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CatholicSoxFan
Guest
I still have a kind of “shock factor” whenever I encounter a nihilist (like, there are people actually defend it???) How do you argue with a nihilist to try to establish moral values?
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
Since nihilism is essentially atheistic and defiant of the existing order of things, it’s probably better to save your breath, kick the dust from your shoes, and move on. 
Nihilist generally wear themselves out sooner or later … or die from high blood pressure if they are so nihilistic they won’t even see a doctor.
Nihilist generally wear themselves out sooner or later … or die from high blood pressure if they are so nihilistic they won’t even see a doctor.
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CatholicSoxFan
Guest
Well I’m talking about nihilism in regards to morals.Since nihilism is essentially atheistic and defiant of the existing order of things, it’s probably better to save your breath, kick the dust from your shoes, and move on.
Nihilist generally wear themselves out sooner or later … or die from high blood pressure if they are so nihilistic they won’t even see a doctor.
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Jim_Baur
Guest
Science makes good use of logic.
The early Greeks scientist (philosophers) could see the Logos.
We continue that in science. We look for the reasoning in science.
One can do something analogously in ethics.
Is it more logical to have sex the way (moral) many Americans do?
Or could one ethically see (understand) that 19,000,000 new sexually transmitted diseases a year are illogical.
In the entire world there are 41,000,000 surgical abortions (not counting drug caused abortions from the pill). Is that ethically illogical?
Is single parenthood less logical than two parent houses? They don’t to be married in a religious house.
Is it more logical financially to be married by the state than to accumulate wealth without a license and then “divorce”?
Is habitual drunkenness more logical than sobriety?
Oh, heck, you do not need my help.
You can do much better than that, sorry!
Oh their silly little argument, well, “I would no do that,” your point.
They would not habitually get drunk. They have their own ethics! That is ethics.
The early Greeks scientist (philosophers) could see the Logos.
We continue that in science. We look for the reasoning in science.
One can do something analogously in ethics.
Is it more logical to have sex the way (moral) many Americans do?
Or could one ethically see (understand) that 19,000,000 new sexually transmitted diseases a year are illogical.
In the entire world there are 41,000,000 surgical abortions (not counting drug caused abortions from the pill). Is that ethically illogical?
Is single parenthood less logical than two parent houses? They don’t to be married in a religious house.
Is it more logical financially to be married by the state than to accumulate wealth without a license and then “divorce”?
Is habitual drunkenness more logical than sobriety?
Oh, heck, you do not need my help.
You can do much better than that, sorry!
Oh their silly little argument, well, “I would no do that,” your point.
They would not habitually get drunk. They have their own ethics! That is ethics.
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PietroPaolo
Guest
Nihilists don’t believe anything matters. I usually point out that whoever is arguing with me must think something matters because they are spending their time arguing with me about it. People can say they are nihilists, but they cannot live it.
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tonyrey
Guest
A consistent moral nihilist attaches no value to reason and believes there is no need to be reasonable, a view which is obviously self-destructive and not worth considering. It is an utter waste of time and energy attempting to reason with such a person…
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Linusthe2nd
Guest
No, a nihilist cannot logically claim any moral standard to which men must logically be obedient. The reason is there is no ultimate lawgiver for them.
Linus2nd
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TarkanAttila
Guest
Why is he a nihilist? Is it because of death?
Because if it is, the Gospel is the perfect remedy to that. And you might go about showing God to this sad fellow, and the Resurrection. And giving the man some hope.
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CatholicSoxFan
Guest
I just want general advice in arguing with nihilists, not any particular one.
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TarkanAttila
Guest
That is general advice. I’d be willing to bet death, and the universality of it is what makes anyone become a nihilist, because without a choice of a final fate, it does not matter what one does.
Heaven and Hell are the solution to nihilism - if they can be proved.
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Iron_Donkey
Guest
Why doesn’t the “there is no meaning because there is no source for meaning (or morals or whatever)” not also apply to physical objects?
I mean, clearly it doesn’t, since there are physical objects. But why is that? What is special about physical stuff that it doesn’t need the same sort of source or whatever that moral stuff does?
That is, why is there something rather than nothing? Clearly, there is an answer. And there is no reason to suppose that that ultimate source could not also be a source of moral reality. (Then recommend St. Thomas Aquinas, etc.)
