Arguments against the deity of Christ

[John_Pascendi]

Hey, i was wondering what are the answers to these arguments against the deity of Christ. These arguments seek to show that Christ is not God because he demonstrated ungodly attributes like ignorance and such.

1. In Mark 4:31 Jesus says “It is like a mustard seed planted in the ground. It is the smallest of all seeds” **However modern science has shown that the mustard seed is not the smallest seed in the world.
   **
2. Mark 10:18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good–except God alone.”
3. Mark 15:34 (Matthew 27:46) And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”—which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” **Why would Jesus ask his God why he has forsaken him if he didn’t really forsake him. If Jesus was really omniscient then he wouldn’t have asked this because it implies ignorance.
   **
   4.John 14:28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.”
   **Here Jesus clearly states that the Father is greater than him, therefore he cannot be God.
   **
   5.Mark 13:32 (Matthew 24:36) “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” Here Jesus clearly displays ignorance.

6.Matthew 4:1-11 The gospels say that Jesus was tempted. But how can God be tempted? While It is true that Jesus did not give in to the temptation it is nonetheless impossible for God to be tempted because he does not have the potential of actualizing the temptation into sin.

7.Luke 2:52 Luke 2:40 “And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.” How can God evolve in wisdom? Doesn’t that imply that he lacked wisdom beforehand, thus rendering Jesus imperfect. Also how can he grow in favor with God if he already has the full favor of the Father and the Holy Spirit.

1. Matthew 21:18 "Early in the morning, as he was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered. When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.” **All Though it is not explicitly stated, doesn’t this passage imply that Jesus was looking for food, approached the fig tree because he thought it bore fruit, found no food, and therefore cursed it? That seems like most straight forward interpretation of the passage. **

• Thanks in Advance!

these are all old agnostic arguments against being a follower of Jesus! Remember no one dies for a lie knowing its a lie! Millions of the early Christians died believing in Him. I have a copy of the notorius >the bible unmasked: by Jos.Lewis…published 1926 by the freethought press.and its all nonsense and hate also.I like to answer the Jesus haters if they like Karl Marx and do they believe he was a fair minded person…then after much compliments I show them a copy of Marxs anti-semitic “on the Jewish question” a harsh bitter attack against our brothers …so spiteful it was later quoted by Adolph Hitler…the left has kept this essay a deep; dark secret! But they enjoy ripping apart our beliefs in Jesus and the good book!..Remove Christianity from a nation and it becomes a thief in the nite!..no more charity,goodness or peace of mind…its all for the state and only for the state! Quotes taken out of context is an old trick .how about…'the right to life,liberty and the pursuit of happiness"…our declaration of independence condemned abortion my friend,chew over that one.

 

[zdon011]

. Sometimes it’s better (for the sake of one’s sanity, at least) not to get sucked into this kind of debate. I suspect your ‘Nit-picker’ is unlikely to convert even if his unreasonable compendium of questions were answered satisfactorily. He is the hard-hearted product of a sceptical age. St Paul(?) wrote something about people not following sound teaching but chasing after their own desires. That saying, to a great extent, applies to me and most people I know.

4.John 14:28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.”
**Here Jesus clearly states that the Father is greater than him, therefore he cannot be God.
**

Here Our Lord is speaking of his human nature, which is obviously inferior to the Godhead, as is taught in the Creed of St Athanasius. I guess you couldn’t expect your friend to understand the Hypostatic Union of the Divine and Human Natures of Christ.

7.Luke 2:52 Luke 2:40 “And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.” How can God evolve in wisdom? Doesn’t that imply that he lacked wisdom beforehand, thus rendering Jesus imperfect. Also how can he grow in favor with God if he already has the full favor of the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Christ’s divine nature was unchanging, yes. God does not ‘grow’. But humans do grow, and Christ also had a fully human nature. Thus, he was subject to biological and intellectual development, like all humans.

God bless,
zdon

 

[StrawberryJam]

I thought only God could forgive sins? Jesus said he could.

 

[zdon011]

I thought only God could forgive sins? Jesus said he could.

