Argument From Extremes

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There is an argument against Traditionalists that goes something like this. Those are to be avoided who are dissenters, whether they be on the right or the left. On the right, so the argument goes, there may be those who are very holy and very eloquent but who are not in communion with the universal Church nor the Pope. Examples are given of certain groups in Church history, supposedly on the right, who simply did their own thing and did not ask permission of the Pope or superiors. They simply “knew better”. You often hear this argument against the SSPX. Their priests are “illicit” and thus, in some way, not “fully” united to the Church and are to be avoided.

Then you hear about those “dissenters” on the left. Those priests and Bishops who are ambivalent to or disregard Church teachings on faith and morality. For example, the priest/ president of Notre Dame who hosted President Obama as well as Fr. Richard McBrien (who thinks Jesus could have been married), etc. These people are not in communion with the universal Church or the Pope either and thus, are to be avoided as well.

The problem with this argument is that it is self-contradictory. It opposes the Traditionalist, Society priest because he has, in effect, had his faculties suspended and thus there is a legalistic argument that these priests are in some sort of “imperfect communion” with the universal Church. So ecclesiastical sanction is a brightline rule of whether a priest is unorthodox. Ok. Let’s see where this rule takes us.

As we know, the president of Notre Dame as well as Fr. McBrien, and all sorts of other liberal “dissenters” are not “illicit”. They have not been sanctioned, suspended, warned, censured, nor have they even in the least bit been discouraged by Church authority. This being the case, don’t we need to use our own private judgment to determine that these Catholics are “dissenters” and to exclude them from the universal Church? Indeed how can we exclude these leftists and liberals from communion, when the Church Herself has not in any way excluded them from communion? The Pope has not excluded them from communion nor has He disciplined them in any way. Thus our excluding them from communion is contradicting the Pope and the Church and is thus “dissent” in its own right.

The moral of the story is that indeed the liberals do separate themselves from the Church because they separate themselves from the faith, regardless of ecclesiastical sanction. So therefore, ecclesiastical sanction cannot be a sure guide for who is inside or outside of the Church or faith. In this manner those on the “right” Traditionalist priests, who are “illicit” for nothing more than wanting to practice and believe the Catholic faith as practiced and believed for 1960 + years prior to VCII, are indeed united, even if Rome currently says “imperfectly”, to the universal Church and the office of the Pope since they have the faith.

In the end, we can not have it both ways. If we want to use ecclesiastical sanction as a rule of orthodoxy we will find it is a double edged sword. For, if this is the case, the orthodox Catholic and the liberal are, in the eyes of Rome, of equal orthodoxy. And this is the tragic situation in which we find ourselves today. Truth and error allowed to co-exist inside the Body of Christ.
 
I’ve always been told “two wrongs don’t make a right”. Because one hasn’t been “corrected” or place through the process just means he hasn’t been caught yet. I think Pope Benedict is doing a lot of house cleaning lately and all the “rotten fruit” will be removed.
 
As a personal decision, I wouldn’t attend a mass said by a priest who I knew was illicitly ordained or by one who I knew dissented from or taught against Church teaching unless this was the only mass available to me. (Although the mass would be valid, I would be uncomfortable being there.) Where I live, it is always possible to do this. Perhaps in predominantly non-Catholic parts of the country this may not be the case. I agree dissent and rebellion exist both on the right and the left.
 
Nice post but you make an error.
There is an argument against Traditionalists that goes something like this. Those are to be avoided who are dissenters, whether they be on the right or the left. On the right, so the argument goes, there may be those who are very holy and very eloquent but who are not in communion with the universal Church nor the Pope. Examples are given of certain groups in Church history, supposedly on the right, who simply did their own thing and did not ask permission of the Pope or superiors. They simply “knew better”. You often hear this argument against the SSPX. Their priests are “illicit” and thus, in some way, not “fully” united to the Church and are to be avoided.
It is the Pope who makes this argument which he restates in his new Motu Proprio Ecclesia Unitatem.

