Arguing Wine or grape juice

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DENNYINMI

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I am putting this question in the section of "sacraments’ as Catholics’ we have never questioned the cup consecrated at the time of Holy Mass…is indeed wine…transubstantiated…the Blood of Christ.

I have been having a conversation with a fundamentalist who insists it was grape juice, citing the words “fruit of the vine”…and the idea of fermentation representing old wine…symbolic of sin.

Has any one addressed this before?

This may seem a silly question for some…but quite frankly, I googled this idea…and it appears to be thought by many…it was grape juice…

What would you say to someone who believed this?
Thanx
 
Hi,

I probably would not address this topic with him as most of them are not open to the Tradition of the Church as well as the Magesterium of the Church.

If I was to address him, I would ask him by what authority does he claim for his interpretation of the bible?

I would bring up one chapter. Address John 6 especially where Jesus says about eating his flesh and drinking his blood. Refer to the Last supper accounts. Jesus is being literal. If it had been grape juice would not our Lord have said something to that effect? [pardon me if I sound really sacriligious I am trying to make a point]

I would also tell him the Church’s doctrine on the topic.

Little One0307
 
Yes, Christian temperance absolutists have always found it very hard to deal with the fact that Christ went around drinking wine. We know it was not grape juice, of course, from passages like these (I’ll give you the KJV), which would make no sense if grape juice were intended:
When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew; ) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now. (Jn 2:8-10)
The point, of course, is that the guests would be so tipsy from the good wine that they would not realize the stuff brought out later is cheap swill. Makes no sense with non-alcoholic juice.
For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! (Lk 7:33-34)
Yeah, I’m sure people were complaining that Jesus was a glutton and a fruit-juice drinker.
 
There isn’t even any doubt, as some try to claim, that the word wine is really referring to wine. There was a Greek word for grape-juice, and it was not used. Wine without question appears and is handled by Christ in the gospels.

On top of that some try to claim that it was acceptable then because things like clear water weren’t easily available and wine was easier to access and store. This isn’t even close to a good argument because alcohol dehydrates you, and would never be a good source of hydration in that climate, in fact substituting it for water/juice could have easy killed a man.

Finally some like to mention that the alcohol content was much weaker back then since they used a natural process, but we are talking about the difference of modern wines being 12-15% alcohol while natural fermentation usually is around 10%. So yes, it is weaker, but it is still stronger than beer (which also existed in great quantities at that time).

Further more we know with certainty that the early church considered it a primary part of the Eucharist. The idea that Jesus didn’t drink wine really doesn’t have any academic legs to stand on.
 
PatrickSebast said:
things like clear water weren’t easily available and wine was easier to access and store. This isn’t even close to a good argument because alcohol dehydrates you, and would never be a good source of hydration in that climate, in fact substituting it for water/juice could have easy killed a man.
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I’m no expert on historic wine-drinking in the Mediterranean region, but I have two points that would seem to undermine your claim. First, it’s well-known that the Founding Fathers in the US were heavy drinkers, at least in part because of the lack of reliably potable water. I think the alcohol of whatever sort was frequently watered down to make it less potent and/or to mask the unpleasant taste of the water. Second, from firsthand experience I can tell you that dehydration only occurs after one stops drinking. Keep the wine flowing, and you’ll have more than enough fluid.

Standards back then not being what they are today, there was probably a wide variety of alcohol concentrations from barely fermented to fairly potent; the former was probably used much of the time for routine table wine. In other words, I suspect that the most widely-used wine (which would also have been the cheapest) was a good bit under your 10% estimate. That would also make it much easier to keep imbibing without suffering dehydration.
 
Before Mr Welsh discovered how to pasteurize grape juice, the “fruit of the vine” fermented into wine in about 24 hours (unless it just spoiled). Probably rather nasty stuff too in many cases.

But unless it had been pressed within a few hours, it wouldn’t be grape juice. If I recall correctly, Passover is not the correct time of year in Israel for grape harvesting.
 
DENNYINMI said:
I
I have been having a conversation with a fundamentalist who insists it was grape juice, citing the words “fruit of the vine”…and the idea of fermentation representing old wine…symbolic of sin.

