Argument with a priest / heresy / kneeling for Communion

[aimee]

Or perhaps they are scared of offending God?
Or perhaps their conscience demands it?
Or perhaps they wish to emulate the Saints?
Or perhaps their greatest sign of outward love for the Eucharist and they must go down to their knees?
Or perhaps that is the way they were raised?

Are people who were suits to mass trying to act holier than everyone? Or maybe the women who wear veils? Or those people who have to show off by staying after mass to pray the rosary?

I would say that if they worship on their knees (IE behind close doors) when they say their prayers then it is in their heart their love of god manifests itself in humility when they are low to the ground.

Where we belong in the presence of God.

Well stated :yup:

 

[TMC]

Or perhaps they are scared of offending God?
Or perhaps their conscience demands it?
Or perhaps they wish to emulate the Saints?
Or perhaps their greatest sign of outward love for the Eucharist and they must go down to their knees?
Or perhaps that is the way they were raised?

Are people who were suits to mass trying to act holier than everyone? Or maybe the women who wear veils? Or those people who have to show off by staying after mass to pray the rosary?

I would say that if they worship on their knees (IE behind close doors) when they say their prayers then it is in their heart their love of god manifests itself in humility when they are low to the ground.

Where we belong in the presence of God.

Perhaps, and perhaps not.

Perhaps we should follow and obey the heirs to the Apostles. Perhaps that is the part of their Catholic upbringing some have forgotten.

 

[Cat]

The main reason I became a Catholic was because I accepted the authority of the Holy Mother Church, the Church that Jesus Christ Himself accepted.

This thread and many others on CAF have convinced me that the Church would do well to ban the reading by the laypeople of the various rubrics guides, including the GIRM. (When did it become OK for the laypeople to read these guides, anyway? During the Reformation, by any chance?)

I know this won’t happen.

But it seems that when the faithful read the GIRM and the other documents, each individual arrives at their own conclusion, JUST LIKE WE USED TO DO WITH THE BIBLE WHEN I WAS PROTESTANT. And you are all convinced that you (and your friends) are correct and that everyone else is incorrect.

It’s like a puzzle or a game with some of you–“Top That Interp.” You scour the rubrics documents and the other church documents, and of course you find passages that support your own beliefs. And then someone else (another lay person like yourself) scans the SAME documents and discovers other passages that support THEIR beliefs. And so it goes, back and forth, each one of you convinced that the other is spreading heresy.

I don’t believe it is standing during Communion that has depleted the strength of the Church. I believe it is failure to obey the shepherds that the Lord has appointed. There is conflict, and disobedience, and lack of unity and lack of charity, just like in the Protestant fellowships, and the Church does not grow or thrive.

I hereby refuse to read these various church rubrics documents by myself without the guidance of the ordained Catholic clergy, ever again.

I will inevitably arrive at the WRONG conclusion and then be dissatisfied and contentious towards my appointed shepherds. I will allow my BISHOP and my PRIESTS, who have been well-educated and ordained by the Lord, to read and apply the rubrics, and I will accept their interpretations. If they offer a class or study in church rubrics, I will attend if I can so that I can sit at their feet and learn. I will not sit at my own feet and assume that I am learning.

IF I judge a priest to be teaching heresy, I certainly won’t judge on the basis of his interpretation of rubrics, but rather, I will judge based on his obedience to the commandments of the Lord, particularly the Ten Commandments, the Beatitudes, the Corporal Works of Mercy and the Spiritual Works of Mercy. And even then, I will be very slow to pronounce someone guilty of heresy, as I have no authority to make that judgement.

I don’t understand why some of you don’t become priests or at least become liturgical directors, and then YOU would be free to enforce the rubrics AND you would have the God-given authority to do so. I realize that many of you are married or women, and so the priesthood is out of the question. But couldn’t you take the training at a seminary or through your diocese to become liturgical ministers/directors (whatever you call it where you live)?

