Arguments for faith and works

[algebra]

A fundy is trying really hard to convince me that faith is all that is required for salvation.

And by extension the Catholic Church is a whore

I have used the parable of the 10 talents as a defense against him.

I am wondering if there are any other scriptural defenses against this false gospel.

 

[workingman]

A fundy is trying really hard to convince me that faith is all that is required for salvation.

And by extension the Catholic Church is a whore

I have used the parable of the 10 talents as a defense against him.

I am wondering if there are any other scriptural defenses against this false gospel.

Well I will stick to scripture.

Matt. 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works.

Romans 2:6-10,13 Who will render to every man according to his works. 7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: 8 But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. 9 Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek: 10 But glory, and honour, and peace to every one that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also the Greek: 13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Also do a thread search as there are quite a number of them I believe on this topic.

 

[pablope]

A fundy is trying really hard to convince me that faith is all that is required for salvation.

And by extension the Catholic Church is a whore

I have used the parable of the 10 talents as a defense against him.

I am wondering if there are any other scriptural defenses against this false gospel.

Read all of the epistle of james:

Important quotes from james:

James 1:26 (New King James Version)
26 If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless.

James 2:24 (New American Standard Bible)
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

And Book of Rev states nothing unclean can enter heaven…so can your fundy absolutely say that he is sinless?

Revelation 21:27 (New American Standard Bible)

27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

 

[Todd520]

A fundy is trying really hard to convince me that faith is all that is required for salvation.

And by extension the Catholic Church is a whore

I have used the parable of the 10 talents as a defense against him.

I am wondering if there are any other scriptural defenses against this false gospel.

I’ve seen this with Evangelicals and it’s a lost cause to swap scripture.

They seem to see salvation as turning on a light switch - once you are born again, you are saved, the Holy Spirit has entered and changed you completely. With their approach, works aren’t really works because you are a changed person and will follow God’s path by default.

The problem I see is all us still struggle with temptation and sin much more so than they account for in their thinking. In the real world, the light has a dimmer switch and sinning will drift us further away from god (dimming the light). Our regular repentance and obedience to Christ is what helps us keep the light burning bright.

 

[gcnuss]

Try this, from Matthew 25:

31When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ 40And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.’ 41Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?’ 45Then he will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

 

[algebra]

Thanks, his constant argument is that I am using opinion and reason, which is foolish in the eyes of God.

Whilst he is using scripture, which is foolish in the eyes of man, but correct.

This stuff should get him to start thinking beyond his “interpretation”.

 

[ByHisWounds]

Can a Catholic help me out here. I believe that works are not a cause of salvation but rather an effect. Works do not gain us access to eternal life, but true faith results in good works. Is this different from what y’all believe? Blessings.

 

[benedictus2]

Can a Catholic help me out here. I believe that works are not a cause of salvation but rather an effect. Works do not gain us access to eternal life, but true faith results in good works. Is this different from what y’all believe? Blessings.

No, quite different.

Some works do proceed from faith but the grace of God can move one to works without necessarily having the faith that Protestants speak of i.e. acknowledgment that Jesus is God.

Also, works is itself salvific. Otherwise, Jesus would not have had to die on the cross. That is work. People who sacrfifice their lives for others, that is work.

If we are to follow Jesus, the we have to do work because He said those that will enter the kingdom of God are the ones who DO the will of the Father.

The reason works is redemptive is because it is transformative. The more we do good works the more our soul is predesposed towards goodness.

Salvation is not merely a case of being plucked from earth and transported to heaven.

Salvation is essentially a transformation into the image of Christ. And that requires work.

Finally, if we are to image the God who is love, then works is necessary because LOVE is WORK.

 

[hizstory]

Can a Catholic help me out here. I believe that works are not a cause of salvation but rather an effect. Works do not gain us access to eternal life, but true faith results in good works. Is this different from what y’all believe? Blessings.

The teaching of the Catholic Church is that there is a symbiotic union of Faith and Works. Without faith, no man can please God and without works, faith is dead. Both are needed and the ability to have both are graces from God.

Contrary to what many non-Catholics (and even some less educated Catholics) think, the Catholic Church does not teach that a person can work their way into Heaven.