Paragraph 4 reads (bold emphasis added)
  1. In the same spirit and with the same commitment to encouraging the resolution of all fractures and divisions in the Church and to healing a wound in the ecclesial fabric that was more and more painfully felt, I wished to remit the excommunication of the four Bishops illicitly ordained by Archbishop Lefebvre. With this decision I intended to remove an impediment that might have jeopardized the opening of a door to dialogue and thereby to invite the Bishops and the “Society of St Pius X” to rediscover the path to full communion with the Church. As I explained in my Letter to the Catholic Bishops of last 10 March, the remission of the excommunication was a measure taken in the context of ecclesiastical discipline to free the individuals from the burden of conscience constituted by the most serious of ecclesiastical penalties. However, the doctrinal questions obviously remain and until they are clarified the Society has no canonical status in the Church and its ministers cannot legitimately exercise any ministry.
 
Yes, I’m aware of that. Which is why I state later on that the Church authorities consider them in “imperfect communion”.

The point still remains that liceity has no definitive correspondence with orthodoxy.
 
Yes, I’m aware of that. Which is why I state later on that the Church authorities consider them in “imperfect communion”.
Hmmm, I think this statement is a bit stronger than “imperfect communion”.

**However, the doctrinal questions obviously remain and until they are clarified the Society has no canonical status in the Church and its ministers cannot legitimately exercise any ministry. **
The point still remains that liceity has no definitive correspondence with orthodoxy.
Depends on who is defining who is orthodox and who isn’t. I do not believe that it is the place of the laity to do such a thing.

It is the Church’s job to judge who is in communion and who is not.

There is much within the Church that we can disagree on, we must only hold to the dogmas of the Church to be Catholic.
 
You then prove my point. Under this logic Fr. McBrien is orthodox and in full communion. You have no right to say he is not or else you are setting your judgment above that of the Church.
 
You then prove my point. Under this logic Fr. McBrien is orthodox and in full communion. You have no right to say he is not or else you are setting your judgment above that of the Church.
The question the Church addressed was never whether or not the person of Fr. McBrien was orthodox – it was whether or not his writings were orthodox. While his original Encyclopedia was questionable, there have been several rewrites of those sections to which the Church objected and, at present, it is found to be withing the scope of what it considered orthodox. We must always be careful to avoid casting aspersions on a person when, in fact, the issue is the work of that person.

Deacon Ed
 
Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz of Lincoln, Nebraska took care to address both ends of the spectrum in his group excommunications. This is why both SSPX members and Call To Action members are excommunicated in his diocese (see here).
 
Deacon Ed,

McBrien is simply one example among many. Nevertheless he has publicly stated that Our Lord Jesus Christ could very well have been married. I know of no sanction on Fr. McBrien for this statement and he is a member in good standing of the Catholic Church. In like manner so is Cardinal Mahoney and Archbishop Weakland. Any criticism of these figures or any other liberal Bishop or priest is uncalled for according to this logic since they are in full communion and in good standing. Therefore their beliefs are just as legitimate as our own as just as “Catholic”. The same goes for liturgical dance and puppet masses being of the same orthodoxy and merit as Traditional Masses. We have no right to judge. Both are Catholic and approved and therefore perfectly orthodox.
 
Deacon Ed,

McBrien is simply one example among many. Nevertheless he has publicly stated that Our Lord Jesus Christ could very well have been married. I know of no sanction on Fr. McBrien for this statement and he is a member in good standing of the Catholic Church.
And there is no dogmatic teaching that Jesus was not married. Rather, Tradition holds that he was not married. Historically there is no evidence one way or the other., Thus he is free to speculate on this.
In like manner so is Cardinal Mahoney and Archbishop Weakland. Any criticism of these figures or any other liberal Bishop or priest is uncalled for according to this logic since they are in full communion and in good standing.
Again, one can certainly take issue with some of the statements that these bishops have made. Whether or not they, as persons, are orthodox is a question that only the Church is qualified to judge. When Abp. Weakland teaches that homosexuality is on a par with heterosexuality he is clearly outside the realm of Catholic teaching. Thus, a Catholic is not only free to reject such teaching, he is obligated to reject it!
Therefore their beliefs are just as legitimate as our own as just as “Catholic”.
That’s not what I said. Clearly the issue of primacy of conscience is at play here. If the well-formed conscience of an individual leads him or her to believe something that is at odds with the teaching of the Catholic Church suvh a person is, of necessity, forced to address the conflict and if that conflict cannot resolve it in a way that harmonizes with the Church’s teaching he or she must, to be logically consistent, leave the Church. One cannot, it seems to me, remain in the Church while simultaneously denying the teaching of the Church.
The same goes for liturgical dance and puppet masses being of the same orthodoxy and merit as Traditional Masses. We have no right to judge. Both are Catholic and approved and therefore perfectly orthodox.
Hmmm…you seem to have stretched the point substantially. Perhaps you can show me how this is a logical extension of the principles that I’ve explicated.

