Arguing with a Protestant?

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Do you think you understand scripture? I would like to know if you are authorized to interpret scripture and argue with me. What if you are wrong in your interpretation, if even a little? Doesn’t your Roman magisterium prohibit you from interpreting scripture on your own for this very reason? And that’s exactly what you are doing. But since you have been doing something which is prohibited by your Roman church and won’t stop any time soon, you may as well continue. snipped?
if you decided your pastor has it wrong why you just go start another man made church.🤷
And you think you are authorized?
The Church forbades interpertation of verses that are of doctrinal matter. Others verses we can use as long as our understanding still squares with the Church.
 
I reverted back to Catholicism because I stopped believing in sola scriptura but I still have several friends in Evangelical Churches and I love them dearly. I know they are worried for my soul, but I’ve never been so happy. I keep praying for the Holy Spirit.

Believe it or not, I can refute their arguments to me on a number of ideas without using too much of the Bible.
  1. Man Made Traditions – So what? Where’s Sunday School in the Bible?
  2. Mary – (a) Her assumption into Heaven is taught in Russian, Greek and other Orthodox churches, that it’s not in the Bible but it is readily accepted, even in churches that have no communion with Rome. It’s not just a Catholic idea! (b) There’s no requirement to pray the rosary.
  3. Fasting & Fish Fridays – I explain that the idea is to eat cheaply and save what would have been spent on food for the day and give it to the poor. It’s NOT suppose to be an excuse to go to Red Lobster and gorge yourself until your pants split.
  4. Feet Washing – I was most impressed when I saw this done on Holy Thursday. I had read it in the Bible many times but never seen it done, even in some of the more fundamentalist churches I’ve gone too.
  5. Confession – I say it’s all over the Bible, originally a sin offering.
  6. Communion – Not a symbol, the Jews’ reaction to John 6 tells me so. They were disgusted with what Jesus was saying.
Anyway, those are some of the points I bring up.

Please remember to read and respond in Christian love. What unites us is so much greater than what divides us.
Thanks for the good post welcome to the forum.🙂
 
. Read Mark 14:25, where Jesus said “I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God.” Why did He call it “fruit of the vine” if it was His blood?
This vine represents the Synagogue, according to Isaias. The vine, or vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel. Of this vine Christ drank for some time; and though many of the branches were become useless, there were yet many that still brought forth fruit. But Christ now going to his passion, declares that it would be no longer acceptable to him, since the figures were not to pass into reality. (Ven. Bede)
Hadock Bible Commentory.
 
hello I am back sorry to have taken so long to answer your questions

rfornier 103
Question: How many times must a Christian be born again? Answer: You tell me

answer We are born again one time Please understand that I am not talking about baptism in water. This born again is an awakening in the heart inside ones self where we are transformed by God,s grace.

fb19
now could you answer how you repented of orginal sin?
How did you repent of something you did not commit.

I am not sure how to answer this but I will try to clarify what I was talking about when I am talking about the time of repentance before I was born again

: What I am trying to say is that before one is born again there is a place of repentance. This is different then say a christian sins and repents of it and confesses their sin to God and recieves forgiveness. What I am trying to say is that person before they are saved begins to see themselves as lost on their way to hell . Yes they see their personal sins but it goes far deeper then that .They realize that they are vile, that they are unrighteous, lost that they cannot save themselves, that they are sinners They turn to God and cry out to Him to have mercy on them to save them

I had to admit that I was a sinner to God this is my condition this is what I am I was born this way I inherated this from Adam .God delt with all of this on the cross in His Son Jesus
 
I reverted back to Catholicism because I stopped believing in sola scriptura but I still have several friends in Evangelical Churches and I love them dearly. I know they are worried for my soul, but I’ve never been so happy. I keep praying for the Holy Spirit.