Has any one addressed this before?

Thanx
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yes it has been addressed here and on the apologetics forum numerous times

there is no mention of grape juice used anywhere in the NT but plenty of times Jesus uses wine, including the last supper. Ask an observant Jew what the reaction would be if someone tried to introduce grape juice rather than wine at the Passover meal.
 
I have also had Pentacostal try to tell me that it was “New Wine” which means just grape jucie it had not firmented yet. I would then ask them to read
The Acts Of The Apostles ch 2 vs 13
" [13] But others mocking, said: These men are full of new wine"

that even “new wine” had alchohal. they kinda became quite.
 
I would like to thank each and every one of you for such truth, and wisdom.

I would like to share something with you I found out today. Maybe, if any of you become confronted with this like I did…here is another fun fact that could be brought up, and no one can claim, its “Magesterial”…and close their ears…this is actually kind of funny:

The method of pasteurizing grape juice to halt the fermentation has been attributed to an American physician and dentist, Thomas Bramwell Welch in 1869. A strong supporter of the temperance movement, he produced a non-alcoholic wine to be used for church services in his hometown of Vineland, New Jersey. His fellow parishioners continued to prefer and use regular wine. His son, Charles E. Welch, who was also a dentist, eventually gave up his practice to promote grape juice. In 1893 he founded Welch’s Grape Juice Company at Westfield, New York. The product was given to visitors at international exhibitions. The oldest extant structure associated with the company is Welch Factory Building No. 1, located at Westfield, and listed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1983.[1]

SO, it appears a century worth of proper Eucharistic elements of bread and wine…down the drain for profiteering…unbelievable…Thank you all!!!👍
 
DENNYINMI said:
I would like to thank each and every one of you for such truth, and wisdom.

I would like to share something with you I found out today. Maybe, if any of you become confronted with this like I did…here is another fun fact that could be brought up, and no one can claim, its “Magesterial”…and close their ears…this is actually kind of funny:

The method of pasteurizing grape juice to halt the fermentation has been attributed to an American physician and dentist, Thomas Bramwell Welch in 1869. A strong supporter of the temperance movement, he produced a non-alcoholic wine to be used for church services in his hometown of Vineland, New Jersey. His fellow parishioners continued to prefer and use regular wine. His son, Charles E. Welch, who was also a dentist, eventually gave up his practice to promote grape juice. In 1893 he founded Welch’s Grape Juice Company at Westfield, New York. The product was given to visitors at international exhibitions. The oldest extant structure associated with the company is Welch Factory Building No. 1, located at Westfield, and listed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1983.[1]

SO, it appears a century worth of proper Eucharistic elements of bread and wine…down the drain for profiteering…unbelievable…Thank you all!!!👍
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LOL. That is great. Thanks for sharing, I learned quite a bit. I grew up Church of Christ and all the churches that I attended supported Mr. Welch quite a bit and bought no other grape juice but his own. I always thought that only Church of Christ used it. Any Baptists know what grape juice they use?

Little One0307
 
Little_One0307 said:
LOL. That is great. Thanks for sharing, I learned quite a bit. I grew up Church of Christ and all the churches that I attended supported Mr. Welch quite a bit and bought no other grape juice but his own. I always thought that only Church of Christ used it. Any Baptists know what grape juice they use?

Little One0307
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The Baptists are also big on Welsh’s. I love grape juice really, but I don’t see why one would choose to use it for communion. (I mean, I know the arguments, but do not seem compelling.)
 
It has to do with the mingling of the water and the wine. Not just water and grape juice.

One represents our humanity which is why so little water is used. And the other representing the divinity or the fermentation of the grape to become wine and not just juice.

The wine at the wedding at Cana is both the good wine and the better wine, not juice.

You have to be in touch with the Mystery of the Eucharist in order to understand that its not just juice…it is wine which becomes the blood of Christ at the words of consecration from the priest.
 
Bluegoat said:
The Baptists are also big on Welsh’s. I love grape juice really, but I don’t see why one would choose to use it for communion. (I mean, I know the arguments, but do not seem compelling.)
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They could at least use that sparkling stuff for the real, fake wine feel 😃
 
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