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon Ed,

A Deacon in the Catholic Church saying it is acceptable to believe Our Lord Jesus Christ was married, says about all that needs to be said about the current crisis in the Church. This is truly incredible. It goes to a fundamental lack of understanding regarding the ordinary infallible Magisterium. Not surprising as this basic misunderstanding is one of the keys to the crisis.

Then in your next sentence your argument contradicts itself. You then state that we are obligated to reject Bishop Weakland’s statements on homosexuality when the Church Herself has not sanctioned Weakland for them or censured the statements. You state that these assertions go against Church teaching, but what de fide dogma do they violate? And even if you find one you think it violates, you must not use private judgment to determine this but let the Church decides if it violates dogma. As of yet the Church has not said it does. Thus you cannot say that Weakland’s opinions are not Catholic lest you dissent from the Church.

You then make an assertion that those who don’t follow Church teaching should leave the Church. Fair enough, but irrelevant, because they don’t. Of course your argument does not allow you to say that these people don’t believe in Church teaching because the Church Herself considers them in good standing and full communion.

I then posed a logical extension of this argument to the liturgy. If Rome accepts and approves different forms of liturgy, this argument dictates that no private judgment can be made regarding the relative merits of one liturgy versus the other. Thus, to be consistent, those who hold to this argument would not be allowed to state that a Traditional Mass is in any way superior to an approved rock mass.
 
Deacon Ed,

A Deacon in the Catholic Church saying it is acceptable to believe Our Lord Jesus Christ was married, says about all that needs to be said about the current crisis in the Church. This is truly incredible. It goes to a fundamental lack of understanding regarding the ordinary infallible Magisterium. Not surprising as this basic misunderstanding is one of the keys to the crisis.

Then in your next sentence your argument contradicts itself. You then state that we are obligated to reject Bishop Weakland’s statements on homosexuality when the Church Herself has not sanctioned Weakland for them or censured the statements. You state that these assertions go against Church teaching, but what de fide dogma do they violate? And even if you find one you think it violates, you must not use private judgment to determine this but let the Church decides if it violates dogma. As of yet the Church has not said it does. Thus you cannot say that Weakland’s opinions are not Catholic lest you dissent from the Church.
The difference is that the teaching with regard to homosexuality is well defined and dogmatic, the teaching with regard to Jesus and his marital status depends on Tradition and is not dogmatic.The role of the theologian is to push our understanding of the revelation of God. Not all things theologians write are correct, not all things theolgians write are consistent with Tradition. Yet, unless the Church says that a given position may not be held, the well-formed conscience of the individual has the right to hold it.
You then make an assertion that those who don’t follow Church teaching should leave the Church. Fair enough, but irrelevant, because they don’t. Of course your argument does not allow you to say that these people don’t believe in Church teaching because the Church Herself considers them in good standing and full communion.
Yes, to be logically consistent they should leave the Church. People are notoriously illogical and frequently hold contradictory positions.
I then posed a logical extension of this argument to the liturgy. If Rome accepts and approves different forms of liturgy, this argument dictates that no private judgment can be made regarding the relative merits of one liturgy versus the other. Thus, to be consistent, those who hold to this argument would not be allowed to state that a Traditional Mass is in any way superior to an approved rock mass.
Except that Rome has specifically stated what can and cannot be considered acceptable in the liturgical expression of the Church. As long as one conforms to what Rome has said the liturgy should be acceptable. As the saying goes, “say the black, do the red.”