Believe it or not, I can refute their arguments to me on a number of ideas without using too much of the Bible.
  1. Man Made Traditions – So what? Where’s Sunday School in the Bible?
  2. Mary – (a) Her assumption into Heaven is taught in Russian, Greek and other Orthodox churches, that it’s not in the Bible but it is readily accepted, even in churches that have no communion with Rome. It’s not just a Catholic idea! (b) There’s no requirement to pray the rosary.
  3. Fasting & Fish Fridays – I explain that the idea is to eat cheaply and save what would have been spent on food for the day and give it to the poor. It’s NOT suppose to be an excuse to go to Red Lobster and gorge yourself until your pants split.
  4. Feet Washing – I was most impressed when I saw this done on Holy Thursday. I had read it in the Bible many times but never seen it done, even in some of the more fundamentalist churches I’ve gone too.
  5. Confession – I say it’s all over the Bible, originally a sin offering.
  6. Communion – Not a symbol, the Jews’ reaction to John 6 tells me so. They were disgusted with what Jesus was saying.
Anyway, those are some of the points I bring up.

Please remember to read and respond in Christian love. What unites us is so much greater than what divides us.
Well, personally, I think anyone would find it difficult to “argue” with Chocolate. But, that aside, I wish to complement you on your concise yet profound answers to many talking points put forth by some non Catholic Christians. It is important to remember that their concern is for your soul and that is a very benevolent thing. What I try to do is thank them for their gracious concern for my salvation and agree to pray with them… or offer them an intention that needs prayer. As a friendship goes on, they will understand that what we have in common is the key to all salvation and happiness and their “concern” for you lessens. Offering them a little chocolate might not hurt either!:rolleyes:
 
-]Tools like m3rc3d3s190 are useful trolls/-] wait… let’s try again… -]Trolls like m3rc3d3s190 are useful tools/-] (sigh) Okay… We should look at people like m3rc3d3s190 who come to this forum to argue against Catholicism as “sparring partners”. It’s good to practice apologetics, right? Even the Church that Christ founded has people who totally mis-understand Her teachings. It happens to the best of us. 😃
 
Read Mark 14:25, where Jesus said “I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God.” Why did He call it “fruit of the vine” if it was His blood?
Because in John 15:1,5 Jesus said: “I am the vine.” 😃

Also, 1 Cor. 11:27-29 - in these verses, Paul says that eating or drinking in an unworthy manner is the equivalent of profaning (literally, murdering) the Body and Blood of the Lord. If this is just a symbol, we cannot be guilty of actually profaning (murdering) it. We cannot murder a symbol. Either Paul, the divinely inspired apostle of God, is imposing an unjust penalty, or the Eucharist is the actual Body and Blood of Christ. 🤷

How about 1 Cor. 10:16? Paul asks the question, “the cup of blessing and the bread of which we partake, is it not an actual participation in Christ’s body and blood?” Is Paul really asking because He, the divinely inspired writer, does not understand? No, of course not. Paul’s questions are obviously rhetorical. This IS the actual body and blood. Further, the Greek word “koinonia” describes an actual, not symbolic participation in the body and blood. John 6:51-52- then Jesus says that the bread He is referring to is His flesh. The Jews take Him literally and immediately question such a teaching. How can this man give us His flesh to eat?

John 6:53 - 58 - Jesus does not correct their literal interpretation. Instead, Jesus eliminates any metaphorical interpretations by swearing an oath and being even more literal about eating His flesh. In fact, Jesus says four times we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. Catholics thus believe that Jesus makes present His body and blood in the sacrifice of the Mass. Protestants, if they are not going to become Catholic, can only argue that Jesus was somehow speaking symbolically.

John 6:23-53 - however, a symbolic interpretation is not plausible. Throughout these verses, the Greek text uses the word “phago” nine times. “Phago” literally means “to eat” or “physically consume.” Like the Protestants of our day, the disciples take issue with Jesus’ literal usage of “eat.” So Jesus does what?

