Arguments to protect unborn babies conceived in rape

[buffalo]

Why Can’t we love them both?

By Dr. & Mrs. J.C. Willke
A Right-to-Life question and answer book

Read this!

Here is the Chapter on Rape

 

[Peace-bwu]

when I was 12, my best friend posed this same question… what about rape and incest? My young mind came up with the same answer I have today… “It’s not the baby’s fault, why should the baby have to suffer and die?” Then I began to describe the pain and horror the baby suffers in various methods of abortion. Two wrongs don’t make a right, and a mother must suffer not only rape but the murder of her child? I dare say it’s like being raped all over again. I have imagined myself in this position, and I would give life to the baby and either put the child up for adoption or raise the child without the father, obviously. The damage of the rape is already done, killing the baby would not undo the rape, but it would kill a human being with unlimited potential. I detest the quality of life argument for abortion. I view it as silent genocide. Does anyone have the statistics breakdown for # of abortions of various races/ cultures? For over 30 yrs people have argued that abortion would solve poverty and abuse yadda yadda yadda. Violence leads to more violence, the stats for violent crime and abortion in this country are nearly parallel. How many great minds have been destroyed? The cure for cancer could have died in a kick bucket in an abortion clinic 30 years ago. Abraham Lincoln was poor, Read about the life of Frederick Douglas. According to this argument, it would have been “merciful” for them to have been aborted, and this is just two men of the same historical period. There are countless other examples, but you get the picture. Some say abortion could help break the cycle of abuse, I say it is abuse itself and further allows those involved to “waller” in their abusive lifestyles, because they have no personal consequences, unless their conscience leads them to regret their abortion. even then, guilt often leads to more abusive behavior. Abortion (and Birth Control )help to enable the acceptance of promiscuity, risky sex, std’s. The myth of “safe sex” is like playing Russian Roulette. Abortion and “safe sex” have not cured the social blight they were supposed to cure, they have made it more common.( I agree “safe sex” is not the issue here, take it out if you wish) Our society should help a woman in poverty, give her food and shelter, not kill her baby and leave her to suffer. We should address the problems of society, not attemt to remedy them with the dirty bandage of abortion. Abortion does not cure any known mental illness or disease, let alone social problems.

  During an abortion, the mother gets anesthetic, they baby is dismembered or burned alive with chemicals, fully capable of feeling pain. What a hellish death! The naked, delicate defenseless little baby is unable to get away or be comforted, or even scream.  The thought of this is unbearable.

Couple these arguments with current statistics, and they are strong.

 

[angelnurse]

This is always the one that traps a lot of people into justifying abortion. Two wrongs do not make a right. It is still the taking of an innocent human life. The woman would need a lot of support to carry the baby, there are many crisis support centers that are there to help her with housing emotional and any other support she may need. I have an excellent book Pro Life Answers to pro Choice Questions I will look up the author for you it has every arguement for abortion and the answers right there. The baby can be given for adoption if the mother cannot keep the child. So many options but abortion is not one of them.

 

[gomer_tree]

These responses are very good, but none address the simple question of logic.

First, you must get the person to acknowledge that you believe abortion is murder. Even if that person disagrees, and even are angered by your position, once they acknowledge that you believe that “fetus” is a human life, you can turn the question around: “Now, if I believe that this is truly a human being, then what kind of person would I be if I said ‘I’m against murder, except for a certain class of people.’ In this case, the class is determined by how they were conceived.”

I’ve had much success simply by showing the logic in being completely inconsistent. In fact, I’ve had people who favor abortion rights tell me that they can’t understand how some pro-life people can ever accept any exceptions if they really believe what they say they believe.

(Accepting limited improvements, of course, is another question. Just because we accept them does not mean we are satisfied with them, but an improvement is an improvement nonetheless.)

 

[RSulli]

Regardless of the circumstances, God wanted that child to come into being. Nobody has the right to take a human life except God. We don’t always understand why he permits an evil, but we do know it is because a greater good will come from it…

I am a lay person and pro-life. I agree with the statement here about God wanting a child to come into being. I agree NOBODY HAS THE RIGHT TO TAKE A HUMAN HUMAN LIFE EXCEPT GOD.