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon Ed,

Your words are crystal clear. In your opinion a Catholic in good standing can hold that Our Lord was married. As I said before, this amazing error coming from a Deacon, and possibly a self-described “Traditional” one at that, in and of itself proves the crisis. I won’t waste any more time on it.

As for Weakland’s comments, please demonstrate how they contradict any de fide statements of the Church, understanding that, until the Church acts on Weakland and/or his statements your opinion is solely your own and not binding on any other Catholic (according to your own argument).

You state that as long as one conforms to what Rome has said the liturgy should be acceptable. You prove my point. You are bound by your argument to then believe that rock masses, liturgical dance, girl altar boys, folk masses, etc. are acceptable because they have all been approved and just as acceptable as the TLM.

I thank you for demonstrating my point real time during this discussion. This line of argument from extremes is extremely dangerous and ultimately leads to the destruction of faith and the damning of souls.
 
Deacon Ed,

Your words are crystal clear. In your opinion a Catholic in good standing can hold that Our Lord was married. As I said before, this amazing error coming from a Deacon, and possibly a self-described “Traditional” one at that, in and of itself proves the crisis. I won’t waste any more time on it.
I never said I was a “traditional” anything. I happen to be a Catholic deacon who has lived in both the period before and after the Second Vatican Council. I learned to serve Mass in Latin. I currently serve as a bi-ritual deacon with faculties both in the Latin Rite and the Byzantine Rite (Melkite Church).
As for Weakland’s comments, please demonstrate how they contradict any de fide statements of the Church, understanding that, until the Church acts on Weakland and/or his statements your opinion is solely your own and not binding on any other Catholic (according to your own argument).
In the Catechism of the Catholic Church you will find the Church has stated that homosexuality is “intrinsically disordered.” This is in clear opposition to what Abp. Weakland has said. One of them must be wrong. I choose to believe that the Church is right.
You state that as long as one conforms to what Rome has said the liturgy should be acceptable. You prove my point. You are bound by your argument to then believe that rock masses, liturgical dance, girl altar boys, folk masses, etc. are acceptable because they have all been approved and just as acceptable as the TLM.
Apparently you are unaware of the fact that Rome has said there is no role in the Mass for dance (at least, not in the Western Hemisphere). Further, I’m not sure what you mean by “rock masses” since there is no such thing in the Latin Rite. If you are referring to a Mass at which “rock music” (whatever that may be) is played, the Church has issued guidelines with regard to music in Mass. As long as the music conforms to those guidelines they are acceptable.
I thank you for demonstrating my point real time during this discussion. This line of argument from extremes is extremely dangerous and ultimately leads to the destruction of faith and the damning of souls.
Hmmm… I fully agree that argument from extremes is dangerous. That was never what I was discussing – but then I suspect you knew that.

Deacon Ed
 
Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz of Lincoln, Nebraska took care to address both ends of the spectrum in his group excommunications. This is why both SSPX members and Call To Action members are excommunicated in his diocese (see here).
Maybe it’s just me, but I’m having a hard time seeing how SSPX can possibly be compared to Planned Parenthood, the Masons, and Catholics for a Free Choice.

Edit: I’m also rather concerned that a Deacon of the Church believes that one can hold to Jesus being married and be a Catholic in good standing.
 
Maybe it’s just me, but I’m having a hard time seeing how SSPX can possibly be compared to Planned Parenthood, the Masons, and Catholics for a Free Choice.

Edit: I’m also rather concerned that a Deacon of the Church believes that one can hold to Jesus being married and be a Catholic in good standing.
There is much that we can disagree on within the Catholic Church. We are only bound to the Dogmas of the Catholic Church. Jesus’ marital status is not dogmatic. There is no dogmatic statement from the Church stating whether Jesus was married or not.

Just as we are free to believe that the Blessed Mother passed away before she was assumed into Heaven.
 
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