Arguing with a Protestant?

[fbl9]

Thanks for your response. I’m guessing only Roman Catholics can have idols all over their churches, bow down to them, and watch their bishops and cardinals lie down on the ground in front of Peter’s tomb, and still claim not to worship idols. In Acts 10:25-26, Cornelius fell down in front of Peter, and Peter stopped him from doing so. What justification would you like to provide for having statues in your churches? The brazen serpent argument was put forward by none other than a Roman Catholic, and that same person extended the idea to provide evidence of a so-called “new economy of images,” which is contained in the Catechism (#2131).

yes because the peopel whorshipped it and named it, thus having another god. the statues in the Church are not another god. no catholic treats the statues as another god so they are not idols get it yet.

 

[m3rc3d3s190]

might had something there if the Church taught that we whorship these “idols”

2Kings18:4 has no relation to what you are saying.perhaps you can give me the correct verses.

The gospel according to St.John 20;23, Christ gave authority to the apostles to forgive sin, Christ disobeyed Himself???

You misunderstand the verse in John 20:23. Jesus told His disciples to spread the Good News, and they did this. They explained to people the doctrine of reconciliation and of condemnation, based on what Jesus taught them. Christ did not “disobey Himself,” as you sarcastically state. The Roman Catholic priests disobeyed Christ, simple as that. Here’s how: If Jesus gave His disciples authority to forgive sin, as you erroneously believe, then how would you explain the account of Ananias and Sapphira? They were not transparent in a simple financial matter, and you doubtless know what became of them. How is it that today’s Roman Catholic priests/bishops/cardinals did not know that there is/was wrongdoing going on in the church that Jesus allegedly founded? Should they not have known? If Ananias and Sapphira were called out, how hard would it have been for priests who had Jesus’ own authority to do what His own disciples did, since the Roman priests are in fact their successors? Could it be that they are not the successors of Jesus’ disciples? How else would you explain the fact that they cannot heal the sick, give sight to the blind, make the lame walk, and raise the dead?

 

[m3rc3d3s190]

yes because the peopel whorshipped it and named it, thus having another god. the statues in the Church are not another god. no catholic treats the statues as another god so they are not idols get it yet.

Read Exodus 20:4. Also read 1 John 5:21, and various other places in the New Testament. And then read John 4:24, which says “God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.” Idol worship is always what other people are doing, right?

 

[fbl9]

You misunderstand the verse in John 20:23. Jesus told His disciples to spread the Good News, and they did this. They explained to people the doctrine of reconciliation and of condemnation, based on what Jesus taught them. Christ did not “disobey Himself,” as you sarcastically state. The Roman Catholic priests disobeyed Christ, simple as that. Here’s how: If Jesus gave His disciples authority to forgive sin, as you erroneously believe, then how would you explain the account of Ananias and Sapphira? They were not transparent in a simple financial matter, and you doubtless know what became of them. How is it that today’s Roman Catholic priests/bishops/cardinals did not know that there is/was wrongdoing going on in the church that Jesus allegedly founded? Should they not have known? If Ananias and Sapphira were called out, how hard would it have been for priests who had Jesus’ own authority to do what His own disciples did, since the Roman priests are in fact their successors? Could it be that they are not the successors of Jesus’ disciples? How else would you explain the fact that they cannot heal the sick, give sight to the blind, make the lame walk, and raise the dead?

i don’tknow i guess i am stupid when Christ said “whose sin you forgive,they are forgiven them, whose ever sins you retain they are retained”. doesn’t mean what is wrote.
Did they ask for forgiveness?. no they did not, they denied wrong doing. you have no point yet again.

more pointless tacts, how else would you explain the lack of real miricles in your group?

 

[gus]

But you know what I mean, they like to say that we have man made traditions (almost like pagan like tradition)

We have man made traditions like the canon of scripture.

 

[Aschecte]

Read Exodus 20:4. Also read 1 John 5:21, and various other places in the New Testament. And then read John 4:24, which says “God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.” Idol worship is always what other people are doing, right?

You are correct WORSHIP in spirit and in truth = spititu et Veritas and this is true but where you are twisting worship is to say Catholics worship idols wether in Statues or in idols in the eastern churches. We don’t worship statues anymore than a kid worships a baseball card. It’s pretty insulting actually to make that insinuation that we worship idols and that our church teaches us to do so… I strongly believe all worship is rightfully due to God alone… as to statues and idols which I have many in my house as my wifes family is Orthodox are a constant reminder of holliness, many times more than the aforementioned baseball card is who I want to emulate and my kids to look up to… but I am very clear about who we worship and what the difference between veneration and worship is. PLEASE do your research before making these comments they are hurtful also PLEASE also remember we are all brothers and sisters in Christ the bible teaches us not to judge as that is for God alone we are pleaseing to God to return injury with Love.