John 6:54, 56, 57, 58 - He uses an even more literal verb, translated as “trogo,” which means to gnaw or chew or crunch. He increases the literalness and drives his message home. Jesus will literally give us His flesh and blood to eat. The word “trogo” is only used two other times in the New Testament (in Matt. 24:38 and John 13:18) and it always means to literally gnaw or chew meat. While “phago” might also have a spiritual application, “trogo” is never used metaphorically in Greek. So Protestants cannot find one verse in Scripture where “trogo” is used symbolically, and yet this must be their argument if they are going to deny the Catholic understanding of Jesus’ words. Moreover, the Jews already knew Jesus was speaking literally even before Jesus used the word “trogo” when they said “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” (John 6:52).

John 6:55 - to clarify further, Jesus says “For My Flesh is food indeed, and My Blood is drink indeed.” This phrase can only be understood as being responsive to those who do not believe that Jesus’ flesh is food indeed, and His blood is drink indeed. Further, Jesus uses the word which is translated as “sarx.” “Sarx” means flesh (not “soma” which means body). See, for example, John 1:13,14; 3:6; 8:15; 17:2; Matt. 16:17; 19:5; 24:22; 26:41; Mark 10:8; 13:20; 14:38; and Luke 3:6; 24:39 which provides other examples in Scripture where “sarx” means flesh. It is always literal.

John 6:55 - further, the phrases “real” food and “real” drink use the word “alethes.” “Alethes” means “really” or “truly,” and would only be used if there were doubts concerning the reality of Jesus’ flesh and blood as being food and drink. Thus, Jesus is emphasizing the miracle of His body and blood being actual food and drink.

John 6:60 - as are many anti-Catholics today, Jesus’ disciples are scandalized by these words. They even ask, “Who can ‘listen’ to it (much less understand it)?” To the unillumined mind, it seems grotesque.

John 6:61-63 - Jesus acknowledges their disgust. Jesus’ use of the phrase “the spirit gives life” means the disciples need supernatural faith, not logic, to understand His words.

John 3:6 - Jesus often used the comparison of “spirit versus flesh” to teach about the necessity of possessing supernatural faith versus a natural understanding. In Mark 14:38 Jesus also uses the “spirit/flesh” comparison. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We must go beyond the natural to understand the supernatural. In 1 Cor. 2:14,3:3; Rom 8:5; and Gal. 5:17, Paul also uses the “spirit/flesh” comparison to teach that unspiritual people are not receiving the gift of faith. They are still “in the flesh.”

John 6:63 - Protestants often argue that Jesus’ use of the phrase “the spirit gives life” shows that Jesus was only speaking symbolically. However, Protestants must explain why there is not one place in Scripture where “spirit” means “symbolic.” As we have seen, the use of “spirit” relates to supernatural faith. What words are spirit and life? The words that we must eat Jesus’ flesh and drink His blood, or we have no life in us.

John 6:66-67 - many disciples leave Jesus, rejecting this literal interpretation that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. At this point, these disciples really thought Jesus had lost His mind. If they were wrong about the literal interpretation, why wouldn’t Jesus, the Great Teacher, have corrected them? Why didn’t Jesus say, “Hey, come back here, I was only speaking symbolically!”? Because they understood correctly.

(Thanks to www.scripturecatholic.com/ for their assistance.)
 
Well ther has bee quite a few questions since I was here a while ago. I will try to answer them as best I can.

Cranch — I do believe that being born again is not the same as being baptised in water. I do believe that both can happen at the same time. I believe born again is first because when a person that is born again is baptised it is the answer of a clean conscience to God. when a person who has never been born again is baptised it does them no good because they have not repentanted of their sins they have never recieved Christ as saviour and therefore they are still lost. Conversion has not taken place.

.
Hi 7 with hope ! Just a thought ! Have you considered that, being baptised as an infant is a pure act of God,that the Church is doing exactly as Jesus commanded the Apostles to do ? The Parents and God Parents hope for the child in God,what a wonderful welcoming into the world, in obeying God’s word.

Consider this, no one except a infant,can have a completly clear conscience; and makes sense as we cannot accept Jesus as lord and master, unless we first accept baptism as Jesus commands the Apostles when He says just before leaving earth, baptise in jthe name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.Matt.28: 16- 20 .> John 3:1-9 1 Peter 3: 18-22

God Bless
onenow1:)🍿
 
fb19
now could you answer how you repented of orginal sin?
How did you repent of something you did not commit.

