Arguments needed against voluntary euthanasia

  • Thread starter Thread starter Johnpeter073
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
If a woman has a miscarriage, people don’t say “Why are you so upset? it was just a lifeless bunch of cells” but when it comes to abortion that’s exactly what they argue.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
I will again go back to the point I made about putting a dog down. If I simply stopped giving it water and food in an attempt to speed his death and kept this up for days on end, I would be considere cruel and inhumane. Why on earth didn’t I take him to the vet and a simple injection would end his life quickly and painlessly.
Obviously it’s very different than the scenario you describe, the time when one stops feeding terminally ill person is when they can no longer stomach any food (throw it all back up again) and require some surgery or something which would just create other major problems at such an age, where it’s just not worth it, so one lets them naturally pass while trying to make them as comfortable as possible.

It is not done in an attempt to deprive them of something in order to ‘speed their death’

Furthermore, when I was younger and our dog died, we didn’t euthanasia her, she was just laying down the whole time, we carried her up to the house, laid her on the veranda, gave her a pat, said our goodbyes, then she had a few small spasms near the end and then passed away that night, buried her the next morning. I did not think it cruel or inhumane, I would think it cruel and inhumane if we had to hold her down while my father gave her a lethal injection, especially if she had a small spasm or something because of that injection because it was sooner than expected and as a shock to her.

I hope this has helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
Obviously it’s very different than the scenario you describe, the time when one stops feeding terminally ill person is when they can no longer stomach any food (throw it all back up again) and require some surgery or something which would just create other problems at such an age, where it’s just not worth it, so one lets them naturally pass while trying to make them as comfortable as possible.

It is not done in an attempt to deprive them of something in order to ‘speed their death’.
I believe that you have been spared the ugliness of a long and protracted death.

My father in law was the last in my experience. There were enough things wrong with him to fill a small medical textbook. Each ailment doing its best to be the one that killed him. On so much medication that he was effectively dead to the world. No ability to even say his last goodbyes or even hear them.

He couldn’t feed himself, so they just stopped feeding him. That is, removed the tubes. He couldn’t take on liquids so they stopped giving them. That, removed the tubes. All just to ‘help him along’. 'Cos I mean, why put the family through the trauma of a protracted death.

He took over a week to die. Only one child in attendence when he finally shuffled off this mortal coill. Everyone else totally wrecked by day upon day of me tal torture. But what a way to go, eh? Why would you want to make it any easier? Every family should go through situations like this. Who’d want to miss it. Who’d want to spoil all those happy days with dad with a simple injection?

But of course, if we allow it, someone is going to want to have their head blown off as a final curtain call. Just think of the mess…

I hope this has helped as well.

Thank you for reading…
 
I believe that you have been spared the ugliness of a long and protracted death.

My father in law was the last in my experience. There were enough things wrong with him to fill a small medical textbook. Each ailment doing its best to be the one that killed him. On so much medication that he was effectively dead to the world. No ability to even say his last goodbyes or even hear them.

He couldn’t feed himself, so they just stopped feeding him. That is, removed the tubes. He couldn’t take on liquids so they stopped giving them. That, removed the tubes. All just to ‘help him along’. 'Cos I mean, why put the family through the trauma of a protracted death.

He took over a week to die. Only one child in attendence when he finally shuffled off this mortal coill. Everyone else totally wrecked by day upon day of me tal torture. But what a way to go, eh? Why would you want to make it any easier? Every family should go through situations like this. Who’d want to miss it. Who’d want to spoil all those happy days with dad with a simple injection?

But of course, if we allow it, someone is going to want to have their head blown off as a final curtain call. Just think of the mess…

I hope this has helped as well.