 

[irisfromohio]

Thanks for your response. I’m guessing only Roman Catholics can have idols all over their churches, bow down to them, and watch their bishops and cardinals lie down on the ground in front of Peter’s tomb, and still claim not to worship idols. In Acts 10:25-26, Cornelius fell down in front of Peter, and Peter stopped him from doing so. What justification would you like to provide for having statues in your churches? The brazen serpent argument was put forward by none other than a Roman Catholic, and that same person extended the idea to provide evidence of a so-called “new economy of images,” which is contained in the Catechism (#2131).

You guess wrong, my friend. We do not worship idols. We may bow to show respect for their memory, but that’s it. Venerating those who suffered for the love of Christ before us is no crime. I guess only Protestants can have a plain place of worship and accept that when you are dead, you are dead, so there is no need to show respect for those before you. The next time you look at a picture of a deceased loved one, or go to the cemetery to mourn a loved one, if you see someone prostrate crying in grief and appealing to that loved one for strength, snap back into reality and remember that isn’t a Christian thing to do.

 

[Aschecte]

Read Exodus 20:4. Also read 1 John 5:21, and various other places in the New Testament. And then read John 4:24, which says “God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.” Idol worship is always what other people are doing, right?

Ok then read exodus 20:5 you shall not bow down before them or serve them. We do not serve idols. 1 John 5:21 "
1 Jn 5:21) voices a perennial warning about idols, any type of rival to God." The statues and icons in the church or someone’s home are not rivals to God at all we do not worship them so there is no rival all worship is to God alone.

 

[Cranch]

I’m guessing only Roman Catholics can have idols all over their churches, bow down to them, and watch their bishops and cardinals lie down on the ground in front of Peter’s tomb, and still claim not to worship idols. In Acts 10:25-26, Cornelius fell down in front of Peter, and Peter stopped him from doing so.

Some research on your part would keep you from exhibiting so little understanding of Catholicism. Every priest (not just Bishops and Cardinals) prostrates himself before God at his ordination to the priesthood. The candidate for ordination lies prostrate as a sign of humility and of total self-donation to God. This occurs in cathedrals the world over. He is not worshiping an idol or a man. Cardinals are created in Rome and when the bishops prostrate themselves in a replication of the dedication to God shown at their priestly ordination, it occurs in front of the altar, not in front of St. Peter’s tomb. What justification would you like to provide for having statues in your churches? The brazen serpent argument was put forward by none other than a Roman Catholic, and that same person extended the idea to provide evidence of a so-called “new economy of images,” which is contained in the Catechism (#2131).

 

[Hat4]

Amazing! There are still people out there who think Catholics worship statues?

 

[Aschecte]

Amazing! There are still people out there who think Catholics worship statues?

I know I’m blown away too !! Of all arguments this one took me by surprise.

 

[Cranch]

Thanks for your response. I’m guessing only Roman Catholics can have idols all over their churches, bow down to them, and watch their bishops and cardinals lie down on the ground in front of Peter’s tomb, and still claim not to worship idols. In Acts 10:25-26, Cornelius fell down in front of Peter, and Peter stopped him from doing so.

Some research would keep you from exhibiting so little understanding of Catholicism. Every priest (not just Bishops and Cardinals) prostrates himself before God at his ordination to the priesthood. The candidate for ordination lies prostrate as a sign of humility and of total self-donation to God. This occurs in cathedrals the world over. He is not worshiping an idol or his bishop or St. Peter. Cardinals are created in Rome, where, when the bishops prostrate themselves in replication of this sign of dedication to God, it occurs in front of the altar, not in front of St. Peter’s tomb. It’s also quite biblical:

Throughout Scripture, lay people, prophets, and saints have prostrated themselves or bowed down before God. Moses, Aaron, Abraham, and Joshua are but a few of those who are shown to prostrate themselves in the Bible. In the New Testament, the magi prostrate in front of the infant Jesus, as does the man tormented by unclean spirits, and as do the apostles at the Transfiguration of Jesus. In Revelation, the heavenly beings also prostrate… Jesus himself prostrates in prayer before his Father.—*Our Responsibilities In God’s House*Peter rightly corrected Cornelius: “Arise, I myself also am a man.” As any Catholic would correct someone who prostrated themselves before a man.

What justification would you like to provide for having statues in your churches? The brazen serpent argument was put forward by none other than a Roman Catholic, and that same person extended the idea to provide evidence of a so-called “new economy of images,” which is contained in the Catechism (#2131).