It would appear my pastor has a different view. Pro-life folks that see God’s creation as LIFE GIVING need to be aware of a subtle message from progressive clergy, my pastor included, concerning the up-comming political season. My question to my pastor was this. Is it moral to vote for a politician who consistently votes for abortion rights regardless the circumstances? His answer was simply; “the gospel teaches us to have more concern for the lives of others than our own.”

By virtue of his answer and other comments in Chuch and in his news letter, my pastor is very consistent, implying that yes, we may vote for pro-abortion candidates if our view is the persons act to provide assistance to others.
Our choice, in voting, is governed by our conscience relative to a scale of need is the way I see it.

This pastor calls up the Catechism and “The Epistle of Barnabus” that COMMANDS us to seek the common good of others. By implication and omission, at least to me, he is saying; " abortion SHOULD NOT BE a determinant in considering political office seekers. According to his response I may then, in good conscience, vote for my Senator who has voted the NARAL agenda straight down the line including partial birth abortion. He has voted against all restrictions to abortion.

The senator as voted for all laws called liberal or left wing. If I am a liberal and vote for left wing candidates, then I may vote for this senator.

I will ask here the same question I asked my pastor. Will God be happy or not with my vote? He did not answer that question.

 

[VeronicaAnne]

I am a lay person and pro-life. I agree with the statement here about God wanting a child to come into being. I agree NOBODY HAS THE RIGHT TO TAKE A HUMAN HUMAN LIFE EXCEPT GOD.

It would appear my pastor has a different view. Pro-life folks that see God’s creation as LIFE GIVING need to be aware of a subtle message from progressive clergy, my pastor included, concerning the up-comming political season. My question to my pastor was this. Is it moral to vote for a politician who consistently votes for abortion rights regardless the circumstances? His answer was simply; “the gospel teaches us to have more concern for the lives of others than our own.”

By virtue of his answer and other comments in Chuch and in his news letter, my pastor is very consistent, implying that yes, we may vote for pro-abortion candidates if our view is the persons act to provide assistance to others.
Our choice, in voting, is governed by our conscience relative to a scale of need is the way I see it.

This pastor calls up the Catechism and “The Epistle of Barnabus” that COMMANDS us to seek the common good of others. By implication and omission, at least to me, he is saying; " abortion SHOULD NOT BE a determinant in considering political office seekers. According to his response I may then, in good conscience, vote for my Senator who has voted the NARAL agenda straight down the line including partial birth abortion. He has voted against all restrictions to abortion.

The senator as voted for all laws called liberal or left wing. If I am a liberal and vote for left wing candidates, then I may vote for this senator.

I will ask here the same question I asked my pastor. Will God be happy or not with my vote? He did not answer that question.

Hmmm. I hear that what your pastor said, when he said – as you quoted him –

the gospel teaches us to have more concern for the lives of others than our own

is clearly that “others” includes AT LEAST the others who are currently living in their mother’s womb.

Therefore, to answer you question, my answer to you is that the Gospel (Jesus’s teaching) includes folks who are living in their mother’s womb, and for the abortionists, and those who help the abortionists, and those who fund the abortionists, and those politicians to act politically to fund the abortionists, and for those of us who fight against abortion of any kind at any time, and politicians who fight FOR the right of everyone to live EVEN though they are in their mother’s womb right now, and for those of us who use our own political power to vote AGAINST any candidate who is pro-abortion.

In other words – Jesus wants us to LOVE each other AS we love ourselves.

Part of that “loving” each other is to:

Instruct the ignorant – so our step here to take is to instruct the abortionists and those who help them that what they are doing is against God’s will – and to instruct them as well as those women who have had an abortion or helped someone to have an abortion that mercy is theirs for the asking.

Bottom line – I do not hear anything at all for what your pastor said that says that you SHOULD vote for pro-abortion candidates.

I think he was simply giving you the global meaning of the Gospel. And trusting that you would hear what the Gospel says has nothing at all to do with how you label yourself or others as “liberal,” or “conservative,” or anything between the two.

After all… I’d call myself “radical” – as Jesus, Himself, is/was. We Christians are here to bring the Good News – to everyone. Including those of us who are currently still living in our mother’s womb.

Did that help you, I hope? I hope?