I am not sure how to answer this but I will try to clarify what I was talking about when I am talking about the time of repentance before I was born again

: What I am trying to say is that before one is born again there is a place of repentance. This is different then say a christian sins and repents of it and confesses their sin to God and recieves forgiveness. What I am trying to say is that person before they are saved begins to see themselves as lost on their way to hell . Yes they see their personal sins but it goes far deeper then that .They realize that they are vile, that they are unrighteous, lost that they cannot save themselves, that they are sinners They turn to God and cry out to Him to have mercy on them to save them

I had to admit that I was a sinner to God this is my condition this is what I am I was born this way I inherated this from Adam .God delt with all of this on the cross in His Son Jesus
Admission to something you did not commit but were born with still does not remove it.
Forgiveness removes our sins as far as east is from west.
How did Christ’s sacrifice remove orginal sin?
How is forgiveness obtained for orginal sin?For if Christ already dealt with it nobody would be in orginal sin anymore.
 
Well ther has bee quite a few questions since I was here a while ago. I will try to answer them as best I can.



Rosanantie You seem angry at those who are protestant

I also believe that the euchrist is the real body and blood of our Lord Jesus
I have wated before euchristic adoration and have found it the highlight of my day.

where I have gone to church only those who are born again are allowed to partake of holy communion.
A person who is not born again should refrain because they are unworthy’.
One who is saved needs to examine himself for this is serious Paul gives specific instructions and warns us of not discerning the Lord’s body

…and so I ask you: do Protestants have anything as beautiful, as powerful, as compelling, as surreal, yet so real, as the Blessed Sacrament, aka, the Holy Eucharist???

In answer to your question

When a person has been born again the sacraments take on new meaning They do not look the same way as before because they speak of the work that Christ has done deep within ones soul

… .
First, no, I’m not ‘angry’ with pros–afterall, I am married to one. But the basis of protestant theology–juxtaposed against the Catholicism against which it ‘protests’— is simply flawed ab initio and to the core. And I happen enjoy exposing its flaws…and I don’t feel particulalry inclined to “hold punches” when I do–mostly because of teh cock-sured arrogance with which so many pros. condescend down to others (expecially at’s).
It’s called reciprocity. Yeah I know…more “eye for an eye” than “turn the other cheek”–but imo, it’s more effective in getting to Truth, than dancing around, playing patticake.

Secondly–as for being ‘born agian’–the Evangelical conception of being born agian, is no substitute for the Sacraments. The Sacrements come to us from Christ, via the Apostles, via the Church Fathers…the protestant formula of clicking your heels three times, and ‘asking Jesus into your heart’, is a neo-modernist concoction of convenience, that allows the purported new Christian to become so–upon his or her own terms.

It is not at all, the Faith Christ instructed his Apostles in, nor what they conveyed to their successors. Only the end result (one of many, anyway)–which resulted from st. marty’s compromising contortion of the Faith.

Jesus tells us to come to him–not for us to sit back idly, and demand that he come to us.

e.g.–John 5, 39-41: “you diligently study the scriptures, because you think that by them you posses eternal life. These are the Scriputrues that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life”.

VIVAT JESUS!
 
I would like to suggest that Protestants are not the enemy. They are in fact, for the most part, fellow Christians. I might further suggest that the best way to convince them of your truths would be through gentle persuasion and intelligent answers, not bad mouthing their beliefs, and certainly not belittling them in any way. As soon as you accuse someone of closed mindedness, your own mind has been closed to the possibility of making your point in an intelligent manner. Before you post negative comments, pray on what you intend to get across, and write it in a way that you would be proud to show Jesus…

God bless you for standing up for your beliefs, now show everyone that you actually believe and live what you profess.