Thank you for reading…
A simple injection to kill a person who isn’t in pain? It’s the thin end of the wedge for those who think we alone should decide who should live and who should die. It’s significant you’re more concerned about the effect on the family than the sanctity of life. The problem was the medication that had kept him alive artificially and unnecessarily. Modern medicine goes to absurd lengths to sustain life because on the one hand death is regarded as a failure and on the other as a curse whereas in reality it is our natural destination and a blessing when it puts an end to prolonged misery and suffering. A more realistic attitude to incurable disease is to decide whether it is in the interests of those whose lives are at stake:
  1. If they wish to stay alive their wish should be respected.
  2. If they want to let nature to take its course that should also be respected if it is carefully considered and discussed with their friends and relatives.
  3. If they are unconscious without any hope of regaining consciousness there is no reason to keep them alive artificially.
scielo.br/scielo.php?scri…92009000500003
 
A simple injection to kill a person who isn’t in pain? It’s the thin end of the wedge for those who think we alone should decide who should live and who should die. It’s significant you’re more concerned about the effect on the family than the sanctity of life. The problem was the medication that had kept him alive artificially and unnecessarily. Modern medicine goes to absurd lengths to sustain life because on the one hand death is regarded as a failure and on the other as a curse whereas in reality it is our natural destination and a blessing when it puts an end to prolonged misery and suffering. A more realistic attitude to incurable disease is to decide whether it is in the interests of those whose lives are at stake:
  1. If they wish to stay alive their wish should be respected.
  2. If they want to let nature to take its course that should also be respected if it is carefully considered and discussed with their friends and relatives.
  3. If they are unconscious without any hope of regaining consciousness there is no reason to keep them alive artificially.
scielo.br/scielo.php?scri…92009000500003
👍
 
  1. If they wish to stay alive their wish should be respected.
  2. If they want to let nature to take its course that should also be respected if it is carefully considered and discussed with their friends and relatives.
  3. If they are unconscious without any hope of regaining consciousness there is no reason to keep them alive artificially.
It is always the fourth possibility, which is pretended NOT to exist. The one, where people are aware of their pain and also know that it will not be better. They wish to die peacefully, without pain. But their wish should NOT be respected. 😦
 
If a woman has a miscarriage, people don’t say “Why are you so upset? it was just a lifeless bunch of cells” but when it comes to abortion that’s exactly what they argue.
And when an actual person dies, the Christian people do NOT rejoice, even though logically they should. After all the deceased one is now with God, in perfect happiness. 😉 Why the tears? Especially for the baptized children under the age of reason, whose original sin was washed away by baptism, and they were not in the position to collect their own little sins. Somehow the parents do not rejoice… one wonders why?

(Funny that no believer considers that their loved one is in hell, being tortured forever.)
 
And when an actual person dies, the Christian people do NOT rejoice, even though logically they should. After all the deceased one is now with God, in perfect happiness. 😉 Why the tears? Especially for the baptized children under the age of reason, whose original sin was washed away by baptism, and they were not in the position to collect their own little sins. Somehow the parents do not rejoice… one wonders why?

(Funny that no believer considers that their loved one is in hell, being tortured forever.)
We are called to live our lives with purpose before we die. I will be happy to die when my time comes. But my life is not worthless now. The tears are for the sadness of losing a person you loved. Duh.
 
Friends I need some help. I am trying to help one of my friend to develop some arguments against Peter Singer’ argument supporting voluntary euthanasia. Here I quote Singer’s arguments:

Why do we consider killing an innocent person to be wrong?

The answer is twofold.

First, killing someone is a violation of their autonomy. But in the case of voluntary euthanasia, a person’s autonomy is not taken away but supported.

Second, killing an innocent person deprives them of the good things in life they would have otherwise experienced. At this juncture, Singer makes an important qualification. He is not an “absolutist” about autonomy. If a healthy young person is lovesick or depressed, they may temporarily feel that life is not worth living. However, there is much reason to suspect these feelings will pass.

Any arguments to refute it?
From the Summa Theologica of St Thomas Aquinas, Part II-II, Q. 64, art. 5 ‘Whether it is lawful to kill oneself?’

Objection 1. It would seem lawful for a man to kill himself. For murder is a sin in so far as it is contrary to justice. But no man can do an injustice to himself, as is proved in Ethic. v, 11. Therefore no man sins by killing himself.

