Arguments Countering The Rapture Theory

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I personally believe it is outstanding
to refer me to seek the counsel of the indwelling Holy Spirit
or to refer me to the revelation of God in the scriptures

Why should I want to know about your perspective
if I can have God’s perspective?
The Church’s perspective is God’s perspective.
Christ established the Catholic Church (the ONLY Church he established) and he gave it Authority. In matters of faith and morals all the teachings of the Church have the authority of Christ backing them up.
 
Where does the scriptures say
that the rapture applies only to believers,
who are in a final state of purification?

Did you add that to what God has revealed in the scriptures?
Lol. Read it again, that is not what I said…I simply said verse 17 was about the living who are on earth when Jesus comes. . As a separate thought, I mentioned the souls in purgatory because they are the souls who have fallen asleep—see the previous verses regarding the dead. Since you had previously mentioned purgatory, I thought I would clarify that once the last day comes there is no more purgatory.
 
In refuting the rapture, it is important first to understand where it comes from. Rapture theology is based, more or less, on a couple of scripture verses.

ONE WILL BE TAKEN, ONE WILL BE LEFT BEHIND

"For as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. In those days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day that Noah entered the ark. They did not know until the flood came and carried them away. So will it be also at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be out in the field; one will be taken, and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken, and one will be left. (Matthew 24: 37-41)

Many point to the text in red as proof of the rapture. Those who are destined for heaven, the good guys, will be taken, and the bad guys will be left behind on earth. This is alway used by those who believe in rapture theology in the absence of the surrounding text

Whether you are taken or left behind gets reversed when the text in red is taken in its proper context. At the time of the great flood, Noah and his family - righteous in the eyes of God - were left behind on earth. The bad guys were swept away by the flood. This is exactly the reverse of what rapture theology teaches, that the sinners get left behind and the good guys get taken away.

The parallel verses in Luke are similarly used by rapture theologists, and like the verses in Matthew 24, are interpreted one hundred eighty degrees out of phase with what scripture actually says. In the Gospel of Luke, reference is made to the time when Lot left Sodom. Like Noah and the flood, when Lot left Sodom, it was the righteous Lot who was left on earth and the evil Sodomites who were taken by fire and brimstone. The good guys were left behind, not the bad guys.

Rapture theology has it 100% reversed from what scripture actually says.

GOING OUT TO MEET JESUS IN THE AIR

Rapture theologists also point to Paul’s comments to the Thessalonians about meeting Jesus in the air as proof of the rapture.

For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thesalonians 4:16-17)

The problem with a rapture interpretation of these verses is that it 1) ignores common military and political customs observed at the time it was written and, 2) ignores Jewish belief about the end of the world at the time when Jesus was alive.

It was common for people who lived in cities to “Go out to meet” visiting dignitaries, kings and military leaders. “Going out to meet” a visiting king or military was either for battle or to make peace. Leaving the safety of a walled city unarmed and traveling several miles to meet a visiting king or military leader was a clear sign that the people of the city were subservient and subordinate to the visiting party. The visiting king would be escorted back to the safety of the city as honored guests. The Old Testament is rife with kings who “Go out to meet” other kings, either for battle, or to escort the king back as a guest in peace.

Jewish belief about the end of the world was that Jerusalem, and all of Israel, would be transformed as part of a new exodus led by the messiah. The transormation of Jerusalem as part of the end of the world is clearly referenced in the book of Revelation.

***I also saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven *from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, God’s dwelling is with the human race. He will dwell with them and they will be his people and God himself will always be with them [as their God]. (Revelation 21:2-3)

Notice that Jerusalem, like Jesus in 1 Thessalonians 4, comes down out of heaven. Notice also that God dwells with men and is “With them.” It is not the other way around. Men don’t dwell with God in heaven but it is God who dwells with men on earth. This is consistent with the political and military practice of “Going out to meet” a king and escorting him back to the city as an honored guest.

These customs and beliefs preclude a rapture intepretation of 1 Thessalonians 4. Remember that Jesus ascended to heaven in a cloud and said that he would return the same way. What Paul was actually saying was that we will go out to meet Jesus in the clouds and then escort him back to earth as an honored guest. Paul was not saying that we would return to heaven with Jesus.

I WILL RAISE HIM ON THE LAST DAY

Rapture theologists say that there will be a ressurection of the “Dead in Christ” approximately 1000 years (give or take) before the end of time.

*No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day. (John 6:44)

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. (John 6:54)*

In the 6th chapter of the Gospel of John, Jesus repeatedly tells us that he will raise us on the last day. Not the last day before the rapture but the LAST day. That non-Catholic adherants to the doctrines of rapture theology would ignore anything in John 6 is no big surprise.

It’s all quite rediculous. Worse than nonsense really. Worse than being just a whacky idea, it’s the rapture is exactly the opposite of what Christ himself said.