True on both counts. And that can be used as an argument for the divinity of Christ.
What were you implying?

 

[Luke_K]

5.Mark 13:32 (Matthew 24:36) “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” Here Jesus clearly displays ignorance.

The Catechism explains:
474 By its union to the divine wisdom in the person of the Word incarnate, Christ enjoyed in his human knowledge the fullness of understanding of the eternal plans he had come to reveal. What he admitted to not knowing in this area, he elsewhere declared himself not sent to reveal.

It then cites Mark 13:32 and Acts 1:7, where the apostles asked Jesus if he was at that moment going to restore the kingdom to Israel and Jesus responds, “It is not for you to know the times or seasons that the Father has established by his own authority.”

 

[Roy5]

I recognize that this is outrageous heresy, but it has been an intellectual temptation so let me voice some questions and see what happens.

If Jesus were God, I'm not quite sure how God can be killed in any meaningful way by himself. Sort of suicide? And since Christ 'laid down his life' - well, you get the idea. It was something that he deliberately chose to do. I presume it has something to do with the Trinity - like a third of God can be killed without changing the other two???? 

And if Jesus were the son of God, hm - I'm not quite sure that killing his only son was such an admirable thing to do. We certainly send people to jail and maybe the electric chair for such crimes. 

 But, here goes with my real puzzle, If Jesus were God, does his sacrifice have the same meaning? I mean, he knew full well that after a brief time of intense suffering he would go back to ruling the world, governing all of the universe, serving as Lord and King of all that is, sittng on 'the right hand of God the Father Almighty" etc.  It isn't like Joe Jones who lays down his life for his country in battle or Nellie Pelley who sacrifices her life for her child, etc. They didn't have the same position of power to inherit.

 I don't know if this scenario troubles anyone else, but I rather think - forgive this analogy in advance - that many, probably most, human beings would give up their lives, even on a cross, if they knew that they would reign supreme over everything in a couple of days. Actually, how many millions throughout history, including in modern times in concentration camps and gulags and elsewhere, were martyrs for righteousness without the promise of such a glorious future? 

 This, I'm aware, flies in the face of sacred doctrine, but maybe some one can help me out. And this little rime - quoted to me some years ago by a non-practicing Jewish friend - sometimes rings in my ears.

 God published a tale of a girl and a ghost,
 Of devils in pigs and his son on a cross.
 He gave it to man to believe it or roast -
     Yea, his mercy endureth forever!

 I try my best to be a loyal follower of Christ - love God and my neighbor - but some of this theological jargon does leave me wondering and troubled.

 

[Luke_K]

I recognize that this is outrageous heresy, but it has been an intellectual temptation so let me voice some questions and see what happens.

If Jesus were God, I'm not quite sure how God can be killed in any meaningful way by himself. Sort of suicide? And since Christ 'laid down his life' - well, you get the idea. It was something that he deliberately chose to do. I presume it has something to do with the Trinity - like a third of God can be killed without changing the other two???? 

And if Jesus were the son of God, hm - I'm not quite sure that killing his only son was such an admirable thing to do. We certainly send people to jail and maybe the electric chair for such crimes.

God used the freely chosen actions of man- the betrayal, condemnation, and killing of Jesus- to provide the perfect sacrifice and display of love. God did not kill himself, nor did he force anyone to. It’s the answer to the problem of evil- that God would allow evil to exist only if by doing so he would bring a greater good out of it.

 

[Big_Dummy]

Explicit statements of the NT indicate that Jesus retained his divine nature and attributes (Matt.1:23; 11:27; Mark 1:1; John 3:13 AV; 14:9; Rom. 1:4). Examples of Jesus manifesting divine attributes include: omniscience (John 4:16-19; 2:24,25; 6:64; Luke 5:4-6), omnipresence (Matt. 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13), and omnipotence (Luke 4:39; 8:54-55; Matt. 8:26,27).

I see the texts used against the deity of Christ as proving his Hypostatic Union, that is being fully God and fully Man. Those texts proves that he was fully Man, no problem, just a mystery at to how this is possible.

