Argument against Deism

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chrsbrosky

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Hello all,

I am currently discussing with two friends about the necessity of prayer. The first doesn’t see prayer as something truly necessary, for whatever we’re praying for simply “happens or doesn’t happen”.

The second friend says he has trouble attributing blessings and good events to the Lord (example: Thanking God for keeping someone safe in a tragedy) because of the same “50/50” chance of a prayer being answered.

Being somewhat of a deist, my first friend believes that God doesn’t interact with humanity at all, and I am confused as to how to reply to his and my other friends questions about prayer. Any suggestions? I apologize if I was confusing.

Thanks, and God bless.
 
chrsbrosky said:
Hello all,

I am currently discussing with two friends about the necessity of prayer. The first doesn’t see prayer as something truly necessary, for whatever we’re praying for simply “happens or doesn’t happen”.

The second friend says he has trouble attributing blessings and good events to the Lord (example: Thanking God for keeping someone safe in a tragedy) because of the same “50/50” chance of a prayer being answered.

Being somewhat of a deist, my first friend believes that God doesn’t interact with humanity at all, and I am confused as to how to reply to his and my other friends questions about prayer. Any suggestions? I apologize if I was confusing.

Thanks, and God bless.
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Jesus prayed. That answers the first question (necessity of prayer) for you, as a Christian. It won’t answer this for an atheist or agnostic or (for that matter) anyone in any faith system that doesn’t acknowledge Jesus as the actual incarnation of God.

The second question: Jesus told us a “wicked generation asks for signs”…but God does give us signs, every day, and does even “speak” to us, every day. Most people don’t listen, so they don’t hear. And I posit the possibility that, after a time, God stops speaking to such a person.

The interaction with God and humanity, your third problem, is historically provable. And, there will be those that say this proof is bogus. There will always be doubters and there will certainly always be those who fight faith in God with everything they’ve got. Most of the time, there are reasonable explanations for this sort of rabid atheism (life circumstances, etc.)

This entire topic most likely has several tens of thousands of books that address it. Perhaps you should begin with the Bible itself.
 
I was an atheist once, but when I decided to believe in God I skipped over Deism and went straight for Christ. Here is the curious position of the Deist as I see it. He believes God created the universe and then turned His back on it. Then why did He create it in the first place? I decided long ago that most scientists tend to value intellect and devalue emotions.They like the deist God because this God fits comfortably in their heads, not in their hearts.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
I was an atheist once, but when I decided to believe in God I skipped over Deism and went straight for Christ. Here is the curious position of the Deist as I see it. He believes God created the universe and then turned His back on it. Then why did He create it in the first place? .
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👍 Precisely. The deist position makes no logical sense, for the reason you stated. I’d rather be a naturalist, but that position makes no logical sense either 😉

See:
“Naturalism is true”: A self-contradictory statement
 
Charlemagne_II said:
I was an atheist once, but when I decided to believe in God I skipped over Deism and went straight for Christ. Here is the curious position of the Deist as I see it. He believes God created the universe and then turned His back on it. Then why did He create it in the first place? I decided long ago that most scientists tend to value intellect and devalue emotions.They like the deist God because this God fits comfortably in their heads, not in their hearts.
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From my understanding of Deism you are misrepresenting it. Rather than “turning His back” on the world, it is the view that nothing needs to be done.

Gen 1:31 God saw all he had made, and indeed it was very good. Evening came and morning came: the sixth day.

God intervening does present the curious problem that His creation was flawed from the inception and needs upkeep. Why would He create it flawed?
 
Deism

**From my understanding of Deism you are misrepresenting it. Rather than “turning His back” on the world, it is the view that nothing needs to be done. **

This is not true. Look at any of the Deists from the 18th century, for example, when Deism was all the rage. You see them uniformly unengaged in any kind of spiritual relationship with God as Person. Voltaire, for example, or Thomas Paine. They repudiated religion as traditionally understood. Einstein was of the same ilk. He believed in God as a force and repudiated atheism, but he did not believe that God was engaged in any personal relationship with us. How else would this be characterized than that God has turned his back on his own creation?