 

[Layman]

Vat. II open the doors wide for personal interpretations of how the Mass should be done. It ushered in huge and damaging changes.

You can’t have it both ways. Obedience (except to what Paul VI actually wanted) and Change (except changing back to tradition).

Not going to work.

[Whispers:] Dear reader, want a consistent, pious, reverent Mass which promotes sanctity in you? Go to, support and promote the TLM!

 

[Shin]

Obedience to heretics and to the disobedient to the Faith is not a virtue, it is a vice.

There are limits to authority for a reason, and you cannot absolve your own authority and responsibility.

I don’t know what is hard to understand about that. Mindless obedience does not absolve a person of culpability, not a parishoner in the Church, not a soldier in a war, but I am redundant.

The truths of the Faith in regards to dogma, doctrine, and discipline are not so esoteric and hard to understand as have been represented.

It does not take a genius to connect the dots regarding those who restrict devotional practices and preach heresy and the source of their motivations and who one is truly obeying when one obeys these. Yes -who-.

We live in a time where there are many priests and prelates who are apostate and unfaithful, overtly and covertly. If you do not educate yourself with the gifts and graces God has given you to do so, if you do not study the faith, He will reward you the same way he rewarded the man who buried his talents in the earth.

A just reward – a punishment. You have to work at it, you can’t coast in mindless obedience, you have to obey properly – as someone who speaks to his superior and helps him when he fails, or takes note of his superior’s defection and alerts his superior’s superior. That is what those who are above you in the hierarchy, if they are good people with honest mistakes would truly want you to do – if they are not, and wish to cover it up and have mindless drones sent off to destruction – do not volunteer to become one.

 

[BSHoop96]

This thread and many others on CAF have convinced me that the Church would do well to ban the reading by the laypeople of the various rubrics guides, including the GIRM. (When did it become OK for the laypeople to read these guides, anyway? During the Reformation, by any chance?)

My gosh…you may be on to something!

For anyone starting at this post…we’re kidding.

 

[nmoerbeek]

Perhaps, and perhaps not.

Perhaps we should follow and obey the heirs to the Apostles. Perhaps that is the part of their Catholic upbringing some have forgotten.

I agree that people have forgotten a lot about the faith these days. Including the reverence the Eucharist deserves (the body and blood of Christ). We should all listen to our shepherds, even priests bishops, cardinals have them. That is why I encourage the poster to write to the Bishop followed up by Rome to make sure that his conscience is well formed to the will of the heirs of the apostles.

 

[puzzleannie]

You just ignored the heresy, and you also told a person to obey a person who is disobediently making orders beyond his authority.

You have totally misstated the virtue of obedience in a harmful way.

no i did not ignore heresy but I will ignore your personal attack. who is the person making orders beyond his authority? has this bishop set the norms for this diocese and is the priest following them? please show me the clear statement from the current pope on this topic backing up your claim. If your name does not begin with B and end with 16 you are not competent to label anyone a heretic. if you don’t like the way Mass is celebrated in this parish, find a traditional parish, and go there. Do not use the Mass as a public forum for your protest.

 

[nmoerbeek]

If your name does not begin with B and end with 16 you are not competent to label anyone a heretic.

Canon 212

§3. According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons.

If a person believes a person is in heresy then he should correct them out of love. I don’t think the pope is going to be able to review everyone catechism homework every night.

 

[nmoerbeek]

puzzleannie;51460**32:

no i did not ignore heresy but I will ignore your personal attack. who is the person making orders beyond his authority?

Trust this guy?

Conferences of Bishops by the Institution Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.

In fact, as His Eminence, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has recently emphasized, the practice of kneeling for Holy Communion has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species.

 

[TRUTH1960]

You need to listen to your priest, he is correct on all these issues.
On the last issue, the church ha equal imphasis on the Word of God and the Eucharist, and we are to recieve both at the mass.