 

[StrawberryJam]

True on both counts. And that can be used as an argument for the divinity of Christ.
What were you implying?

I am arguing for the divinity of Christ.
Others here have not given me reason to think otherwise.

 

[zdon011]

I am arguing for the divinity of Christ.
Others here have not given me reason to think otherwise.

I assure you I would have responded thus even if you were arguing otherwise. zdon

 

[wbarquez]

If we knew everything about the nature of God then he won’t be God, but a natural phenomenon, or we would be God who knows everything. When Jesus Christ became man he, as a man, acted and spoke from, and experienced, the limitations of man. The key is Philippinas 2:6.

 

[Spirithound]

I recognize that this is outrageous heresy, but it has been an intellectual temptation so let me voice some questions and see what happens.

Don’t worry, we’re all friends here, and the devil’s advocate is a long and honourable tradition!

If Jesus were God, I'm not quite sure how God can be killed in any meaningful way by himself. Sort of suicide? And since Christ 'laid down his life' - well, you get the idea. It was something that he deliberately chose to do. I presume it has something to do with the Trinity - like a third of God can be killed without changing the other two????

lol, sorry I don’t really get the idea…It is true that Christ laid down his life of his own accord, but I’m not sure what you mean by bringing in the idea of “a third of God can be killed without changing the other two”. Looking just at the first part, did Jesus commit suicide? No. Thomistic philosophy evaluates a course of action based on 3 criteria: the act itself, the intention, and the circumstances, which can include outcome. So, simply by looking at the act, Jesus did not kill himself, other people killed him. Intention: was it his positive intention to die? Again I say no. If there was no one who wanted to kill him, he would not have wound up dead (so early in life). Circumstances: his actions indicate that he was being docile to God’s Divine Plan; He meant to save mankind from our sins; He actually did save us from out sins. Combining these three criteria, we can see that Jesus did not commit the sin of suicide.

Now the second part. God is infinite, in all three of his Persons, so God is still infinite even when Jesus was dead. Maybe you could flesh this out a bit more?

And if Jesus were the son of God, hm - I'm not quite sure that killing his only son was such an admirable thing to do. We certainly send people to jail and maybe the electric chair for such crimes.

Ah, but God did not kill his son. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit agreed and willed that God the Son was to come to Earth, even knowing what would happen. Of course, any father dreads seeing his son go into danger, but sometimes you’ve gotta let your son be the hero that you know he can be, right?

 But, here goes with my real puzzle, If Jesus were God, does his sacrifice have the same meaning? I mean, he knew full well that after a brief time of intense suffering he would go back to ruling the world, governing all of the universe, serving as Lord and King of all that is, sittng on 'the right hand of God the Father Almighty" etc.  It isn't like Joe Jones who lays down his life for his country in battle or Nellie Pelley who sacrifices her life for her child, etc. They didn't have the same position of power to inherit.

 I don't know if this scenario troubles anyone else, but I rather think - forgive this analogy in advance - that many, probably most, human beings would give up their lives, even on a cross, if they knew that they would reign supreme over everything in a couple of days. Actually, how many millions throughout history, including in modern times in concentration camps and gulags and elsewhere, were martyrs for righteousness without the promise of such a glorious future?

And of course the real puzzle is the best question
The problem with the scenario as you tell it, is that it only covers half of what happened. Yes, Jesus knew that He would rise again in 3 days, but before that, years before that, God the Son took on human form and was born of a woman into our world. You see, the Scandal of the Cross is preceded by the Scandal of the Incarnation. God did not “have to” die on the cross to save us. He did not even have to come to Earth, but He did! The much simpler way to save us would have been for God to simply will it, but God so LOVED the world that He GAVE his only Son! You said it in your question, but I don’t think you realized it: “…after a brief time of intense suffering he would GO BACK to ruling the world”. He gave that up to be humbled by coming to Earth to save us. So your last paragraph there is kind of irrelevant. Jesus’s Kingship is not a reward for him giving up his life, as seems to be the case for the humans in your example, but rather it is his by right, and instead of reclining on his cushy cloud, he gave it up for you.