**God intervening does present the curious problem that His creation was flawed from the inception and needs upkeep. Why would He create it flawed? **

He did not create it flawed. We have “flawed” it. God intervenes to set right what we (and malicious Satan) have ruined.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Deism

**From my understanding of Deism you are misrepresenting it. Rather than “turning His back” on the world, it is the view that nothing needs to be done. **

This is not true. Look at any of the Deists from the 18th century, for example, when Deism was all the rage. You see them uniformly unengaged in any kind of spiritual relationship with God as Person. Voltaire, for example, or Thomas Paine. They repudiated religion as traditionally understood. Einstein was of the same ilk. He believed in God as a force and repudiated atheism, but he did not believe that God was engaged in any personal relationship with us. How else would this be characterized than that God has turned his back on his own creation?

**God intervening does present the curious problem that His creation was flawed from the inception and needs upkeep. Why would He create it flawed? **

He did not create it flawed. We have “flawed” it. God intervenes to set right what we (and malicious Satan) have ruined.
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It can characterized as God that thinks that things are as they should be.

He created us and Satan. If we were the fouling angents then we were less than perfect and created by Him.
 
Roscoe
**
He created us and Satan. If we were the fouling angents then we were less than perfect and created by Him. **

Everything created by God is less than perfect because only God is perfect. 👍
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Roscoe
**
He created us and Satan. If we were the fouling angents then we were less than perfect and created by Him. **

Everything created by God is less than perfect because only God is perfect. 👍
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So again - he created a flawed world if only He is perfect.
 
Rosco

**So again - he created a flawed world if only He is perfect. **

Not to be stubborn, but …

He created an imperfect world; we “flawed” it.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Rosco

**So again - he created a flawed world if only He is perfect. **

Not to be stubborn, but …

He created an imperfect world; we “flawed” it.
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Are you saying there were/are two perfect things God and the world pre fall or are you saying there is only one perfect thing.

If you are saying that there is only one perfect thing, God that would mean that the world was not perfect but flawed.

Can’t have it both ways.
 
Roscoe

**If you are saying that there is only one perfect thing, God that would mean that the world was not perfect but flawed.

Can’t have it both ways. **

The opposite of perfect is imperfect, not flawed. 😃

But have it your way! 👍

Not sure as to what any of this has to do with an argument against Deism.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Roscoe

**If you are saying that there is only one perfect thing, God that would mean that the world was not perfect but flawed.

Can’t have it both ways. **

The opposite of perfect is imperfect, not flawed. 😃

But have it your way! 👍

Not sure as to what any of this has to do with an argument against Deism.
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Imperfect and flawed are synonymous. So God made and imperfect world. Why would’ve make an imperfect world that needs fixing / intervention?
The point I was trying to make was Deist view is that there is no need to intervene. The world is self sustaining. He hasn’t turned his back on the world which was your representation of the Deist view of God.
 
Roscoe
**
The point I was trying to make was Deist view is that there is no need to intervene. The world is self sustaining. He hasn’t turned his back on the world which was your representation of the Deist view of God. **

Of course God made the universe and the laws that govern it. By sustaining these laws it may be said that he has not turned his back on the universe. That is not what we are talking about. We are talking about whether God made the universe and then turned his back on us … that is, he wants no personal relationship with us. That was the view of the Deists all the way to modern times, including Einstein, who allowed for a God but not a personal God who wants to be friends with us up close and personal.

**Imperfect and flawed are synonymous. So God made and imperfect world. Why would’ve make an imperfect world that needs fixing / intervention? **

Imperfect and flawed are not synonymous. God made us imperfect of necessity because only God is perfect. Part of our imperfection (not a flaw) is that he made us to have free will. He gave us the power to choose good and evil. This is a power, not a flaw. However, when we first chose evil,** we introduced the great flaw into our creation … yet we can be redeemed from that flaw … original sin. **
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Roscoe
**
The point I was trying to make was Deist view is that there is no need to intervene. The world is self sustaining. He hasn’t turned his back on the world which was your representation of the Deist view of God. **

Of course God made the universe and the laws that govern it. By sustaining these laws it may be said that he has not turned his back on the universe. That is not what we are talking about. We are talking about whether God made the universe and then turned his back on us … that is, he wants no personal relationship with us. That was the view of the Deists all the way to modern times, including Einstein, who allowed for a God but not a personal God who wants to be friends with us up close and personal.