 

[Big_Ro]

The teaching of the Catholic Church is that there is a symbiotic union of Faith and Works. Without faith, no man can please God and without works, faith is dead. Both are needed and the ability to have both are graces from God.

Contrary to what many non-Catholics (and even some less educated Catholics) think, the Catholic Church does not teach that a person can work their way into Heaven.

Yes. I think that’s it exactly.

 

[ByHisWounds]

The teaching of the Catholic Church is that there is a symbiotic union of Faith and Works. Without faith, no man can please God and without works, faith is dead. Both are needed and the ability to have both are graces from God.

Contrary to what many non-Catholics (and even some less educated Catholics) think, the Catholic Church does not teach that a person can work their way into Heaven.

Thank you for this. It really clears things up. I too believe that faith without works is dead. True faith will have works because the too cannot be separated.

 

[fhansen]

I’ve seen this with Evangelicals and it’s a lost cause to swap scripture.

They seem to see salvation as turning on a light switch - once you are born again, you are saved, the Holy Spirit has entered and changed you completely. With their approach, works aren’t really works because you are a changed person and will follow God’s path by default.

The problem I see is all us still struggle with temptation and sin much more so than they account for in their thinking. In the real world, the light has a dimmer switch and sinning will drift us further away from god (dimming the light). Our regular repentance and obedience to Christ is what helps us keep the light burning bright.

Her’s kind of a hodge-podge of verses. Some were copied from another forum member who I can’t remember now.

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time.

Matt 16:26 – rendered according to our works
Rom 2:2-8 - eternal life by perseverance in good works
2Cor 5:10 - recompense accord to what did in body
2Cor 11:15 - their end will correspond to their works
1Pet 1:17 - God judges impartially according to one’s works
Rev 20:12-13 - dead judged according to their works
Col 3:24-25 - will receive due payment for whatever you do
Matt 19:17 - keep the commandmants for eternal life

Matt 7:21 - not everyone saying “Lord, Lord” will inherit eternal life
Matt 24:13 - those who persevere to the end will be saved
Rom 11:22 - remain in his kindness or you will be cut off
Phil 2:12 - work out your salvation in fear and trembling
1Cor 9:27 - drive body for fear of being disqualified
1Cor 10:11-12 - those thinking they are secure may fall
2Tim 2:11-23 - must hold out to the end to reign with Christ – depart from iniquity
Heb 10:26-27 - if sin after receiving truth, judgment remains
John 6:54 eat His flesh and drink His blood and be raised up in the last days - have eternal life
Mark 16:16 - be baptised of water and Spirit (John 3:5) to be saved
Philippians 1:29 - Don’t just believe but suffer for Him

For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Rom 2:13

Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. Heb 12:14

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works. 7 To them indeed who, according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:

Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for **at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.**10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. Gal 6:7-10

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16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18 “Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[c] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”
20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt 5:48

But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.” 1Pet 1:15-16

A difference between fundamentalist theology and Catholic theology is that the fundamentalists believe God saves us in spite of our continued, unavoidable sinfulness whereas the CC teaches were saved by Gods’ helping us to overcome our sinfulness. Both believe we cannot be saved apart from grace.

 

[wmscott]

A fundy is trying really hard to convince me that faith is all that is required for salvation.

And by extension the Catholic Church is a whore

I have used the parable of the 10 talents as a defense against him.

I am wondering if there are any other scriptural defenses against this false gospel.

Then how does he explain 1 Corinthians 13:13 “So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love” (emphasis mine).

His argument is lacking not only in intellect but in Christian “Love”.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Can a Catholic help me out here. I believe that works are not a cause of salvation but rather an effect. Works do not gain us access to eternal life, but true faith results in good works. Is this different from what y’all believe? Blessings.

Yes, this is a common argument that at first seems to make sense. But does it?

Because either way you cut it, it appears that the presence of works is essential for salvation. Let’s suppose that works are indeed a result of true, saving, faith. That means if you do not have resulting works, you do not have true saving faith. So, in order to demonstrate you have true saving faith, you desperately go about doing good works!

What’s the difference? In either case, you have to do good works! To retroactively cause your faith to be true!

So, in either case, the absence of works means no salvation.

Faith vs. works: All a war of words, signifying nothing. Just something to pick about.