Objection 3. Further, it is lawful for a man to suffer spontaneously a lesser danger that he may avoid a greater: thus it is lawful for a man to cut off a decayed limb even from himself, that he may save his whole body. Now sometimes a man, by killing himself, avoids a greater evil, for example an unhappy life, or the shame of sin. Therefore a man may kill himself.

On the contrary, Augustine says (De Civ. Dei i, 20): “Hence it follows that the words ‘Thou shalt not kill’ refer to the killing of a man–not another man; therefore, not even thyself. For he who kills himself, kills nothing else than a man.”

I answer that, It is altogether unlawful to kill oneself, for three reasons. First, because everything naturally loves itself, the result being that everything naturally keeps itself in being, and resists corruptions so far as it can. Wherefore suicide is contrary to the inclination of nature, and to charity whereby every man should love himself. Hence suicide is always a mortal sin, as being contrary to the natural law and to charity.

Secondly, because every part, as such, belongs to the whole. Now every man is part of the community, and so, as such, he belongs to the community. Hence by killing himself he injures the community, as the Philosopher declares (Ethic. v, 11).

Thirdly, because life is God’s gift to man, and is subject to His power, Who kills and makes to live. Hence whoever takes his own life, sins against God, even as he who kills another’s slave, sins against that slave’s master, and as he who usurps to himself judgment of a matter not entrusted to him. For it belongs to God alone to pronounce sentence of death and life, according to Deuteronomy 32:39, “I will kill and I will make to live.”

Reply to Objection 1. Murder is a sin, not only because it is contrary to justice, but also because it is opposed to charity which a man should have towards himself: in this respect suicide is a sin in relation to oneself. On relation to the community and to God, it is sinful, by reason also of its opposition to justice.

Reply to Objection 3. Man is made master of himself through his free-will: wherefore he can lawfully dispose of himself as to those matters which pertain to this life which is ruled by man’s free-will. But the passage from this life to another and happier one is subject not to man’s free-will but to the power of God. Hence it is not lawful for man to take his own life that he may pass to a happier life, nor that he may escape any unhappiness whatsoever of the present life, because the ultimate and most fearsome evil of this life is death, as the Philosopher states (Ethic. iii, 6). Therefore to bring death upon oneself in order to escape the other afflictions of this life, is to adopt a greater evil in order to avoid a lesser…
 
And when an actual person dies, the Christian people do NOT rejoice, even though logically they should. After all the deceased one is now with God, in perfect happiness.
Not necessarily. A loved one may well be in purgatory because most of us need to expiate the needless suffering we have caused deliberately or through neglect.
Why the tears? Especially for the baptized children under the age of reason, whose original sin was washed away by baptism, and they were not in the position to collect their own little sins. Somehow the parents do not rejoice… one wonders why?
For the simple reason that they are separated from their child. No matter how strong their faith the grief of loss overcomes all other considerations.
(Funny that no believer considers that their loved one is in hell, being tortured forever.)
It isn’t funny but reasonable because it is foolish to be a pessimist and imagine the worst - as if most people are diabolically evil. We should live in hope not fear because Christ died for us.

BTW Those who are in hell torture themselves with their pride, selfishness, lust for power, independence and lack of love for others. We see evidence of that egoism in this world…
 
Not necessarily. A loved one may well be in purgatory because most of us need to expiate the needless suffering we have caused deliberately or through neglect.
SSDD. Purgatory is only a short and finite stop, if it exists at all.
For the simple reason that they are separated from their child. No matter how strong their faith the grief of loss overcomes all other considerations.
So they are sorry for themselves, and not happy for their child. Very selfish attitude.
 
SSDD. Purgatory is only a short and finite stop, if it exists at all.

So they are sorry for themselves, and not happy for their child. Very selfish attitude.
What? You have never grieved for a lost loved one? Weird, man, weird.
 
Not necessarily. A loved one may well be in purgatory because most of us need to expiate the needless suffering we have caused deliberately or through neglect.
What exactly do you believe? .
For the simple reason that they are separated from their child. No matter how strong their faith the grief of loss overcomes all other considerations.
So they are sorry for themselves, and not happy for their child. Very selfish attitude.