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jimmy
Guest
It is pointless to argue with a nihilist. If you can’t agree that anything has inherent value, you don’t have any ground upon which to argue. The idea of morality comes down to the fact that some things are better than others; some things are good to do, and some things are bad. It is better to live than not. Life is good. Suicide is not good. If you can’t establish basic agreement then there is nothing to argue upon.
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GEddie
Guest
Physical objects don’t need to have a meaning; they mean themselves.
But moral strictures need a meaning beyond “Because I say so”.
ICXC NIKA
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GEddie
Guest
Nihilism doesn’t help with death, if anything, it makes matters worse!
ICXC NIKA.
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Iron_Donkey
Guest
I’m not asking for their meaning. I’m asking why they are there. Whether they mean something or not, they are there, and there is a reason why.
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StrawberryJam
Guest
I have no idea how you can discuss moral values with anyone without first letting them know what your basis for moral values originates from.
I assume you are asking us to help you prepare to argue your moral values are superior and why. The problem is, you need to tell me how you have determined that your opponent is a nihilist for me to help you.
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Michael19682
Guest
I also think that “help” for nihilism comes with approaching their position from a stronger, more
embracing view (which you have suggested). Nihilism for me can arise from taking the crucifixion of the Lord out of context. On the surface, without knowing what it meant in the context of the prophesies, and
his own way, it looks like saying … you have to die at some time, so why not not bother with defending yourself and why not just say anything and everything is meaningless. I think the difficulty it poses as a philosophy or as a counterargument to faith is that it potentially “springboards” from the most powerful symbolic icon our faith has to offer.
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TarkanAttila
Guest
True. It is a response to death - a response of despair. And that’s a reasonable response.
If there is no choice of consequence for our actions. You can have God, Jesus, the Cross, Resurrection. But if there were only Heaven, or only Hell, it would not matter. God made Hell, partially, so our lives have meaning. (Although, He did not make Heaven. He isHeaven.
)So, demonstrate the God-man on the Cross died and rose again, show the nihilist the passages about Hell, and you’re good to go.
(Well, it’s not that simple, but that would be the basic outline.)
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StrawberryJam
Guest
Good to go? No, I would agree it is not that simple.You have not presented much of anything in the way of argument. Simply because you have not identifyed your opponet, or their specific claims. Broad brushing and hand waving is not an argument.True. It is a response to death - a response of despair. And that’s a reasonable response.
If there is no choice of consequence for our actions. You can have God, Jesus, the Cross, Resurrection. But if there were only Heaven, or only Hell, it would not matter. God made Hell, partially, so our lives have meaning. (Although, He did not make Heaven. He isHeaven.
So, demonstrate the God-man on the Cross died and rose again, show the nihilist the passages about Hell, and you’re good to go.
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Patty23
Guest
Take time to read Existentialism is a Humanism by Jean-Paul Sartre. He’s a well known atheist and for me the absolute Nihilist. Morality and suicide to him don’t make sense… Peter Kreeft once said or something to the same effect that he drove more fence-sitting atheists to theism than most apoligists. Sartre trashes secular humanism, which still holds a degree of morality even without the belief.
Here’s an excerpt.
“…nothing will be changed if God does not exist; we shall rediscover the same norms of honesty, progress and humanity, and we shall have disposed of God as an out-of-date hypothesis which will die away quietly of itself. The existentialist, on the contrary, finds it extremely embarrassing that God does not exist, for there disappears with Him all possibility of finding values in an intelligible heaven.”
You can find the whole article here: marxists.org/reference/archive/sartre/works/exist/sartre.htm
It’s a quite long read but it’s worth it. It’s easier to preach God nowadays by preaching about the meaninglessness of atheism through a well-known atheist’s perspective.
Here’s an excerpt.
“…nothing will be changed if God does not exist; we shall rediscover the same norms of honesty, progress and humanity, and we shall have disposed of God as an out-of-date hypothesis which will die away quietly of itself. The existentialist, on the contrary, finds it extremely embarrassing that God does not exist, for there disappears with Him all possibility of finding values in an intelligible heaven.”
You can find the whole article here: marxists.org/reference/archive/sartre/works/exist/sartre.htm
It’s a quite long read but it’s worth it. It’s easier to preach God nowadays by preaching about the meaninglessness of atheism through a well-known atheist’s perspective.
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