-Tim-
 
It’s all quite rediculous. Worse than nonsense really. Worse than being just a whacky idea, it’s the rapture is exactly the opposite of what Christ himself said.

-Tim-
The raising on the last day is the Rapture

Rapture: the future event when Christian believers are suddenly removed
from the Earth before or at the second coming of Christ
 
I personally believe it is outstanding
to refer me to seek the counsel of the indwelling Holy Spirit
or to refer me to the revelation of God in the scriptures

Why should I want to know about your perspective
if I can have God’s perspective?
The Church’s perspective is God’s perspective.
Christ established the Catholic Church (the ONLY Church he established) and he gave it Authority. In matters of faith and morals all the teachings of the Church have the authority of Christ backing them up.
Are you saying that we should not listen
to the counsel of the indwelling Holy Spirit
and not read the scriptures
but that we should listen to all the perspectives of Catholics?
 
The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all who cause others to sin and all evildoers. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears ought to hear. *

So, who did the angels come to collect first? The evildoers!
Are you teaching us to take parables literally?

I am currently having difficulties with squeezing a camel through the eye of a needle
Bear with me!
 
The raising on the last day is the Rapture

Rapture: the future event when Christian believers are suddenly removed
from the Earth before or at the second coming of Christ
The only rapture that’s taking place is that Catholics are being raptured out of the Holy Catholic Church by people who convince them that a piece of fiction which somehow became mainstream Evangelical theology is real.

-Tim-
 
The only rapture that’s taking place is that Catholics are being raptured out of the Holy Catholic Church by people who convince them that a piece of fiction which somehow became mainstream Evangelical theology is real.

-Tim-
Are you now saying that Christians will not be take up with Jesus on the last day?
 
Are you now saying that Christians will not be take up with Jesus on the last day?
I don’t agrue with people whom I have no chance of convincing and who have no change of convincing me. With all due respect, it is a waste of time. We can beat each other over the head all night and that will not advance either one of us toward heaven one inch. On the contrary, it is a near occasion for sin as many of the heated threads on this website attest to. My post was a response to the original question about how to counter rapture theologists, not as a launching point to begin an arguement with one.

Suffice it to say that I believe, consistent with the theaching of the Holy Catholic Church, that rapture theology is not sound theology. After my harsh words about nonsense and whacky theories, I owe you that much.

I’m sure you have sound reasons for your belief and I wish you well. I did not mean to imply that those who believe in any of the many variants of the rapture are likewise nonsensical or whacky. I’m sorry I used such harsh language and hope you can forgive me.

-Tim-
 
I don’t agrue with people whom I have no chance of convincing and who have no change of convincing me. With all due respect, it is a waste of time. We can beat each other over the head all night and that will not advance either one of us toward heaven one inch. On the contrary, it is a near occasion for sin as many of the heated threads on this website attest to.** My post was a response to the original question about how to counter rapture theologists, not as a launching point to begin an arguement with one.**

Suffice it to say that I believe, consistent with the theaching of the Holy Catholic Church, that rapture theology is not sound theology. After my harsh words about nonsense and whacky theories, I owe you that much.

I’m sure you have sound reasons for your belief and I wish you well. I did not mean to imply that those who believe in any of the many variants of the rapture are likewise nonsensical or whacky. I’m sorry I used such harsh language and hope you can forgive me.

-Tim-
I believe that on the last day Christians will be raptured/taken up with the Lord

There is not much point in arguing with one
who objects to the scriptures which prophesy this event
 
I believe that on the last day Christians will be raptured/taken up with the Lord

There is not much point in arguing with one
who objects to the scriptures which prophesy this event
Well then we agree. The true rapture of Jesus Christ takes place on the last day. This is what the Scriptures prophesy and Catholics believe it 100%. However, did it escape your notice that we were talking about a false rapture theory? As I stated in an earlier post, this theory to which we were responding does not go along with the Scriptures, but supposes that true believing Christians will be raptured (taken up by the Lord) seven years before the last day.
 
Well then we agree. The true rapture of Jesus Christ takes place on the last day. This is what the Scriptures prophesy and Catholics believe it 100%. However, did it escape your notice that we were talking about a false rapture theory? As I stated in an earlier post, this theory to which we were responding does not go along with the Scriptures, but supposes that true believing Christians will be raptured (taken up by the Lord) seven years before the last day.
Not all Catholics believe all that the pope teaches either (Cafeteria Catholicism)

so you are not in a position to condemn those who believe in pre-tribulation rapture
 
Not all Catholics believe all that the pope teaches either (Cafeteria Catholicism)

so you are not in a position to condemn those who believe in pre-tribulation rapture
I am not condemning, Jesus forbade me to condemn and I take all His teachings to heart. Condemnation is not the same as gently instructing those who are in error. It would not be love if I let someone persist in their error without saying anything. This counts for “cafeteria Catholics” or evangelical Christians or whoever else.