 

[VeronicaAnne]

There’s a page at the EWTN Web site about Faith Questions & Answers which is about only Morality & Voting. The page is a framed page, which means that it does not have its own particular Web address, so I’m putting a paragraph from it here –

We encourage all citizens, particularly Catholics, to embrace their citizenship not merely as a duty and privilege, but as an opportunity meaningfully to participate in building the culture of life. Every voice matters in the public forum. Every vote counts. Every act of responsible citizenship is an exercise of significant individual power. We must exercise that power in ways that defend human life, especially those of God’s children who are unborn, disabled or otherwise vulnerable. We get the public officials we deserve. Their virtue–or lack thereof–is a judgment not only on them, but on us. Because of this we urge our fellow citizens to see beyond party politics, to analyze campaign rhetoric critically and to choose their political leaders according to principle, not party affiliation or mere self-interest.

[Living the Gospel of Life: A Challenge to American Catholics 34, National Conference of Catholic Bishops, November 1998]

That page continues with a lot of good information to advise us Christians on how to use our voting power.

This is how you get there –

From the EWTN Home page, put your mouse on the word “Faith” and when you see the drop-down menu,

roll your mouse over the words “Catholic Q&A”

and wait until a new drop-down menu shows up on the right side of the drop-down menu that appears once you’ve rolled your mouse over the words “Catholic Q&A” . This new drop-down menu gives you a choice to click on “Faith FAQs”.

Click on Faith FAQ’s. This gives you a new window that gives you a list of various topics. One of those topics is:

**“Moral Theology.” **Click on it, and you get a new window that lists various topics.

You’ll want to click on “Voting in Elections.”

Hope this helps clear up any confusion you have for what we are called to be aware of and use when we vote.

 

[RSulli]

Hmmm. I hear that what your pastor said, when he said – as you quoted him –

the gospel teaches us to have more concern for the lives of others than our own

is clearly that “others” includes AT LEAST the others who are currently living in their mother’s womb.

Therefore, to answer you question, my answer to you is that the Gospel (Jesus’s teaching) includes folks who are living in their mother’s womb, and for the abortionists, and those who help the abortionists, and those who fund the abortionists, and those politicians to act politically to fund the abortionists, and for those of us who fight against abortion of any kind at any time, and politicians who fight FOR the right of everyone to live EVEN though they are in their mother’s womb right now, and for those of us who use our own political power to vote AGAINST any candidate who is pro-abortion.

In other words – Jesus wants us to LOVE each other AS we love ourselves.

Part of that “loving” each other is to:

Instruct the ignorant – so our step here to take is to instruct the abortionists and those who help them that what they are doing is against God’s will – and to instruct them as well as those women who have had an abortion or helped someone to have an abortion that mercy is theirs for the asking.

Bottom line – I do not hear anything at all for what your pastor said that says that you SHOULD vote for pro-abortion candidates.

I think he was simply giving you the global meaning of the Gospel. And trusting that you would hear what the Gospel says has nothing at all to do with how you label yourself or others as “liberal,” or “conservative,” or anything between the two.

After all… I’d call myself “radical” – as Jesus, Himself, is/was. We Christians are here to bring the Good News – to everyone. Including those of us who are currently still living in our mother’s womb.

Did that help you, I hope? I hope?

 Thank you.  Your note did help.  I see now that the use of political labels bring little clarity to the dialogue.  It is just that my community, including the catholic population, continue to elect pro-abortion activist politicians.  No amount of education will  turn the minds of these people.  Abortion is their sacrament and any attempt, no matter how tangental, to restrict it results in violent opposition.

It is tragic that these people have attached themselves to the Democratic party.

Pope Benedict XVI is pretty clear when he proclaims the moral imperative for Catholics is not to vote for pro-abortion candidates. Or have I missed something along the way. My pastor seems to have missed it.

Thank you again for you interest and response. I really appreciated it.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

There are beautiful testimonies of people who are “products” of rape to share with him.

The baby did not rape you, therefore you should not punish an innocent person for the crimes on another ( eze 18).

You have the opition of letting me adopt him or her.

You have the opiton of giving the child up for adoption to a loving home.

There are prolife groups willing to help you with expenses durling pregancy.

Abortion increases your chances of breast cancer.

