Argument against the Trinity?

[NewsTheMan]

Ok,
Here goes,
I was thinking about the mystery of the Trinity last night, and this thought popped into my head - and in a way I want someone to debunk it to satisfy myself because it’s becoming slightly confusing for me

Ok. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all distinct and yet one God. But… that’s like saying, in a family for example, the Father, Son and Daughter are all distinct but are all Human and are thus one. Do you know what I’m getting it? Man, its puzzling to me! Hoping someone can sort it out

Thanks!

 

[JeffersonD]

I’m not going to go into specific scripture passages but Jesus taught us to pray to His Father which means Jesus is the Father’s Son. Jesus also said that after He is gone He will send forth His holy Spirit to guide the apostles and thus future apostles of the Church. That is a really basic answer to your question. It’s late so I don’t have time to go digging for Bible verses to help you out but I’m sure someone after will. The Trinity is one of those Mysteries which we shall never fully comprehend on earth. Pray and read your Bible, ask the Lord to open your heart to the Trinity. God bless

 

[kepha1]

In seeking to understand the traditional family, Christians should keep in mind that not only are individual persons created in the image of God, but so is the family itself. The human family is the closest analogy that mankind will ever come to concretely understanding the Blessed Trinity. (so you are very close)

The creeds teach that while there is one God, He exists in three distinct persons. The bible, on the other hand, reveals that man is made in the ‘image of God’. From these two truths, therefore, we can acknowledge that the complete image of God is found in the Triune understanding of Him.

This understanding of His Triune nature is reflected by the human family whose personal relationships approach the likeness of the Trinity. There are multiple demonstrations of this truth.

Consider the unity of the Trinity which is reflected in the unity of the family. Or the “family of persons” which is found in both. The persons of the Trinity share the 'same substance ’ while a human family becomes one flesh: wife with husband and parents with children.

There is also another element in the Trinity that lends itself to human likeness. The Nicene Creed professes this about the Trinity: “We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life who proceeds from the Father and the Son.”

In Catholic theology, the Holy Spirit is said to proceed from the will of both the Father and the Son, or in other words, through the activity which they engage in, otherwise known as “love”.

The Holy Spirit is poured forth through the exchange of love between the Father and the Son. This is why perhaps Jesus says to the Apostles: " Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." (John 16:7)

In the eternal economy of the Trinity, therefore, a person ‘proceeds’ from the love between two other persons. And so, the Holy Spirit is love ‘proceeding’ or ‘coming from’ the first two persons of the Blessed Trinity.

The human family has a rather striking parallel to this dynamic. The ultimate act of intimacy in a marriage mirrors the eternal exchange of love between the first two persons of the Trinity.

And like the eternal or continual procession of the Holy Spirit in the Trinity, the act of love between a man and a woman causes a ‘procession’ of another human person (i.e. the birth of a child).

Thus, it is precisely because the homosexual sex act is not ordered to the procession of another person, that it can never be a Trinitarian reflection of the divine essence.

Indeed, the sexual act itself, which is supposed to be a reflection of the Trinitarian relationship, becomes, through the homosexual act, a blasphemy against God since it ends up distorting the Trinitarian image of Him.

The human sexual act either affirms God’s image or it distorts it. This is why all forms of contraceptive sex, including the homosexual act, are serious sins: they seek to create God in another image. It is anti-Trinitarian.

http://catholic-legate.com/articles/antitrinity.html

 

[w_stewart]

Ok,
Here goes,
I was thinking about the mystery of the Trinity last night, and this thought popped into my head - and in a way I want someone to debunk it to satisfy myself because it’s becoming slightly confusing for me

Ok. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all distinct and yet one God. But… that’s like saying, in a family for example, the Father, Son and Daughter are all distinct but are all Human and are thus one. Do you know what I’m getting it? Man, its puzzling to me! Hoping someone can sort it out

Thanks!

The same thought also bothered me sometime. Can we say we have one HUMAN NATURE although we are DIFFERENT individuals/persons?

 

[NewsTheMan]

Thank you both! But I do understand the Trinity - in as much as one can understand it I mean - but my question still sticks. If that makes sense. You have both merely explained how it is taught to us. Kepha I suppose you have reminded me, and hence I am a little bit clearer. I still do not entirely see how it refutes my argument (if I can even call it that). In the husband wife and child analogy, they are not one human as the Father Son and Holy Spirit are indeed one God. To say they are one ‘flesh’ is to put a supernatural spin on it, which I understand entirely, but that can’t really work for the Lord, because the Lord is the Alpha and the Omega, there is no explanation beyond Him, no more supernatural than Him.

 

[kepha1]

The problem with analogies is they have limitations. The fact is, we are created in the image and likeness of God. Image and likeness, not duplicates or facsimilies. The human family is a better analogy that the water, ice, steam analogy, or St. Patricks’ 3 leaf clover anology.

 

[TheQuestioner]

First thing, pray not to understand so as to believe, but to believe so as to understand.