Peace,
FAB

You are very wrong about that one, since the Pope is the Head of the Church and the Pope allows for Kneeling to receive the Holy Eucharist, which is a great sign of reverence to Our Dear Lord Jesus. The Priest needs to be in obedience to the pope and the canons of the church. Kneeling was never to be removed after the vatican ii council. It gor removed along the way and the years!!!

 

[TRUTH1960]

As regards kneeling or standing for Communion, it might be well to follow whatever the local custom is.

As St. Ambrose said to St. Augustine, “When in Rome, do as the Romans do.”

Kneeling during the consecration at Mass is the most appropriate way to express the fact that in the Eucharist one meets Jesus, who was bowed down by the weight of human sin, said an article by a Vatican official.

Standing is symbolic not of community but rather of an equal. We are not equal to God. So, we kneel before Him - as a sign of penitence that we are sinners and need His Sacrifice to make us whole. The community is not the ultimate end but rather, Christ, is the ultimate end. The community’s goal is Christ, who is sacrificed at each Mass in the world.

 

[TRUTH1960]

this statement explains a great deal.

Unfortunately, many people within the church are ignorant of the teachings of vatican ii. The issue of collegiality is one of the most misinterpreted and misunderstood issues arising from vatican ii.

the problems you are having with your priest arise from his faulty interpretations of lumen gentium.

here is a quote from chapter 3 from the dogmatic constitution on the church (bold is mine):

but the college or body of bishops has no authority unless it is understood together with the roman pontiff, the successor of peter as its head. *the pope’s power of primacy over all, both pastors and faithful, remains whole and intact. in virtue of his office, that is as vicar of christ and pastor of the whole church, the roman pontiff has full, supreme and universal power over the church. And he is always free to exercise this power. the order of bishops, which succeeds to the college of apostles and gives this apostolic body continued existence, is also the subject of supreme and full power over the universal church, provided we understand this body together with its head the roman pontiff and never without this head.(27) this power can be exercised only with the consent of the roman pontiff. for our lord placed simon alone as the rock and the bearer of the keys of the church,(156) and made him shepherd of the whole flock;(157) it is evident, however, that the power of binding and loosing, which was given to peter,(158) was granted also to the college of apostles, joined with their head.(159)(28) this college, insofar as it is composed of many, expresses the variety and universality of the people of god, but insofar as it is assembled under one head, it expresses the unity of the flock of christ. in it, the bishops, faithfully recognizing the primacy and pre-eminence of their head, exercise their own authority for the good of their own faithful, and indeed of the whole church, the holy spirit supporting its organic structure and harmony with moderation. The supreme power in the universal church, which this college enjoys, is exercised in a solemn way in an ecumenical council. a council is never ecumenical unless it is confirmed or at least accepted as such by the successor of peter; and it is prerogative of the roman pontiff to convoke these councils, to preside over them and to confirm them.(29) this same collegiate power can be exercised together with the pope by the bishops living in all parts of the world, provided that the head of the college calls them to collegiate action, or at least approves of or freely accepts the united action of the scattered bishops, so that it is thereby made a collegiate act.

i have highlighted certain sections in this paragraph to show that the pope has “full, supreme and universal power over the church.” although bishops have authority over their own individual flocks, “this power can be exercised only with the consent of the roman pontiff.” the pope has primacy and pre-eminence over all the other bishops, and every bishop faithfully recognizes and accepts this primacy. The authority of the bishops can never be exercised without the consent of the holy father, pope benedict xvi.

The bishops all have legitimate authority over their particular flocks, and this must never be forgotten. At the same time, we must all recognize that the pope has supreme power over all the bishops. the authority of each bishop can only be exercised with the consent of benedict xvi.

now that you have read what vatican ii says, do you think that this priest is correct? This priest is clearly incorrect. The pope does have “supreme authority over the other bishops,” and the above quote from lumen gentium unquestionably proves this.

if vatican ii is misunderstood, why is it all altars were changed, emc were allowed to serve the holy eucharist, the host is not elevated as before,kneeling to receive our divine savior, the king of kings at whose name every knee shall bend etc etc???

