Arguing with a Protestant?

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chero23

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I don’t know how many people have had arguments with Protestants about Our Faith, whether that we don’t abide by the bible, or that we follow man made tradition. After hearing Apologists like Michael Cumbie, Scott Hahn, Stephen Ray, John Martignoni, Marcus Grodi, and reading documents about the Early Church Fathers, my mind is clear that our Catholic Church is the One True Church that Jesus Christ established.
Having said that, Protestants will argue about our beliefs. As CAF members when arguing with a Protestant, has anybody ever showed 1Timothy 3:15 I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that, 15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. If you have, How did the Protestant react? Paul states that the Church (he is speaking of 1 church, not churhes) is the Truth.
Also when they mention that we have man made tradition, the correct is, Yes, by those that the Apostles passed on to us. As Paul states in 2Thessalonian 2:14-15 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. Paul basically destroys Sola Scriptura alone in this verse.
Having said that, has anybody read the Church Fathers by Jimmy Akin, Early History tells you that the Catholic Church is the 1 and only. These 2 verses alone destroy Sola Scriptura and it also shows that Tradition was the way Jesus intended for his church to be.
What do you think?
 
In my experience, 99.999% of the time they just ignore what you say. And they usually combine that with a series of rapid-fire red herrings such as the Crusades (unaware that the Crusades saved Europe from Islamic extremist conquest), the Inquisition (unaware that it was the state, not the Church that sentenced people to death), and scandals in the Church (oblivious to the fact that scandals happen among Protestant preachers more than with priests).
 
chero23 said:
Also when they mention that we have man made tradition, the correct is, Yes, by those that the Apostles passed on to us. As Paul states in 2Thessalonian 2:14-15 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. Paul basically destroys Sola Scriptura alone in this verse
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Do not concede that language. We do not have man-made Tradition. It is handed on by men but it is not from men. Sacred Tradition comes from God just as Sacred Scripture does:

80 “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal.” Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age”.

81 “Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit.”

“And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching.”

**Apostolic Tradition and ecclesial traditions
**
83 The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus’ teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.

Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church’s Magisterium.

That last paragraph refers to what might be called man-made small “t” tradition. It may be the Protestants would like to mistake Sacred Tradition for these various practices but that would be wrong.
 
But you know what I mean, they like to say that we have man made traditions (almost like pagan like tradition)
 
chero23 said:
But you know what I mean, they like to say that we have man made traditions (almost like pagan like tradition)
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how ever your “oppent” would consider that you useing the phrase in that manner an admission.
 
There is no point in arguing with those who are entrenched in their position. Your best bet is to askt hem questions about their own beleifs and why they hold them. Keep the focus there and it will cause them to think about their own belief system and how they arrived there. Then, they may starte to question or look into the matter more deeply and they may surprise you by doing their own research and coming aback to you later with honest questions and concerns instead of the usual protestant “talking points” of detractors of the Catholic faith. If you learn what they believe and get them to thinking about why they beleive as they do, it could be a winning situation for both of you. 🙂
 
I am by NO means a apologist or a theological scholar half the time I don;t even feel I’m a good enough Catholic but I do know my faith as I was taught growing up and I am frinds with more than 1 Priest and Deacon over the years. I have had “arguments” over the years over catholic teachings and protestantism. I actually married one of them and she converted to become a catholic. The others now do not have a deep rooted hatred of the church though. I have found the biggest misconception is that the catholic church does not have any scriptual foundation and we don’t base our faith on Jesus Christ but on the Pope. I have found that Love is the best argument that we could fight back with. what I mean by this is that when you care about someone you don’t fight with them but patiently try to show them where they are mistaken. The ultimate deal breaker is just to say if they are so confident that the church is intristically evil - non-scriptual and false teachings why don’t you come to a mass with me ? if they agree to come it all of a sudden becomes uhhhhhh like most of it all comes from the bible after going over it with them they actually realize it is all based on the bible. Now we could through Paul out there about tradition and the fact that Jesus handed the keys to the church over to Peter and we have apostolic succesion but do so tactfully and not to anger or argue but to bring them to the church.
 