Discuss post abortion syndrome, where women who have had an abortion suffer emotionally and would have better off giving a child up for adoption rather than killing him or her.

 

[runandsew]

Years ago before I changed my view on Abortion, I tried to argue with a non-Catholic friend that abortion should be allowed for rapes.

He informed me that his wife was born out of a rape, and she was a loving caring Christian wife and mother.

I changed my view after he told me this.

 

[The_Barbarian]

I can accept that one might, out of error in understanding the nature of being human, accept that abortion is not murder. If you are mistaken about when human life begins, then it follows that you might accept abortion.

But I have never understood the thinking that concludes abortion is taking a human life, but that it’s OK in cases of rape or incest. If the child is conceived under awful circumstances, it is still one of God’s children, and it deserves life no less than any other child.

Or so I think.

 

[VeronicaAnne]

Thank you. Your note did help. I see now that the use of political labels bring little clarity to the dialogue. It is just that my community, including the catholic population, continue to elect pro-abortion activist politicians. No amount of education will turn the minds of these people. Abortion is their sacrament and any attempt, no matter how tangental, to restrict it results in violent opposition.

It is tragic that these people have attached themselves to the Democratic party.

Pope Benedict XVI is pretty clear when he proclaims the moral imperative for Catholics is not to vote for pro-abortion candidates. Or have I missed something along the way. My pastor seems to have missed it.

Thank you again for you interest and response. I really appreciated it.

Without judging your pastor, I’d say that it’s possibly that your pastor is trying to be “gentle” with folks who have had or participated in an abortion so that they don’t run away from church or God.

He may be trying to sound as though it just COULD be possible that it’s okay to have had (or participated in) an abortion because the outcome of reality is way too much for a person to handle if they feel pushed away by someone at church, much less a priest!

He may be thinking that IF he said ANYTHING at all about how to vote that his parish would be breaking the law in America to keep Church and State separate. When, in fact, the Constitution says that the country of America will NOT have a religion of any kind that EVERYBODY has to bow down to.

Let’s pray for your pastor. And for people who are NOT hearing that what he is saying would be that we are to love everyone – all the time.

Which, of course, includes the unborn. But he just didn’t say it so clearly.

 

[hasikelee]

Hey all,

I have a friend that I have recently started talking to again. We got on the abortion topic. I told him I am adamantly Pro-Life…and then came the expected…what about rape and incest. I told him that those situations only account for about 1% of the abortions procured and it doesn’t matter, because that baby is still a human being with the right to live.

First, he is not a Catholic, and has no idea about our view on the redemptive nature of suffering and all the rest. So, he followed and said you would rather see a child suffer and be beaten and abused and blah blah blah or become a murderer because of the dad’s criminal behaviour. Automatically, assuming that this child would have a horrible life. Of course, my first comment was,“oh so just kill the baby so he doesn’t suffer, duh?” I said we cannot predetermine what are to become of people’s life. Normal people give birth to future criminals, too…

I would just like some more logical arguments to present him with on this subject. I care about him and feel maybe I am the person that is to be the one to introduce the faith and these types of things to him. Thanks for any advice and links. God Bless!

Peace

Why not appeal to his emotions, not his logic, seeing as how if he had a strong logical structure the humanity issue would have already lead him on the path of being anti-abortion.

There are hundreds of sites online where women who have been raped give testimony about their abortions. Why not print a few and make him read their side of the story.

 

[strngrnrth]

I’d use an analogy. Suppose you are on a lifeboat alone and you are attacked by pirates, who beat you, take your jewelry and money and leave. They have a child with them, a hostage, who accidentally ends up on your boat. There you are, forced to share provisions with this innocent little one, who needs you. Is it the child’s fault this happened to you? Is it acceptable to throw the child out? No! Anyone would recognize that the child is also an innocent victim, just as you are, and should be cared for. To kill an innocent child for being a reminder of a traumatic experience can never be OK.

 

[didymus]

Hey all,

I have a friend that I have recently started talking to again. We got on the abortion topic. I told him I am adamantly Pro-Life…and then came the expected…what about rape and incest. I told him that those situations only account for about 1% of the abortions procured and it doesn’t matter, because that baby is still a human being with the right to live.