 

[I_Believe]

Canon 212

§3. According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons.

If a person believes a person is in heresy then he should correct them out of love. I don’t think the pope is going to be able to review everyone catechism homework every night.

I was wondering what St Felix III was talking about

“Not to oppose error is to approve it, and not to defend truth is to suppress it, and indeed to neglect to confound evil men, when we can do it, is no less a sin than to encourage them.”

• Pope St. Felix III

 

[LilyM]

if vatican ii is misunderstood, why is it all altars were changed, emc were allowed to serve the holy eucharist, the host is not elevated as before,kneeling to receive our divine savior, the king of kings at whose name every knee shall bend etc etc???

NOT all altars were changed, NOT every parish has EMHCs serving the Eucharist (my local one usually doesn’t). I don’t know what you’re talking about with the elevation - every priest I’ve ever seen celebrate the Mass certainly elevates the Host and Chalice, and one local parish even sometimes has the Church bell toll at the Consecration - if that isn’t respect for Our Eucharistic Lord I don’t know what is!

 

[TRUTH1960]

THE ANSWER FOR THAT IS to MAKE THE LINK:

1. Secret of Fatima to be revealed in 1960 as requested by Our Most Blessed Mother Mary
2. The signs and sybols on the one dollar bill related to the freemasons and like

NOVOS ORDO SECLORUM’ = New nonreligious Order on the dollar bill

NOVOS ORDO MASS

see the link!!!

1. The Freemasons and John xxiii who was elected in 1958
2. Sister Lucy’s last interview had a last interview by Father Fuentes in 1957
3. Then sister Lucy was not to receive contact with anyone.
4. 1960 spiritual director of sister Lucy for 20 yrs forbidden to see her anymore, during his return to Portugal
5. Different sister Lucy pictures pops up in the 80’s. If you need proof just look at the dentist’s and doctor’s comments and pictures related:
   traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/g11htTwoSisterLucys_Horvat.htm
6. Death of John xxiii in in 1963
7. Vatcan council ii was done during 1962-1965
8. One of the most important moto of Vatican ii: Eucenimism in contradiction to scriptures itself

2 St. John Verse 9-10 : 9 Anyone who advances and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ has not God; he who abides in the doctrine, he has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house, or say to him, Welcome"

1. Need proof about John xiii, take a look at the pictures:

mostholyfamilymonastery.com/John23.html

1. How about the big ecunumical event at Assissi that would sti Saint Francis up!:

John Paul ii which vatican ii is about to canonized can be seen in these pictures:
mostholyfamilymonastery.com/new_JP2_photos.php

1. And also don’t forget the big scandal of the vatican bank linked to the Freemasons in 1982

.After the Vatican Bank scandal erupted in the early 1980’s, French and Italian news publications listed the names of more than 150 high ranking bishops, archbishops and cardinals who were active members of Freemasonry, including the P2 Masonic Lodge and other dark and sinister secret societies.

“did the enemy sow the weed , while the master was sleeping?”

Vatican ii offers total different principles from the True Catholic Church we had for centuries.

If you look at the important years here the 1960’ etc, you will see the link and understand why Our Blessed Mother asked for the secret to be revealed in 1960.

1. also did you know that John xiii did not refused to reveal the secret as required by Our Blessed Mother in 1960. Why is that??? What was the secret about that the Freemasons helped by John xxiii had to bury it??? Why was the True sister Lucy put away.

If you need proof, you are welcome to email me and can give you more evidence…This is not a joke, this is the truth!!!

WE ARE NOT TRADDITIONALIST BUT TRUE CATHOLICS THAT BELIEVE IN THE TRUE CHURCH, NOT THE VATICAN II CHURCH… WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MAJOR DIFFERENCE HERE!!!

" Let those who have ears hear and those who have eyes see"

 

[Dtmccameron]

Obedience to heretics and to the disobedient to the Faith is not a virtue, it is a vice.