Only psychopaths are unaffected by the death of their child.
 
What? You have never grieved for a lost loved one? Weird, man, weird.
For unbelievers grieving is rational. For believers it is not. For the non-believers the separation is final, the loved one is lost forever - hence the grieving. For believers the separation is just a temporary event - a few decades before the reunion. And if the deceased one is supposed to be with God, then the separation should be accepted with joy and happiness. Sure, you might feel some irrelevant, miniscule “loss”, but that should be overshadowed by the incredible happiness you feel for your child.

A simple, but inadequate analogy would be: “your child lost a penny, but she won the jackpot on the lottery. The loss of the penny is irrelevant in comparison to the winning of the millions of dollars.”
 
For unbelievers grieving is rational. For believers it is not. For the non-believers the separation is final, the loved one is lost forever - hence the grieving. For believers the separation is just a temporary event - a few decades before the reunion. And if the deceased one is supposed to be with God, then the separation should be accepted with joy and happiness. Sure, you might feel some irrelevant, miniscule “loss”, but that should be overshadowed by the incredible happiness you feel for your child.

A simple, but inadequate analogy would be: “your child lost a penny, but she won the jackpot on the lottery. The loss of the penny is irrelevant in comparison to the winning of the millions of dollars.”
Even atheists say, “well they are better off now” after a person dies. But that doesn’t stop the sorrow of the separation. When we are close to someone, and they leave this earth where we make our home, we feel the loss of them here with us on earth. Eventually the sorrow becomes less.

Grief is a little selfish, of course. It’s about us being left behind to carry on without the loved one until we die.

By the way, there is nothing rational about grief. It is emotional. We are human beings, not robots!

Of course we know we will meet again in heaven, so that is a consolation.
 
Even atheists say, “well they are better off now” after a person dies. But that doesn’t stop the sorrow of the separation. When we are close to someone, and they leave this earth where we make our home, we feel the loss of them here with us on earth. Eventually the sorrow becomes less.

Grief is a little selfish, of course. It’s about us being left behind to carry on without the loved one until we die.

By the way, there is nothing rational about grief. It is emotional. We are human beings, not robots!

Of course we know we will meet again in heaven, so that is a consolation.
For atheists there is no such consolation yet they cannot prove God doesn’t exist nor can they prove the combination of chance and physical necessity is an adequate explanation of the origin and development of an orderly, intelligible universe in which there are rational beings capable of insight, self-control and control of their environment.
 
Originally Posted by Bradski
And arguing against something simply because you can personally envisage that at some future time it would devolve into something unacceptable is, in itself, simply unacceptable. We are discussing firstly whether it should be allowed and secondly, if so, under what conditions.
If you don’t think it should be allowed in the first instance then anything you raise in regard to what it might become is a non sequitur.
You are not just creating a law that affects you only, but millions of others including future generations as well. Arguing for something that will affect future generations without considering long term consequences is not just “unacceptable”, it is irresponsible as well.

So far, I have not heard any valid argument that voluntary euthanasia would be good for society as a whole. The only arguments that have been presented have been based on autonomy, death with dignity, and unnecessary suffering.

The argument for autonomy has been demonstrated to be hypocrisy, therefore an invalid argument.

Death with dignity has been demonstrated to be subjective, therefore an invalid argument.

What constitutes “unnecessary suffering” is also subjective, therefore an invalid argument. It should also be noted here that no one is required to receive surgery, drugs, etc that artificially prolong their life and in the process artificially prolong their suffering and in many cases over time make it worse. It seems to me that people choose to artificially prolong life beyond what the body can endure, which causes more suffering, and then as a solution to the artificially caused extended suffering, want to choose euthanasia. That isn’t true in every case, but for the most part that doesn’t seem like a very rational argument, not to mention that the effectiveness of pain medication pretty much makes “unnecessary suffering” a moot point.