Second, John 20

24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it.” 26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Third, sounds like this sudden thought is kinda fishy. You sure the Devil might not be at work here? What makes me say that is because you are not asking for understanding of the Trinity, you are asking for us to **disprove **it, which no Catholic would, or could, do.

Fourth, you need to separate person from being, because in your head you seem to think they are the same thing.

Read through this part of the Summa. I’m sure it will help

ORIGIN: The question of origin or procession (27). The relations of origin relations of origin (28).
THE PERSONS IN GENERAL: The signification (29) of the word “person”. The number (30) of the persons, and what is involved in the number of persons, or is opposed thereto; as diversity, and similitude, and the like (31). Our knowledge (32) of the persons.
FATHER: The person of the Father (33).
SON: The person of the Son, to whom three names are attributed: 33)see, the idea of which is gathered from the idea of Father; Word (34) and Image (35).
HOLY GHOST: The person of the Holy Ghost, Who is called three things: Holy Ghost (36), Love (37) and Gift (38).
THE THREE COMPARED: The person in reference to the essence (39), with the relations or properties (40), or to the notional acts (41). The equality and likeness (42) of the persons. Their mission (43).

As a matter of fact I think I may read through some of it too.

 

[NewsTheMan]

First thing, pray not to understand so as to believe, but to believe so as to understand.

Third, sounds like this sudden thought is kinda fishy. You sure the Devil might not be at work here? What makes me say that is because you are not asking for understanding of the Trinity, you are asking for us to **disprove **it, which no Catholic would, or could, do.

Fourth, you need to separate person from being, because in your head you seem to think they are the same thing.

First - I do this all the time all my life in everything do

Second - I think you have misread my post. I want to disprove my own ‘argument against the trinity’.

Foruth - I do understand the distinction, although this might not be clear in my posts. Or at the very least, I am not seeing how it connects.

As for everything else, I wil have a look!

Thank you for those links, will read it tonight

 

[FCEGM]

Thank you both! But I do understand the Trinity - in as much as one can understand it I mean - but my question still sticks. If that makes sense. You have both merely explained how it is taught to us. Kepha I suppose you have reminded me, and hence I am a little bit clearer. I still do not entirely see how it refutes my argument (if I can even call it that). In the husband wife and child analogy, they are not one human as the Father Son and Holy Spirit are indeed one God. To say they are one ‘flesh’ is to put a supernatural spin on it, which I understand entirely, but that can’t really work for the Lord, because the Lord is the Alpha and the Omega, there is no explanation beyond Him, no more supernatural than Him.

If I’'m remembering correctly, Frank Sheed addresses this in his book Theology for Beginners, which is often recommended here. His chapters on the Trinity are extremely helpful.

 

[IHeartAquinas]

These things are not referred to as “mysteries” for no reason.

We cannot understand the will, nature, or being of God because we are simply ill-equipped. To do so would imply we have power over God, which would place us above Him.

As an analogy, the Russian word for bear, medved literally translates a “honey eater” because the bear was so sacred to them they refused to give it a proper name. Naming it would imply they had power over it, which would violate its sacredness.

I’m not going to try and intellectualize the Trinity. Many people have done this for me already and I only need to reference them if I am asked about it. But I rest assured that I do not have to intellectualize the Trinity because I believe in the Trinity. Because I believe it I understand it to be so.

As TheQuestioner said, pray not to understand so as to believe, but to believe so as to understand.

 

[WesleyF]

In the husband wife and child analogy, they are not one human as the Father Son and Holy Spirit are indeed one God.

They are not one human because they are finite beings with limitations. God is an infinite being. There are no limitations in God. So the three persons are one being. There’s nothing that limits them from being one being.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Ok,
Here goes,
I was thinking about the mystery of the Trinity last night, and this thought popped into my head - and in a way I want someone to debunk it to satisfy myself because it’s becoming slightly confusing for me

Ok. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all distinct and yet one God. But… that’s like saying, in a family for example, the Father, Son and Daughter are all distinct but are all Human and are thus one. Do you know what I’m getting it? Man, its puzzling to me! Hoping someone can sort it out

Thanks!

St Augustine, On the Trinity:
Yet we say three persons of the same essence, or three persons one essence; but we do not say three persons out of the same essence, as though therein essence were one thing, and person another, as we can say three statues out of the same gold; for there it is one thing to be gold, another to be statues. And when we say three men one nature, or three men of the same nature, they also can be called three men out of the same nature, since out of the same nature there can be also three other such men. But in that essence of the Trinity, in no way can any other person whatever exist out of the same essence. Further, in these things, one man is not as much as three men together; and two men are something more than one man: and in equal statues, three together amount to more of gold than each singly, and one amounts to less of gold than two. But in God it is not so; for the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit together is not a greater essence than the Father alone or the Son alone; but these three substances or persons, if they must be so called, together are equal to each singly: which the natural man does not comprehend. For he cannot think except under the conditions of bulk and space, either small or great, since phantasms or as it were images of bodies flit about in his mind.
This quote, to me, is at the heart of the Holy Mystery of the Trinity. The Divine Essence cannot be thought of or comprehended in terms of “bulk and space,” yet that’s how our human minds conceive things.