My bad. That Catholic was absolutely correct to cite the brazen serpent as pertaining here. But you have not told the whole story. The serpent was destroyed because the people had turned it into an idol. Why did Moses make it in the first place?
Upon which they came to Moses, and said: We have sinned, because we have spoken against the Lord and thee: pray that he may take away these serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed.—Numbers 21:7–9So the creation of this serpent was actually ordained by God. But does God contradict Himself?
Because you saw no form at all on the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire, be strictly on your guard not to act corruptly by fashioning an idol for yourselves to represent any figure, whether it be the form of a man or of a woman, the form of any animal on the earth, the form of any bird that flies in the sky, the form of anything that crawls on the ground, or the form of any fish in the waters under the earth.—Deuteronomy 4:15–18 No, because He speaks here of creating idols. When he instructed Moses to create the brazen serpent, it was to prefigure salvation through Christ.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him, may not perish; but may have life everlasting.—John 3:14–15

 

[irisfromohio]

Amazing! There are still people out there who think Catholics worship statues?

If you think that is amazing, I can take you up one more level into the Twilight Zone: My daughter has a friend who has fallen away from the Catholic faith and one of the little “nuggets of knowledge” she was fed at her new “Christian” church was that Catholics worship idols. That venomous myth is not just still out there, it is being circulated in the most malevolent fashion by many non Catholics. Not only nondenominational churches spew that poison, but I have heard it from some main stream Protestants as well. Sad. We must continue to pray. I always tell anyone who tries to engage me in this kind of divisive argument with such ludicrous rhetoric that they are making Satan very happy. There is nothing he likes more than to see Christians in disagreement and discord.

 

[Used2beSherryG]

Mp3rc3etc. is giving a perfect example of the convoluted thinking of a protestant so entrenched in talking points it is useless to offer any answers. The mind is closed and set on the somewhat combative retort rather than a real dialog and obtaining any useful information that would lead to study of the truth and beauty of the 2000 year old Church instituted by Christ himself. Rather, ask the non catholic to study his own faith and reflect on why he holds beleif systems that were not even developed until at least 1,500 years after Christ instituted His church, the sacraments, and the holy bible was not compiled by any other than the Catholic Church. bible alone appears nowhere in the bible, and Peter, Paul, and all the other apostles and disciples of Christ spread christianity by word of their mouths, handing on the traditions of Christ’s own body on earth.

 

[hope_7]

It is strange how you say that the mind of protestants are closed and that it is imposible for them to come to know the truth abput the catholic church.

Earlier I madre a post in this thread talking about being born again but no one wants to address this or talk about this. They do not want to even know what it is or is it for them. but when it comes to argueing about statues the pope infant baptism and so on this is all that I have found that the catholics on this forum want to do . Its like they need to prove themselves right and not hear anything that I am trying to say.I have found it extremely hard and all but impossible to really have any kind of a positive discussion about being born again which is really the key issue for protestants.

 

[fbl9]

It is strange how you say that the mind of protestants are closed and that it is imposible for them to come to know the truth abput the catholic church.

Earlier I madre a post in this thread talking about being born again but no one wants to address this or talk about this. They do not want to even know what it is or is it for them. but when it comes to argueing about statues the pope infant baptism and so on this is all that I have found that the catholics on this forum want to do . Its like they need to prove themselves right and not hear anything that I am trying to say.I have found it extremely hard and all but impossible to really have any kind of a positive discussion about being born again which is really the key issue for protestants.

When are you born again?
Catholics beleive it happens at baptism.Whether it be when one is an infant or adult.
Why does one need to be born again?
Catholics believe one needs to be born again cause they are dead due to orginal sin.
How do you repent of original sin?

 

[hope_7]

When are you born again?
Catholics beleive it happens at baptism.Whether it be when one is an infant or adult.
Why does one need to be born again?
Catholics believe one needs to be born again cause they are dead due to orginal sin.
How do you repent of original sin

I was born again august 19 1974 at 3 am in the morning.

In John chapter 3 Jesus said to Nicodemus that unless you are born again you cannot see the kingdom of God. Ephesions 1 :1-5 shows us that we are considered by God to be dead in trespasses and in sins. When a person is born again they are made alive unto God.

Before I recieved Christ as my saviour I came to the place in my life that I knew that I was a sinner and that I was going to hell. I also knew that there was nothing that I could do to save myself, even if I lived a good life and went to church. I knew that it wouldnt help. I was under such conviction. I knew I was going to hell if I died. I remembered a preacher saying if you wanted to be saved read the book of John and it would tell you how. I also remembered a scripture that said seek and ye shall find . This is how I found salvation. Or better said it is how the Lord saved me.