To immediately jump to “under what conditions” euthanasia should be allowed, without providing any valid reasons why it should be allowed in the first place, or how it is good for society, is a non sequitur.
Originally Posted by Bradski
To suggest that one cannot impose limits in the case of euthanasia is nonsensical. Anybody who supports it knows full well that there must be limits.
As has already been pointed out, regardless of what limits would be imposed, it only takes one person to make a case against whatever limit for that limit to be expanded or removed completely. Despite all the discussions about where to set the starting limits among advocates for euthanasia, there is no controlling where one person could take it from there. Even though “anybody who supports it knows full well that there must be limits”, you have provided no argument that these legal limits could realistically be upheld and maintained in a court of law. And since “to suggest that one cannot impose limits in the case of euthanasia is nonsensical”, then the position of not legalizing euthanasia regardless of life expectancy, age, or illness is the more sensible and the only non-arbitrary limit to realistically impose.
And as I said, I’m not the slightest interested in where you think the situation MAY end up if you have already declared yourself to be against it in the first instance. You have already excluded yourself from the discussion of how it should be controlled.
Seriously? That is like saying that people opposed to private gun ownership should be excluded from the discussion of how it should be controlled. It is precisely because they are opposed to it, that they have the right to be involved in the discussion.
 
You are not just creating a law that affects you only, but millions of others including future generations as well. Arguing for something that will affect future generations without considering long term consequences is not just “unacceptable”, it is irresponsible as well.

So far, I have not heard any valid argument that voluntary euthanasia would be good for society as a whole. The only arguments that have been presented have been based on autonomy, death with dignity, and unnecessary suffering.

The argument for autonomy has been demonstrated to be hypocrisy, therefore an invalid argument.

Death with dignity has been demonstrated to be subjective, therefore an invalid argument.

What constitutes “unnecessary suffering” is also subjective, therefore an invalid argument. It should also be noted here that no one is required to receive surgery, drugs, etc that artificially prolong their life and in the process artificially prolong their suffering and in many cases over time make it worse. It seems to me that people choose to artificially prolong life beyond what the body can endure, which causes more suffering, and then as a solution to the artificially caused extended suffering, want to choose euthanasia. That isn’t true in every case, but for the most part that doesn’t seem like a very rational argument, not to mention that the effectiveness of pain medication pretty much makes “unnecessary suffering” a moot point.

To immediately jump to “under what conditions” euthanasia should be allowed, without providing any valid reasons why it should be allowed in the first place, or how it is good for society, is a non sequitur.

As has already been pointed out, regardless of what limits would be imposed, it only takes one person to make a case against whatever limit for that limit to be expanded or removed completely. Despite all the discussions about where to set the starting limits among advocates for euthanasia, there is no controlling where one person could take it from there. Even though “anybody who supports it knows full well that there must be limits”, you have provided no argument that these legal limits could realistically be upheld and maintained in a court of law. And since “to suggest that one cannot impose limits in the case of euthanasia is nonsensical”, then the position of not legalizing euthanasia regardless of life expectancy, age, or illness is the more sensible and the only non-arbitrary limit to realistically impose.
Seriously? That is like saying that people opposed to private gun ownership should be excluded from the discussion of how it should be controlled. It is precisely because they are opposed to it, that they have the right to be involved in the discussion.
👍 Incisive and decisive! Life is such a precious gift that any attempt to make it an entirely personal matter is totally unjustified. We can sympathise with those who want to die as swiftly and painlessly as possible but that doesn’t mean we should encourage or assist them. We are not isolated individuals but members of a community who are deeply affected by suicide of any description. We have a moral obligation to do everything we can to prevent it becoming a routine event like having an abortion which is widely accepted as a woman’s right even if it is just for the sake of convenience. When life becomes cheap there is no limit to the excuses that will be found for “mercy-killing”. As it already occurs before children are born there is good reason to believe it will be extended to anyone considered incapable of normal development in later life. Why should the right to life depend on the fact of birth? Does it make any significant difference to the sanctity of life? Or is the right to life simply a human convention with no rational foundation?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top