Yes, I was thinking a bit too much was being laid upon obedience. Oh, and I know it has to do with me being an American, and even, a Texan (twice the rebellion) but this world breeds a certain cynicism in people, in such that they’re unwilling to put complete and total confidence in anyone, really.

And I think, in this case, the OP was rightfully skeptical. That bit with the Pope was clearly wrong. Though I’m not sure it’s heresy. He may not be willfully, or mindfully for that matter, be taking a position against that of the Church.

And then, how many of those molesting priests ordered perversions from their victims in the name of penance?

It’s very sad that we don’t trust our clergy, but it’s even more sad that we can’t.

And I think, for all the considerable downsides to it, having every Catholic be on the watch for heresy and doctrinal error ( Whilst perhaps breeding some legalism similar to what the Pharisees had developed) might ward off cafeteria Catholics and other unseemly sorts. But then again, it was precisely for that purpose, though with Jews, that the Pharisees were so… uptight. They we’re fighting Greek and Roman influences, us? Secular and Satanic.

…I say, the “before and after” analogy of that last sentence worked rather well, don’ you think?

 

[LilyM]

THE ANSWER FOR THAT IS to MAKE THE LINK:

1. Secret of Fatima to be revealed in 1960 as requested by Our Most Blessed Mother Mary
2. The signs and sybols on the one dollar bill related to the freemasons and like

NOVOS ORDO SECLORUM’ = New nonreligious Order on the dollar bill

NOVOS ORDO MASS

see the link!!!

1. The Freemasons and John xxiii who was elected in 1958
2. Sister Lucy’s last interview had a last interview by Father Fuentes in 1957
3. Then sister Lucy was not to receive contact with anyone.
4. 1960 spiritual director of sister Lucy for 20 yrs forbidden to see her anymore, during his return to Portugal
5. Different sister Lucy pictures pops up in the 80’s. If you need proof just look at the dentist’s and doctor’s comments and pictures related:
   traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/g11htTwoSisterLucys_Horvat.htm
6. Death of John xxiii in in 1963
7. Vatcan council ii was done during 1962-1965
8. One of the most important moto of Vatican ii: Eucenimism in contradiction to scriptures itself

2 St. John Verse 9-10 : 9 Anyone who advances and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ has not God; he who abides in the doctrine, he has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house, or say to him, Welcome"

1. Need proof about John xiii, take a look at the pictures:

mostholyfamilymonastery.com/John23.html

1. How about the big ecunumical event at Assissi that would sti Saint Francis up!:

John Paul ii which vatican ii is about to canonized can be seen in these pictures:
mostholyfamilymonastery.com/new_JP2_photos.php

1. And also don’t forget the big scandal of the vatican bank linked to the Freemasons in 1982

.After the Vatican Bank scandal erupted in the early 1980’s, French and Italian news publications listed the names of more than 150 high ranking bishops, archbishops and cardinals who were active members of Freemasonry, including the P2 Masonic Lodge and other dark and sinister secret societies.

“did the enemy sow the weed , while the master was sleeping?”

Vatican ii offers total different principles from the True Catholic Church we had for centuries.

If you look at the important years here the 1960’ etc, you will see the link and understand why Our Blessed Mother asked for the secret to be revealed in 1960.

1. also did you know that John xiii did not refused to reveal the secret as required by Our Blessed Mother in 1960. Why is that??? What was the secret about that the Freemasons helped by John xxiii had to bury it??? Why was the True sister Lucy put away.

If you need proof, you are welcome to email me and can give you more evidence…This is not a joke, this is the truth!!!

WE ARE NOT TRADDITIONALIST BUT TRUE CATHOLICS THAT BELIEVE IN THE TRUE CHURCH, NOT THE VATICAN II CHURCH… WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MAJOR DIFFERENCE HERE!!!

" Let those who have ears hear and those who have eyes see"

You’ve already started another thread with a post saying exactly the same thing - no need to repeat yourself mate.