May the peace of Christ be in you.
For the most part, sure. They are closer to the Truth than say, Islamits, or atheists, or secularists, or Satantists, or wiccans… But when they poach members of the one True Holy and Cat. Apostolic Church that Yeshua founded–then they are drawing ppl. away from the Truth.

Not trying to be ‘antagonistic’–just real.
 
This is a fascinating insight, thank you for sharing. Can you show me where the “office” of the pope is in the Bible? In fact, where is “pope” mentioned? Do you know when Mary was last mentioned? What made her attain her current position? The answers are all based on fabrications/contortions. If you were to examine specific commands and check whether they are being followed by the so-called “church founded by Christ,” why not look at Mark 9:42? Jesus said “And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.” When was the last time you saw a young child valued more than the reputation of your church? Where did the tradition of turning a blind eye come from?
Touched a nerve, did I? 🙂

re. “where is x/y/z in the Bible?”

the line of questioning betrays more ignorance, than it discloses Truth.

I’ll simply reply with an old addage:

"The Church doesn’t teach what it teaches because it’s in the Bible…it’s in the Bible, because that’s what the Church always taught".

…and point out that had Yeshua sought to convey HIS Faith by reducing it to a book (or set of books)…he’d probably have written it (them) Himself, and handed it/them to the Apostles.

The bottom line–the Faith passed on by the Apostles to their successors, on down the line–comprised of oral, Sacred Tradition.

The contorion of the Faith that seeks to confine it to the Bible, and that every person capable of reading then discern their own personal interpretation of the Faith…

…comse to us from Sts Marty, Calvin, Zwingl, et. al.

As always, it comes down to the Church Fathers. vs. the Reformers.

As for the child sex abuse scandal–the Church which Yeshua founded, is comprised of human beings–sinners, one and all, top to bottom. No pretense, otherwise.

Even the Apostles were sinners, and imperfect–e.g.–Judas iscariot betratyed Yeshua for 30 sheckles; St. Peter denied Chirst 3x…St. Paul persecuted Christians…

Doesn’t serve to undo the Church that Yeshua founded–else you claim the Lord lied, whein he promised St. Peter that “…the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it”.
 
John 6:23-53 - however, a symbolic interpretation is not plausible. Throughout these verses, the Greek text uses the word “phago” nine times. “Phago” literally means “to eat” or “physically consume.” Like the Protestants of our day, the disciples take issue with Jesus’ literal usage of “eat.” So Jesus does what?

John 6:54, 56, 57, 58 - He uses an even more literal verb, translated as “trogo,” which means to gnaw or chew or crunch. He increases the literalness and drives his message home. Jesus will literally give us His flesh and blood to eat. The word “trogo” is only used two other times in the New Testament (in Matt. 24:38 and John 13:18) and it always means to literally gnaw or chew meat. While “phago” might also have a spiritual application, “trogo” is never used metaphorically in Greek. So Protestants cannot find one verse in Scripture where “trogo” is used symbolically, and yet this must be their argument if they are going to deny the Catholic understanding of Jesus’ words. Moreover, the Jews already knew Jesus was speaking literally even before Jesus used the word “trogo” when they said “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” (John 6:52).

John 6:55 - to clarify further, Jesus says “For My Flesh is food indeed, and My Blood is drink indeed.” This phrase can only be understood as being responsive to those who do not believe that Jesus’ flesh is food indeed, and His blood is drink indeed. Further, Jesus uses the word which is translated as “sarx.” “Sarx” means flesh (not “soma” which means body). See, for example, John 1:13,14; 3:6; 8:15; 17:2; Matt. 16:17; 19:5; 24:22; 26:41; Mark 10:8; 13:20; 14:38; and Luke 3:6; 24:39 which provides other examples in Scripture where “sarx” means flesh. It is always literal.
As I read in complete agreement I was moved by the juxtaposition of John’s circular and figurative writing style against the exactness of his vocabulary. I imagine that in Greek that there’s an even stronger emphasis in Jesus’ words to the Jews. John has always struck me to be a symbolic writer–yet the lack of ambiguities here is like a cold shower. The literalness is raw and naked.