Before one is born again there is a time that they realise that they are not saved. Unless they can come to the place that they are lost and a sinner in need of God’s saveing grace they will never be born again. Next they go through a process of repentance where they turn from their sins and cry out to God for Him to save them from their sins. God hears their prayer in His time. I will add this here that they even though they are turning away from there sins they do not escape them, only God can set them free from them. This prosess has no set length of time That is up to God as to how long it takes.

After I was born again my whole life changed I knew that God had forgiven me of my sins For the first time in my life I had peace. I knew that I was saved and going to heaven. I was brought into a relationship with God through Jesus His son where when I called Him Father it was real. My whole life changed after that point. I was different from the inside I was a new person. I no longer wanted to live in sin. I actually despised them and I found myself free of them. I also had such a hunger for God’s word and prayer. I even loved going to church services something that I used to not like. I couldnt get enough of God I fell in love with Him over and over again and I have never been the same since.

I hope this give an answer to your questions.

Is there anything like this in the Catholic church ? Have any of you ever had something like that happen in your life. ?

 

[michaelhager]

An interesting thought on the idea of God’s prohibition of idols, even aside from all of the scriptural arguments:

God specifically stated all of the things that should NOT be fashioned by man and listed them. All in that list where of earthly things, to paraphrase… “the birds in the sky, the animals upon the earth the fish under the sea…”

Now, given that Catholics have statues, windows, paintings and other forms of icons of Jesus, Mary and the saints, and Jesus, the Blessed Mother and all the angels and saints are by definition in Heaven, then all of the those images are of heavenly creatures, not earthly creatures, and therefore would be exempt under Gods instructions.

I am not a theologian, and I haven’t studied the ancient languages and interpretations, but I thought this might be an interesting take on the subject.

Even so, when we talk to Mary, we ask her to pray for us or others. In the Hail Mary prayer we ask; “Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of death.” In the mass we pray “…and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord, our God.” In no way can this be construed as praying to or worshiping Mary or the Angels, or the saints, but simply asking those souls currently in heaven, closest to God to put in a good word for us.

Personally, I need all the help I can get. Why wouldn’t I ask influential souls to help me out?

 

[Rosinante]

But you know what I mean, they like to say that we have man made traditions (almost like pagan like tradition)

Yes, they do like to say that.

…and I like to turn it right back on them. Ticks 'em off something fierce, because they know I’m right–after I spell it out for them.

E.g.–Sola Scriptura itself–man made ‘turdition’. Same with Sola Fide.

Neither are in the Bible, or otherwise biblical concepts. They are fabrications/contortions manufactued by ‘St. Marty’ (Luther), et. al. IOW: Men. These are their ‘turditions’ of men.

My wife is protestant. I enjoy ‘arguing’–or, as I prefer to think of it–“comparing and contrasting differences in our respective perspectives and bases of the Faith”.

FWIW: My wife doesn’t enjoy these exchanges anymore; nor do any members of her family–many of whom are ‘pastors’.

…and that would be because it’s hard to argue with the Truth.

 

[Rosinante]

^^^follow up:

Another point to bear in mind when talking with pro’s, is that virtually everything they say that the Bible says–which is at varience with the the Cat. Church says–should be put in proper prespective.

***DO NOT concede that what the Church says or does, contradicts the Bible–this is a TRAP–they always seek to frame the discussion as the Cat. Church VS. the Bible… Do not fall for this.

The distinction which you should hammar constantly, is that what they allege as a ‘discrepancy’ b/t the Bible and the Church, is in fact, a variance of*** interpretation***.

That is: The interpretation of the Bible according to the Aposltes’ hand-picked successors, and their successors/ Church Fathers, vs. the INTERPRETATION of the Reformers–or, as I like to call them–the DE-formers.

'Arguing with pro’s is straight up fun…have fun with it–it’s a great learning experience, and you should find that your relationship with the pro’s you mix it up with, will be enriched–not made worse.

Better to earn their respect, than cower away, and have them pitty you (and worse still, pray that you will ‘get saved’), behind your back.

My advice–engage as often as you can, with as many pro’s as you can–even if you find yourself getting pasted often, early on. The more you ‘lose’, the more your ignorance will be exploited–and the more you will be compelled to rememdy your ignorance.

Exposing your own ignorance to challenge, is the best way reduce it–and, far more importantly–to solidify your Faith.

FWIW: I can assure you–if protestantism could have held water–or even if Cat. doctrine wasn’t backed by Truth…I’d either be pro., or agnostic.

I enjoy mixing it up–but ultimately, it is the Truth, not ‘winning’, that is ‘the thing’.

VIVAT JESUS!