First, he is not a Catholic, and has no idea about our view on the redemptive nature of suffering and all the rest. So, he followed and said you would rather see a child suffer and be beaten and abused and blah blah blah or become a murderer because of the dad’s criminal behaviour. Automatically, assuming that this child would have a horrible life. Of course, my first comment was,“oh so just kill the baby so he doesn’t suffer, duh?” I said we cannot predetermine what are to become of people’s life. Normal people give birth to future criminals, too…

I would just like some more logical arguments to present him with on this subject. I care about him and feel maybe I am the person that is to be the one to introduce the faith and these types of things to him. Thanks for any advice and links. God Bless!

Peace

Inform your friend that you are psychic and in 2008 he will be struck with paranoid schizophrenia, lose his job, home, everything. Worse, he will murder a young mother and her infant son and wind up in prison there to be beaten & buggered by fellow prisoners, blah blah blah.

Would he like to be surgically torn apart to avoid such a life of misery?

 

[Bruised_Reed]

From an old thread:

Rape, Incest and Abortion

Abortion Cures Rape

The Second Rape

Pregnant by a Rapist?

From the second link:

There is a curious thing about rape: People often place a stigma on the victim, as if she was the criminal rather than the rapist. They discuss what she might have done to invite it.

People are (understandably) very uncomfortable with the subject of rape. If one gets rid of that reminder then we can all go one with our lives as thought never happened.

 

[hasikelee]

We’re only a step behind those countries that kill women who are victims of rape.

 

[Newbie2]

I wonder…

How many people have had a female dog

and that female dog was out scampering in the back yard, and along came a male and jumped her

She gets pregnant…essentially… thru an UNWANTED sex act.

How man Humans do we know have said, the pregnancy must be terminated…vs… how many after the shock of the news said…YEAH!!! PUPPIES!!!

Pleas apply the above for Incest between animals as well…

Maybe not THE “best” analogy…but there is some truth it…besides…my first coffee hasnt kicked in yet…

Agreed, not the best analogy. In my experience as a veterinarian, female dogs who don’t want to get bred…well…don’t. Even in cases where a female is in raging heat and they for whatever reason don’t like the male; it’s a no-go. Otherwise, we’d never have to perform AIs.

Very good answers in this thread. :clapping:

 

[RSulli]

I love the line in an old movie (Steve McQueen or Paul Neuman); “what we have here is a failure to communicate”. The situation is; the powerful protagonist just doesn’t get it when his counterpart in the story, a common inmate, continually misbehaves.

Think of this please, and substitute any of the current abortion dilemmas.

Pro-live activists (and I are one) are the outcasts of the political correct world; we just don’t get the nuances and shades of gray choking the life arguments. We get crosswise with everybody.

I ask the question of a catholic clergy: “should a catholic vote for a pro-abortion candidate?” Simple question I am supposing. Silly me. The response is: “Bob, you just don’t understand. You don’t understand the gospel message. You don’t understand it when I tell you: ‘to follow the example of Christ and require responsibility for all the defenseless in our society.’”

“Who are the defenseless?”
“There you go again with the simple questions. The defenseless are everyone in society who needs help. Vote for the politician who follows the example of Christ.”

I question: “The politician who promises to eventually take care of all the defenseless alike is the one I should vote for?”

“By golly Bob, I believe you have it! We are communicating”.

 

[RSulli]

Without judging your pastor, I’d say that it’s possibly that your pastor is trying to be “gentle” with folks who have had or participated in an abortion so that they don’t run away from church or God.

He may be trying to sound as though it just COULD be possible that it’s okay to have had (or participated in) an abortion because the outcome of reality is way too much for a person to handle if they feel pushed away by someone at church, much less a priest!

He may be thinking that IF he said ANYTHING at all about how to vote that his parish would be breaking the law in America to keep Church and State separate. When, in fact, the Constitution says that the country of America will NOT have a religion of any kind that EVERYBODY has to bow down to.

Let’s pray for your pastor. And for people who are NOT hearing that what he is saying would be that we are to love everyone – all the time.

Which, of course, includes the unborn. But he just didn’t say it so clearly.

The Constitution says: “Congress shall make no law infringing of the right of religion expression…” As far as I am aware there is no law against a clergyman talking about politics from the pulpit. They may do the “politically correct thing” or have a political agenda preventing their guiding the faithful.