Thanks for the warm welcome to all!
 
Welcome to CAF chero 23!
Code:
I don't know how many people have had arguments with Protestants about Our Faith, whether that we don't abide by the bible, or that we follow man made tradition. After hearing Apologists like Michael Cumbie, Scott Hahn, Stephen Ray, John Martignoni, Marcus Grodi, and reading documents about the Early Church Fathers, my mind is clear that our Catholic Church is the One True Church that Jesus Christ established.
Having said that, Protestants will argue about our beliefs. As CAF members when arguing with a Protestant, has anybody ever showed 1Timothy 3:15 I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that, 15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. If you have, How did the Protestant react? Paul states that the Church (he is speaking of 1 church, not churhes) is the Truth.
Yes, I have found that many Protestants have never “seen” this verse, just as there are other verses that seem to sit in that blind spot.

Those that seriously ponder the meaning come back with the response that the Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth, and is there to support and uphold the Truth, which is the Holy Scripture. As you can imagine, we are then back to square one.
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 Also when they mention that we have man made tradition, the correct is, Yes, by those that the Apostles passed on to us. As Paul states in 2Thessalonian 2:14-15  To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. Paul basically destroys Sola Scriptura alone in this verse.
I think it is very important to distinguish here between Sacred Tradition, which came from the Apostles, and man made traditions. The Apostle here is speaking of the liturgy, eucharist, prayers and practices that are part of the infallible faith preserved in the Church. He received it through the Church:

Acts 2:42
42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

These practices that are handed down complement the Word of God that is in writing, and are not “traditions of men”.

1 Thess 2:13-14
word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

The Word of God at work in the Church is Sacred Tradition. Traditions of men are customs, language, manners of dress, and habits that are changeable, unlike the Word of God, which we must preserve exactly as it was received.
Having said that, has anybody read the Church Fathers by Jimmy Akin, Early History tells you that the Catholic Church is the 1 and only. These 2 verses alone destroy Sola Scriptura and it also shows that Tradition was the way Jesus intended for his church to be.
What do you think?
I think that Protestants don’t really believe that the HS is more powerful than people. They seem to believe that the Word of God can be damaged, mutilated and lost by the corruption of men, which is the reason they reject that the Word of God is alive and well in the Church. They can rely on Sola Scriptura because they are able to believe God can preserve His written word,but the part of the Word of God that is alive and well in the Church is beyond His power to preserve.

Isa 55:10-11
For as the rain and the snow comes down from heaven,
and return not thither but water the earth,
making it bring forth and sprout,
giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
11 so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

Catholics believe that God sent His Word via the Apostles to be placed in the Church, to perfect the Church to be His Holy Bride. He is able to maintain and preserve that Word at work in the believers until He comes again.

Jude 3
3 Beloved, being very eager to write to you of our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

The Sacred Tradition, the Word of God at work in the Church, is part of the once for all divine deposit of faith, along with the Holy Writings, which were produced out of those Sacred Tradtitions (which came first) must be defended along with those writings.
 
But you know what I mean, they like to say that we have man made traditions (almost like pagan like tradition)
It is true, and we have a lot of them. For example, the pope wears red shoes, and all the bishops have interesting hats. The successor of Peter also sits in a chair with an upside down cross, as a memorial to St. Peter, who did not consider himself worthy to be crucified right side up.

The Church early on took the custom of placing Christian holidays on top of Pagan celebrations, which is one reason we celebrate Jesus’ birthday on Dec. 25th. We don’t really know the date He was born, so the Church chose a date. It has not been revealed by God, so is not part of Sacred Tradition. Having traditions of men is not problematic, so long as they don’t conflict with the Word of God. I think it is best to focus on one of the most well known Sacred Traditions in the Protestant world, which is the canon of scriptures. The Bible does not come with a table of contents. That table of contents came to us through Sacred Tradition. Another common Sacred Tradition is the Trinity, a word which does not appear in the NT but which all Protestants accept. Sunday worship is another. Most cannot give a biblical reason why they do this. Ask them to defend why they dont’ keep the Sabbath on Saturday?
 