**Imperfect and flawed are synonymous. So God made and imperfect world. Why would’ve make an imperfect world that needs fixing / intervention? **

Imperfect and flawed are not synonymous. God made us imperfect of necessity because only God is perfect. Part of our imperfection (not a flaw) is that he made us to have free will. He gave us the power to choose good and evil. This is a power, not a flaw. However, when we first chose evil,** we introduced the great flaw into our creation … yet we can be redeemed from that flaw … original sin. **
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According to webster you are wrong flawed and imperfect are synonymous

merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/imperfect

I can infer by your statement the only thing that is perfect is Yahweh God. The world is flawed or imperfect whichever terminology you prefer. You still haven’t answered why God would create an imperfect world.

The Deist view of God didn’t turn His back on US He just didn’t feel the need to intervene.

So why did Yahweh create an imperfect world? You haven’t answered it.
 
chrsbrosky said:
Hello all,

I am currently discussing with two friends about the necessity of prayer. The first doesn’t see prayer as something truly necessary, for whatever we’re praying for simply “happens or doesn’t happen”.

The second friend says he has trouble attributing blessings and good events to the Lord (example: Thanking God for keeping someone safe in a tragedy) because of the same “50/50” chance of a prayer being answered.

Being somewhat of a deist, my first friend believes that God doesn’t interact with humanity at all, and I am confused as to how to reply to his and my other friends questions about prayer. Any suggestions? I apologize if I was confusing.

Thanks, and God bless.
Click to expand...
You can’t pray for things you are equidistant with, like 50/50
 
Roscoe

**You still haven’t answered why God would create an imperfect world. **

I’ve answered your question several times. This is the last time.

God alone is perfect, so how can God create a perfect world? :confused:
 
Deism relies on reason alone without revelation. Therefore all mysticism is repudiated. Traditional religions are regarded as superstitions. You will not find in the writings of Deists anything beyond lip service to the notion that Deism includes reference to morals, everlasting life, heaven and hell, etc. When you read the writings of Jefferson, Paine and Voltaire, for examples, you find theists but you search in vain to find God seeking a loving relationship with men. This is what we must remember above all about Deists. For them God is cold and distant, present but with his back turned to us. Though Deists place a high value on reason, this view is decidedly irrational.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Deism relies on reason alone without revelation. Therefore all mysticism is repudiated. Traditional religions are regarded as superstitions. You will not find in the writings of Deists anything beyond lip service to the notion that Deism includes reference to morals, everlasting life, heaven and hell, etc. When you read the writings of Jefferson, Paine and Voltaire, for examples, you find theists but you search in vain to find God seeking a loving relationship with men. This is what we must remember above all about Deists. For them God is cold and distant, present but with his back turned to us. Though Deists place a high value on reason, this view is decidedly irrational.
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Why does a perfect Being need a relationship or our faith or love,etc ?

The Deist view is that the world doesn’t need fixing. It is what it is.
 
Roscoe

**Why does a perfect Being need a relationship or our faith or love,etc ? **

He doesn’t need it. He knows we need it to strive toward Him. And so He wills it.
**
The Deist view is that the world doesn’t need fixing. It is what it is.**

If you are talking about the physical world, that’s true. But if you are talking about the human world, that is not at all true. Deists from Voltaire to Jefferson recognized that the world needed fixing. They just didn’t believe that a personal friendship with God might help fix it. They believed rather in the power of Reason to fix everything. We know that’s not true. Reason fixes a lot of things, but it often fails to fix itself, and that’s why we need God to keep Reason in line.
 
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