The few that actually listen to me are usually stumped on this but try to find their way out by using other excuses. Me trying to learn the Faith, are stumped by them. Then I learn later what I should have said. Thank God because I wouldn’t have looked those things up
 
chero23 said:
Paul basically destroys Sola Scriptura alone in this verse.
Having said that, has anybody read the Church Fathers by Jimmy Akin, Early History tells you that the Catholic Church is the 1 and only. These 2 verses alone destroy Sola Scriptura and it also shows that Tradition was the way Jesus intended for his church to be.
What do you think?
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I do not think your response correctly sums up the situation. If Paul “destroys” Sola Scriptura, what is Jesus suggesting about tradition when He tells the Pharisees that they “nullify the Word of God” with their traditions? This is in Matthew 15:6.
 
m3rc3d3s190 said:
I do not think your response correctly sums up the situation. If Paul “destroys” Sola Scriptura, what is Jesus suggesting about tradition when He tells the Pharisees that they “nullify the Word of God” with their traditions? This is in Matthew 15:6.
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Was Jesus speaking to Catholics? Nope to the pharisees. Big difference.
 
as a protestant I should of cause comment and ask if you want the 5 minute argument or the longer one:)

Now let’s start a simple argument, why would you believe that Jesus made wine at the wedding in Canaan. Would it not be against the truth and against his later teachings - in fact against the logos that is God? To me fiddling with OH molecules and flavours is a cheap magicians trick but the miracle is to turn water into wine without making wine.
 
Arguing with protestants is like an argument between democrats and republicans. Nobody wins. I was told to just walk away from it. A waste of time. Let the Lord deal with it. Surely, we know who the winner is.
 
livingwordunity said:
In my experience, 99.999% of the time they just ignore what you say.
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Right now, I’m in the middle of an ongoing questions and answers session with a protestant. She’s actually curious about our Faith! I’m amazed and blessed to say that I found that 0.001%!👍
 
5am said:
Arguing with protestants is like an argument between democrats and republicans. Nobody wins. I was told to just walk away from it. A waste of time. Let the Lord deal with it. Surely, we know who the winner is.
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I strongly disagree.

Protestants are not used to knowledgeable Catholics and when you show that you know what you’re talking about and can destroy the nonsense that they come out with it can have an incredible effect.
 
Just my 2 cents as an Anglican, who regonizes the role of Sacred Tradition as undertsood by the Early Church- The protestant follows man-made trditions too. Where in the Bible is the alter call? Nowhere. Where is the teaching of s “secret rapture” that some believe in? nowhere. I regonize Sacred Tradition as guaiding us in understanding Scripture, while at the same time insisting on the Primacy of Scripture. My journey isn’t over and I am always willing to learn.
 
chero23 said:
Also when they mention that we have man made tradition, the correct is, Yes, by those that the Apostles passed on to us. As Paul states in 2Thessalonian 2:14-15 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. Paul basically destroys Sola Scriptura alone in this verse.
Having said that, has anybody read the Church Fathers by Jimmy Akin, Early History tells you that the Catholic Church is the 1 and only. These 2 verses alone destroy Sola Scriptura and it also shows that Tradition was the way Jesus intended for his church to be.
What do you think?
Click to expand...
This verse does not destroy sola scriptura, because the traditions Paul is talking about are the "words of mouth and the letters"of he and the other Apostles. The words and letters of the Apostles are scripture too. 2 Peter 3 : 15 and 16 “…just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things which are hard to understand which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other scriptures…” Peter here teaches that the letters of the Apostles are scripture.

As a protestant I would have no problem accepting the traditions of the RCC as athuritative if I could be convinced of Apostolic session, and those traditions didn’t contridict scripture.

2 Timothy 3:16and17 “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
Is this verse in 2 Timothy true or not?
 
Rchapm77, I want you to think, Christianity didn’t begin in the 1500s when Martin Luther did the Protestant Revolution. The Bible was not given to us until the year 390. So lets do the math. Jesus Christ was crucified and resurrected in the year 33, the bible was not given to us 357 yrs later. So rchapm77, how was early christianity celebrated? Isn’t that were Paul’s quote says, follow what I have you told you orally or written negates sola scriptura.How about that 6 of the 13 Apostles (i’m including Paul as the 13rd Apostle) don’t have any writtings in the bible, What happened to them, do ou think that after Jesus was crucified they were irrevelant? Paul also states in 1Timothy 3:!5, that if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. I ask you what Church is that? I don’t think God had visioned 44,000 Christian denominations. Returning to Sola Scriptura, if that is the way, why are there 44,000 Protestant denominations. Do you think God is out of mind and has 44,000 different ways of interpreting scripture.