It is true, and we have a lot of them. For example, the pope wears red shoes, and all the bishops have interesting hats. The successor of Peter also sits in a chair with an upside down cross, as a memorial to St. Peter, who did not consider himself worthy to be crucified right side up.

The Church early on took the custom of placing Christian holidays on top of Pagan celebrations, which is one reason we celebrate Jesus’ birthday on Dec. 25th. We don’t really know the date He was born, so the Church chose a date. It has not been revealed by God, so is not part of Sacred Tradition. Having traditions of men is not problematic, so long as they don’t conflict with the Word of God. I think it is best to focus on one of the most well known Sacred Traditions in the Protestant world, which is the canon of scriptures. The Bible does not come with a table of contents. That table of contents came to us through Sacred Tradition. Another common Sacred Tradition is the Trinity, a word which does not appear in the NT but which all Protestants accept. Sunday worship is another. Most cannot give a biblical reason why they do this. Ask them to defend why they dont’ keep the Sabbath on Saturday?
👍 As as always ! What does Obl, OSB stand for ?

God Bless
 
I was born again august 19 1974 at 3 am in the morning.

In John chapter 3 Jesus said to Nicodemus that unless you are born again you cannot see the kingdom of God. Ephesions 1 :1-5 shows us that we are considered by God to be dead in trespasses and in sins. When a person is born again they are made alive unto God.

Before I recieved Christ as my saviour I came to the place in my life that I knew that I was a sinner and that I was going to hell. I also knew that there was nothing that I could do to save myself, even if I lived a good life and went to church. I knew that it wouldnt help. I was under such conviction. I knew I was going to hell if I died. I remembered a preacher saying if you wanted to be saved read the book of John and it would tell you how. I also remembered a scripture that said seek and ye shall find . This is how I found salvation. Or better said it is how the Lord saved me.

Before one is born again there is a time that they realise that they are not saved. Unless they can come to the place that they are lost and a sinner in need of God’s saveing grace they will never be born again. Next they go through a process of repentance where they turn from their sins and cry out to God for Him to save them from their sins. God hears their prayer in His time. I will add this here that they even though they are turning away from there sins they do not escape them, only God can set them free from them. This prosess has no set length of time That is up to God as to how long it takes.

After I was born again my whole life changed I knew that God had forgiven me of my sins For the first time in my life I had peace. I knew that I was saved and going to heaven. I was brought into a relationship with God through Jesus His son where when I called Him Father it was real. My whole life changed after that point. I was different from the inside I was a new person. I no longer wanted to live in sin. I actually despised them and I found myself free of them. I also had such a hunger for God’s word and prayer. I even loved going to church services something that I used to not like. I couldnt get enough of God I fell in love with Him over and over again and I have never been the same since.

I hope this give an answer to your questions.

Is there anything like this in the Catholic church ? Have any of you ever had something like that happen in your life. ?
It is a beautiful personal testimony. However, that is not born again but a result of being born again. Yes, we are born again when we are baptized where we are born of water and the Spirit. No one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. (Jn 3:5) So it is with everyone born of the Spirit. (Jn 3:8)

The Spirit convicts us of our sins and we know sins as they are and will not want to commit them. What you experienced in your testimony was a personal conversion where you repented of your sins and became a new creature of God.

Of course I have heard how Billy Graham spoke about being born again but the scripture clearly tells us that being born again is of water and Spirit. In other word, by Baptism.
 
