modernist there is no difference between “living” and “non-living” things. Modernists think that such differentiations are imposed on things by “those in power.” Consistent modernists are practically non-existent because modernism is not a livable philosophy. Unfortunately that does not keep people from applying it inconsistently to issues like abortion.

Swan - you are in my prayers as well.

 

[MIZER]

If we walk alongside her, the rape victim can come to see the new life as a good that came out of the horrible evil that was done to her. Giving the baby life and even giving the baby to an adopting family can be a step in healing if the woman has the love and support of the community.

Very good arrowood. This is right on. Abortions performed on rape victims only serve to victimize them again. It leaves a scare that may never heal.

In addition to the mental torture abortion often leaves in it’s wake, imagine risking a woman’s fertility in a misguided effort to eleviate her from the burden of going through a process her body was designed to go through. Unbelievable.

 

[MIZER]

Swan, this is for you,

“But those who suffer he delivers in their suffering; he speaks to them in their affliction.” (Job 36:15)

Make that phone call.

 

[Flavius_Aetius]

I’d like to thank everyone who is sharing their opinions on this thread. I’m glad that the Catholic Church remains completely unagreeing when it comes to abortion. I thank MIZER for the link to the webpage. It showed just how sick the process is; I believe that any stage of a Human should be respected. I really am surprised the doctors who do this can sleep at night…

 

[MIZER]

Flavious,

You’re welcome for the web site link. I know the truth can be shocking when you are first face to face with it, but until we see what abortion really is we can’t begin to try and stop it. As long as we tolerate people calling it “choice” we can’t begin to try and stop it. When I was first confronted with the hard truth of abortion I cried for three days. I couldn’t believe anyone could support such a heinous act. So I am as befuddled as you are in making this statement:

I really am surprised the doctors who do this can sleep at night…

There really are monsters in the world. When you meet someone who is pro-abort to their core (I doubt this is your grandmother, she’s probably just ignorant as most people who claim to be “pro-choice” are), if you ever have the opportunity to sit face to face with one of these people, I’m telling you the truth, the hair will stand up on the back of your neck and you will feel the actual presence of evil. Unadulterated evil does exist. I’ve met it face to face in my work with CBR (Center for Bio-ethical Reform) and it is scary.

God Bless you in your pro-life efforts. If your grandmother is willing to have the conversation then you are halfway there with her. I will be praying for her. Keep learning and keep defending those who cannot defend themselves. We are fighting genocide and we can never give up.

 

[MomblessedX3]

I just had this discussion with the LDS missionaries and my DH.

Jesus said “let the little children come to me” He didn’t say let only the little children that were conceived in love and are physically and mentally perfect come to me.

I cannot conceive of any situation where abortion is warranted. Rape…no… If the mother thinks she cannot love the baby give it a chance for life with another family.

Incest…while this has a greater ewww factor the chances are good that the baby will be born healthy, If it is not healthy often God takes care of it through miscarriage. Then the mother can give it up if that is her choice.

In the case of serious illness of the mother…possible death of the mother? Who decides which life is more important? And how can one be sure that both mother and baby won’t be just fine? I was told that I wouldn’t survive anymore pregnancies after my first. I went on to have 2 more children. While I did have complications it was worth it.

As a form of birth control…don’t even get me started.

If a woman has a baby and then decides that she can’t care for it or doesn’t want to care for it there are places that she can take it to legally abandon it. Any hospital would work. Better than a dumpster anyway.

There is NO situation where abortion is the best or only alternative.

 

[fellowChristian]

If you come across someone who says…

**
“Its my body I have a right to choose.”**

Ask them…

“What if you decided to cut off all your fingers do you think that the “Law” would let you?”
No you’d be arrested and sent for a mental evaluation.

“What if you wanted to cut off your arm? Would the “Law” let you?”
Nope again arrested and sent to the mental ward.

"How about if you decide to kill yourself? Would the “Law” let you?
A third time no.
Enjoy the body restraints and the Mr. Feel Good doctor who shoots you up with different anti-depressant drugs.

“Why not? Its your body.”
Yes, but it’s insane to cut off or kill any part of a body that is healthy.

“What is the difference between killing a healthy limb or a baby?”
Alot but the “Law” only allows you to kill one.
The one that will only be apart of your body for nine months.

So if someone says…

"Its my body I have the right to choose."

Ask them to finish the sentence.

Choose what?

 

[royal_archer]

If you come across someone who says…

**
“Its my body I have a right to choose.”**

Ask them…

“What if you decided to cut off all your fingers do you think that the “Law” would let you?”
No you’d be arrested and sent for a mental evaluation.

“What if you wanted to cut off your arm? Would the “Law” let you?”
Nope again arrested and sent to the mental ward.

"How about if you decide to kill yourself? Would the “Law” let you?
A third time no.
Enjoy the body restraints and the Mr. Feel Good doctor who shoots you up with different anti-depressant drugs.

“Why not? Its your body.”
Yes, but it’s insane to cut off or kill any part of a body that is healthy.

“What is the difference between killing a healthy limb or a baby?”
Alot but the “Law” only allows you to kill one.
The one that will only be apart of your body for nine months.

So if someone says…

"Its my body I have the right to choose."

Ask them to finish the sentence.

Choose what?

And do people have the right to choose to use dope?
Do kids have the right to drink or smoke?

no and no.

From a secular point of view. If you come up on the scene of a crash and see and injured person and start doing CPR you are obligated to continue to do so as long as it is safe to do so. If you are applying direct preasure to a wound you are obligated to do so until releieved by someone with equivalent or higher medical training. In both of these cases you are obligated to continue to treat until the treatment is no longer necesary or until you have passed the victim on to someone who can provide better care. one of the underlying theories is that by offering care other bystanders who would have helped may have thought the condition was being taken care of and left the scene. had the first care giver not been there, the other bystanders would have stayed and helped. but the first caregiver presence denied the victim assistance from the second caregiver. I am sure there are other reasons. But this applies to a mother in that she is the child’s first care giver and has an obligation to care for that child until she can pass the child on to another person.

 

[GraceDK]

I
After about ten minutes into talking the issue of rape and raped minors in particular comes up. So I’m asked. “And what about rape victims who are only (insert minor age) old?” One thing I resent the most is that she places a senario of if my own little sister was in that position; which she knows will get me on a emotional level. (Just to note my sister is barely one!) so basically since I can not nitpick my beliefs saying “Well it’s different for rape victims”(which is not how I feel but saying the opposite will make me sound like I am willing for twelve year olds to go through pregnancy) in the end I’m defeated and resentful because of these cases which I’m sure is a small percentage of people who have abortions…

Dear friend.
I understand,. its madness trying to convince people who thinks the preborn baby is not a human individual about the absolute right to life. However, thats what we have to do: IT IS absolute human life… no degrees, and it has absolute rights for existence and care.
Now … the rape card. I know the way people can make you feel like a scum bag by saying “what if a 12 year old is raped?!”.
I talked to an extremely knowlegable psychologist who made huge research in the field about post-abortion syndrom. What he said when posed with this question is that you have got to demand that the two problematics be seperated. A woman was raped. And the woman is pregnant. Then you deal with each problem …
and as someone said: abortion does not take care of a problem … it only creates another one by making the victim quilty. And the victim needs to see her pregnancy as a seperated issue from her having been raped. Cousellors and society must help with this as well as helping her give the child up for adoption. This mother needs HUGE care.

When you argue about these things its also always vital to not let someone take you around by the nose by bringing the third world countries into the debate… You have to take the control of the debate… and most importantly… try to keep a professional calm…

God bless you