 

[AlanF]

The main reason I became a Catholic was because I accepted the authority of the Holy Mother Church, the Church that Jesus Christ Himself accepted.

This thread and many others on CAF have convinced me that the Church would do well to ban the reading by the laypeople of the various rubrics guides, including the GIRM. (When did it become OK for the laypeople to read these guides, anyway? During the Reformation, by any chance?)

I know this won’t happen.

But it seems that when the faithful read the GIRM and the other documents, each individual arrives at their own conclusion, JUST LIKE WE USED TO DO WITH THE BIBLE WHEN I WAS PROTESTANT. And you are all convinced that you (and your friends) are correct and that everyone else is incorrect.

It’s like a puzzle or a game with some of you–“Top That Interp.” You scour the rubrics documents and the other church documents, and of course you find passages that support your own beliefs. And then someone else (another lay person like yourself) scans the SAME documents and discovers other passages that support THEIR beliefs. And so it goes, back and forth, each one of you convinced that the other is spreading heresy.

I don’t believe it is standing during Communion that has depleted the strength of the Church. I believe it is failure to obey the shepherds that the Lord has appointed. There is conflict, and disobedience, and lack of unity and lack of charity, just like in the Protestant fellowships, and the Church does not grow or thrive.

I hereby refuse to read these various church rubrics documents by myself without the guidance of the ordained Catholic clergy, ever again.

I will inevitably arrive at the WRONG conclusion and then be dissatisfied and contentious towards my appointed shepherds. I will allow my BISHOP and my PRIESTS, who have been well-educated and ordained by the Lord, to read and apply the rubrics, and I will accept their interpretations. If they offer a class or study in church rubrics, I will attend if I can so that I can sit at their feet and learn. I will not sit at my own feet and assume that I am learning.

IF I judge a priest to be teaching heresy, I certainly won’t judge on the basis of his interpretation of rubrics, but rather, I will judge based on his obedience to the commandments of the Lord, particularly the Ten Commandments, the Beatitudes, the Corporal Works of Mercy and the Spiritual Works of Mercy. And even then, I will be very slow to pronounce someone guilty of heresy, as I have no authority to make that judgement.

I don’t understand why some of you don’t become priests or at least become liturgical directors, and then YOU would be free to enforce the rubrics AND you would have the God-given authority to do so. I realize that many of you are married or women, and so the priesthood is out of the question. But couldn’t you take the training at a seminary or through your diocese to become liturgical ministers/directors (whatever you call it where you live)?

Perhaps a study of recent history, notably the last 40 years, is in order…
Most priests and bishops and even cardinals seem to be at least dissenters, the liturgy is in disarray, catholic teaching which results in >90% of catholic school leavers apostising, traditional Mass, devotions, practices and beliefs suppresses and scorned. In short, the Church is in CRISIS comparable to Arian crisis of the 4th century. Should people have followed the arian bishops then instead of “find[ing] passages that support [their] own beliefs” in the Council of Nicæa?

But maybe I should listen to my bishop… He recently reduced the Traditional Mass to an indult for nostaglic old folks, he advised against frequent Confession, he said Church teaching on the evils of contraception could be wrong and said we can’t teach the youth about salvation! All in the same interview!! Here’s the interview.
Yes, great spiritual leadership!

Last week the Archbishop of Freiburg said that Christ did not die for our sins but to be in “solidarity” with the poor!

Like in the times of Arianism, one cannot trust the bishops or priests to teach or even practice the Faith. The only thing we can trust to come forth is novelty and scandal.

 

[malphono]

…
But maybe I should listen to my bishop… He recently reduced the Traditional Mass to an indult for nostaglic old folks, he advised against frequent Confession, he said Church teaching on the evils of contraception could be wrong and said we can’t teach the youth about salvation! All in the same interview!! Here’s the interview.
Yes, great spiritual leadership!

Oh my, that was quite an interview. How far away is Lancaster? Might be a tad more welcoming.