I don’t know how many people have had arguments with Protestants about Our Faith, whether that we don’t abide by the bible, or that we follow man made tradition. After hearing Apologists like Michael Cumbie, Scott Hahn, Stephen Ray, John Martignoni, Marcus Grodi, and reading documents about the Early Church Fathers, my mind is clear that our Catholic Church is the One True Church that Jesus Christ established.
Having said that, Protestants will argue about our beliefs. As CAF members when arguing with a Protestant, has anybody ever showed 1Timothy 3:15 I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that, 15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. If you have, How did the Protestant react? Paul states that the Church (he is speaking of 1 church, not churhes) is the Truth.
Also when they mention that we have man made tradition, the correct is, Yes, by those that the Apostles passed on to us. As Paul states in 2Thessalonian 2:14-15 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. Paul basically destroys Sola Scriptura alone in this verse.
Having said that, has anybody read the Church Fathers by Jimmy Akin, Early History tells you that the Catholic Church is the 1 and only. These 2 verses alone destroy Sola Scriptura and it also shows that Tradition was the way Jesus intended for his church to be.
What do you think?
You should never argue with another Christian for any reason. To prove this point I will quote the:
“Catholic Catechism”
John A. Hardon, S.J.
Nihil Obstat: William B. Smith, S.T.D., Censor Librorum
Imprimatur: + Joseph T. O’Keefe, Vicar General Archdiocese of New York, July 7, 1981.

Part One DOCTRINES OF THE FAITH
VII. THE CHURCH

CATHOLIC ECUMENISM

" The Second Vatican Council began by noting that there had been divisions among Christians from the beginning and , as these became ecclesiastically structured, many persons were born into churches now separated from visible unity with the successors of the apostles under Peter. But they cannot now be chaged with sin for being separated. They are, in fact, embraced by the Catholic Church as brethren and should be treated with respect and affection.
Such persons are Chrisians as long as they have been truly baptized and believe in Christ. They are consequently “established in a fellowship with the Catholic Church, even if the fellowship be incomplete.” Moreover, “they are incorporated in Christ,” and they possess " a number of the important elements or gifts from which the Church derives her structure and life." Thus they have “the written word of God, the life of grace, faith, hope, and charity, and ot the inward gifts and visible elements from the Holy Spirit.”
They also perform certain ritual actions that are sources of grace for themselves and those to whom they minister. “Christ’s Spirit,” therefore, “has not refused to employ them as means of salvation,” so that their “churches and commiunities,” though deficient by Catholic standards, pertain to the mystery of redemption.
Catholicism then adds one inevitable limitation. These Christians are not blessed with the unity that Christ wants his followers to possess. They also lack the fullness of those benefits of the New Covenant that Christ entrusted “to the apostolic college over which Peter presides.”
On the practical level, this means that Catholics should avoid any words, judgments, or actions that do not correspond to what other Christians believe or do. Positively, they should engage in dealogue with separated brethren through descussion, co-operative action, and corporate prayer. Such dialogue presumes study and te desires to learn how the Orthodox, Anglicans, and Protestants worship, what they believe, and how their allegiance to Christ has affected their lives.
More important than anything else, however, is “spiritual ecumenism,” which can best be seen as reversing in the future what had been done in the past. One of the main reasons historically for Christian disunity was the disloyalty to Christ among those who called themselves Catholic. Their religios descendants today cannot do better to advance the causre of unity than to follow the Savior with great generosity, notably in the love of his cross, in order to contribute to the “daily cleansing and renewal of the Chuch, which carries the lowly and dying sate of Jesus in its body, until Christ shall summon it into his Presence in all its beauty” at the end of time. "
 
Help me out here. I can’t find the part of the Catechism you are quoting. Please give paragraph numbers.

The word, ecumenism, appears only twice in the Catechism. (I used the search engine at scborromeo.org.) Neither paragraph resembles what you are quoting! Again, help me out!

As for arguing with fellow Christians, if you mean fighting, you’re quite right. Getting up in someone’s face, and especially telling them that they are WRONG, only makes the other person go into defense mode, which means they will not hear anything you say.

But that is only one out of several definitions of argument. thefreedictionary.com/argument One of them is, “A discussion in which disagreement is expressed; a debate.”

In that sense of the word, we can argue all day long - as long as we have and use charity. Without charity, we’re just making noise. (See 1 Cor 13.) The greatest charity I can have for another person is to help them get to Heaven; and the surest road to Heaven is the Catholic Church. For that I can pray with all love, and for that I can do my feeble best in the arena of words.
 
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