You mention apostolic succession, Im going to give you some verses, Matt. 10:1,40; Matt. 16:19; 18:18; Luke 9:1; 10:19; Luke 10:16; Luke 22:29; Num 16:28
John 5:30;John 7:16-17; John 8:28 ;John 12:49; John 13:20 ;John 14:10 John 16:14-15; John 1:18; 20:21;Acts 20:28; 1 Peter 2:25 ;Jer. 23:1-8; Ezek. 34:1-10 -
Eph. 2:20; Rev. 21:9,14;Acts 1:15-26; Acts 1:20-22; Acts 6:6; Acts 9:17-19; Acts 13:Acts 14:23; Acts 15:22-27; 2 Cor. 1:21-22; Col 1:25- Paul calls his position a divine “office.” An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it’s not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.
1 Tim. 3:1; 1 Tim. 4:14; 1 Tim. 5:22; 2 Tim. 1:6; 2 Tim. 4:1-6; 2 Tim. 2:2; Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1;1 John 4:6; Exodus 18:25-26; Exodus 40:15; Numbers 3:3; Numbers 16:40;
Numbers 27:18-20; Deut. 34:9; Sirach 45:15; Acts 5:13; Acts 15:6,24; 16:4; Rom. 15:16 – 1 Cor. 5:3-5; 16:22; 1 Tim. 1:20; Gal 1:8; Matt 18:17; 2 Cor. 2:17; 2 Cor. 3:6; 2 Cor. 5:20 - 2 Cor. 10:6-8; 1 Thess. 5:12-13; 2 Thess. 3:14; 1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 2:15; Heb. 12:9; Heb. 13:7,17; 1 Peter 2:18; 1 Peter 5:5; Jude 8 ; 2 Peter 2:10; 3 John 9; Deut. 17:10-13 ;Num. 16:1-35; Sirach 7:29-30
 
You seem to be presenting a number of different scriptures and historical facts. Just view yourself as planting seeds that may sprout later. While you may feel that you didn’t win the argument or win them over then, you are planting seeds that may bare fruit later.
 
I’ll wager to say that the vast majority of arguments between Christians of different denominations center around the mysteries of God and the mysteries of Heaven. Mysteries taught from Sacred Tradition. Sacred Tradition includes both Holy Scripture and that which was taught and verbally handed down that could not be contained within all the books in the world at the time. A sacred tradition that outside of ones acceptance of the teachings of Christ’s Apostolic Church can only be proven in the world to come. I’ll also venture to say that the vast majority of these disagreements have nothing to do with our salvation found in and through Christ.
It is good to understand that all Protestant Christians are in partial communion with the Apostolic Catholic Church. Read carefully. I am not saying - all Protestants, but I said, Protestant Christians. If this were not so, than the Pope our Vicar of Christ on earth would not refer to Protestant Christians as Christians.
If one has accepted the Holy Trinity: is baptised whithin the rite of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost; loves the Lord our God; and their neighbor; and also does chairitable deeds out of their love of God, then why are you arguing with such a child of God? Please for the sake of God save your apoligetics for non Christians: Muslims, Buddhist, etc… All those who do not acknolege Jesus the Christ as Lord and God.
Invite other Christians to a Catolic Church with you. Just ask your friends to simply listen carefully to every word spoken from the beginning to the end of the Mass. Than ask your friends if they found anything spoken improper to their beliefs or damaging to the salvation of a Christian. There are many, many false beliefs concerning the Catholic Church and our practices out in the world, but these are quickly nulifyed with simple visits to our worship services, Masses.
I find apoligetics with our brother and sister Christians most commonly only ends in flaring tempers leading to hatred. Why do you wish to play the fiddle for the devils dance? Instead invite your brothers and sisters in Christ to Mass for the sole intention of pointing out what is improper and wrong with our Catholic service. Don’t forget the daily Masses if your friends are simply to busy with their church on Sundays. It’s a good thing to be busy about the business of our Lord.
I guess, what I’m trying to say is that apoligetics is not needed right off the bat with fellow Christians that are in partial communion with the Catholic Church and don’t even realize it. But, what is needed is a simple invitation to the Mass, so they might study it and come to the fullness of truth.
 
chero23 said:
I don’t know how many people have had arguments with Protestants about Our Faith, whether that we don’t abide by the bible, or that we follow man made tradition. After hearing Apologists like Michael Cumbie, Scott Hahn, Stephen Ray, John Martignoni, Marcus Grodi, and reading documents about the Early Church Fathers, my mind is clear that our Catholic Church is the One True Church that Jesus Christ established.
Having said that, Protestants will argue about our beliefs. As CAF members when arguing with a Protestant, has anybody ever showed 1Timothy 3:15 I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that, 15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. If you have, How did the Protestant react? Paul states that the Church (he is speaking of 1 church, not churhes) is the Truth.
Also when they mention that we have man made tradition, the correct is, Yes, by those that the Apostles passed on to us. As Paul states in 2Thessalonian 2:14-15 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. Paul basically destroys Sola Scriptura alone in this verse.
Having said that, has anybody read the Church Fathers by Jimmy Akin, Early History tells you that the Catholic Church is the 1 and only. These 2 verses alone destroy Sola Scriptura and it also shows that Tradition was the way Jesus intended for his church to be.
What do you think?
Click to expand...
I’d recommend not so much arguing to win, but arguing (in the sense of convincing discussion as opposed to yelling 😉 ) to explain the Faith without necessarily focusing on “winning” anything. There is a GREAT and WONDERFL book that goes into depth on how NOT to share the Faith…and a discussion about it here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=721056
 
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