2 Tim 2:25
A slave of the Lord should not quarrel, but should be gentle with everyone, able to teach, tolerant, correcting opponents with kindness. It may be that God will grant them repentance that leads to knowledge of the truth,

James 5:19-20
My brothers, if anyone among you should stray from the truth and someone bring him back,
he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.*
 
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Tietjen:
👍 👍 Now what Truth Seeking? Your understanding is so very lacking and you want to attempt to come here and take on a 2000 year old Church founded by God? Really?! LOL Good luck with that. The Word of God just called you a liar. :eek:
I am not condemning, Jesus forbade me to condemn and I take all His teachings to heart. Condemnation is not the same as gently instructing those who are in error. It would not be love if I let someone persist in their error without saying anything. This counts for “cafeteria Catholics” or evangelical Christians or whoever else.

2 Tim 2:25
A slave of the Lord should not quarrel, but should be gentle with everyone, able to teach, tolerant, correcting opponents with kindness. It may be that God will grant them repentance that leads to knowledge of the truth,

James 5:19-20
My brothers, if anyone among you should stray from the truth and someone bring him back,
he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.*
You might be gentle but your fellow Catholic thinks that I am a troll.

If I am going to be insulted by 50% by of Catholics
then they might not have a clue who Christ really is.
 
I personally believe it is outstanding
to refer me to seek the counsel of the indwelling Holy Spirit
or to refer me to the revelation of God in the scriptures

Why should I want to know about your perspective
if I can have God’s perspective?
Ahhh, my friend, you make great assumptions without even looking at it!!! Nothing in the presentation contains any opinion whatsoever! It is only a presentation of Truth in a way that it is made clear and understandable. Nothing more, nothing less.

I don’t see why, given your position on scripture ONLY, you wouldn’t WANT to watch it!!

Unless you are afraid it might change your mind…

~Liza
 
You might be gentle but your fellow Catholic thinks that I am a troll.

If I am going to be insulted by 50% by of Catholics
then they might not have a clue who Christ really is.
haha no, you ignored what the op was obviously talking about with respect to the rapture theory and chose to go off on a tangent based on your own idea of what rapture means. Also, please put the victim card back in your pocket and save it for another day.
 
Ahhh, my friend, you make great assumptions without even looking at it!!! Nothing in the presentation contains any opinion whatsoever! It is only a presentation of Truth in a way that it is made clear and understandable. Nothing more, nothing less.

I don’t see why, given your position on scripture ONLY, you wouldn’t WANT to watch it!!

Unless you are afraid it might change your mind…

~Liza
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

I am sorry that this Scripture doesn’t make sense to you,

The word of God tells me to seek the counsel of the indwelling Holy Spirit

I happen to be one of His sheep and thus are able to hear His voice

I have noticed that no one thus far has told me to seek advise from God,
instead I am told to seek the opinion of some human.
 
Well, now that that’s over… 😛

I just hope he takes the time to actually read and listen to what’s been handed to him.

~Liza
 
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

I am sorry that this Scripture doesn’t make sense to you,
One way to understand scripture more fully is to study the political, social, economic and religious context under which the author and his intended audience operated.

The problem with a rapture interpretation of these verses is that it 1) ignores common military and political customs observed at the time it was written and, 2) ignores Jewish belief about the end of the world at the time when Jesus was alive.

It was common for people who lived in cities to “Go out to meet” visiting dignitaries, kings and military leaders. “Going out to meet” a visiting king or military was either for battle or to make peace. Leaving the safety of a walled city unarmed and traveling several miles to meet a visiting king or military leader was a clear sign that the people of the city were subservient and subordinate to the visiting party. The visiting king would be escorted back to the safety of the city as honored guests. The Old Testament is rife with kings who “Go out to meet” other kings, either for battle, or to escort the king back as a guest in peace.

Jewish belief about the end of the world was that Jerusalem, and all of Israel, would be transformed as part of a new exodus led by the messiah. The transormation of Jerusalem as part of the end of the world is clearly referenced in the book of Revelation.

***I also saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven *from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, God’s dwelling is with the human race. He will dwell with them and they will be his people and God himself will always be with them [as their God]. (Revelation 21:2-3)

Notice that Jerusalem, like Jesus in 1 Thessalonians 4, comes down out of heaven. Notice also that God dwells with men and is “With them.” It is not the other way around. Men don’t dwell with God in heaven but it is God who dwells with men on earth. This is consistent with the political and military practice of “Going out to meet” a king and escorting him back to the city as an honored guest.

A thorough understanding of these particular customs and beliefs preclude a rapture intepretation of 1 Thessalonians 4. Remember that Jesus ascended to heaven in a cloud and said that he would return the same way.

What Paul was actually saying was that we will go out to meet Jesus in the clouds and then escort him back to earth as an honored guest. Paul was not saying that we would return to heaven with Jesus.

-Tim-
 
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