Aristotelian substance theory and transubstantiation

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Have you noticed something missing yet? How do you get from lifeless atoms to living atoms?
They FUNCTION in an ANIMATED way. More logical error.
But apparently a collection of inanimate atoms anyways. So man, by your definition, is inanimate atoms + spirit. But what is the relationship of this spirit to the atoms?
That would depend on how the two interact. My belief is that the spiritual gives us moral awareness and free will, and interacts with our minds.
“Animated system of molecules”? But what animates it? Maybe that spirit you alluded to earlier?
Not in the case of plants. Certainly not in the case of single celled organisms. Probably not in the case of animals, either.
And “System of molecules”? I think you mean “arrangement of atoms” as you repeated inisitently ad nauseam earlier. Your whole complaint against substance theory is that everything is just an “arrangement of atoms”. Now I am asking you to think about the implications of that.
Now you’re arguing from what you perceive to be bad consequences. Another logical fallacy.
Problem: “system of molecules” does not “animate atoms” make.
Category error. Again. Failure to distinguish being from function.
You are a physical (atomic) being. You are alive. The atoms in you either are or are not. But if the atoms-that-are-you are not alive, then neither is your body (or anyone’s, for that matter). So what causes atoms to be or become alive? Your body is alive. Your body is atoms. Atoms are not alive.
Again, with the category error, confusing being with function. Atoms may function in an animate fashion when assembled with other atoms in a particular way. They also may function in an inanimate way when not assembled as such.
So what is causing these lifeless/inanimate atoms to suddenly be the structure actively composing a single, living body; namely yours?
The way they are assembled to function.
What brings all these atoms together into one, single, unified living harmony that is you? Add as many atoms as you like. How it is they manage to collude together and become animate in even a single cell organism is still a baffling mystery.
Actually, it’s not. Science pretty much knows how all that happens. The only mystery that remains is the idea of free will and moral responsibility in a very deterministic material world.

Which is the realm of the spiritual.
Are you seeing why the Greeks insisted that life was an invisible and immaterial principle?
Yeah, they thought matter was made up of earth, wind, fire, and water. They lacked the knowledge of the material world to understand how atoms form molecules, so they claims that some immaterial substance was the fundamental efficient cause and determined how the subject behaved.

Modern science now knows this isn’t true.
You can’t get life out of dead/intert matter.
False and unsupported statement. We take dead/intert matter and make it a part of our living bodies all the time. It’s called “EATING.”
Something is causing the atomic thing called you/your body to be animate and unified as one single living organism : i.e., a unity.
Yeah, when the atoms when formed into particular molecules and molecules into particular structures, the function in an animate fashion.
The atoms that are you are alive somehow ; if they are not, then neither are you.
Same category error.
Making desperate appeals to “molecules” or “structures” or “arrangements” or even “systems” is just evading the problem by adding artificial layers to atomic theory: it’s all just atoms, Muze. Atoms that, somehow, in you, are alive : because if they are not, then neither are you and neither is anything else.
Again with the same category error. An atom as part of a structure may be animate. If that structure breaks down, it may become inanimate.

I’d suggest discovering the source of your logical errors before continuing.
 
They use substance theory to explain a miraculous change. This is an example of faith seeking understanding. But we are still talking about something that does not correspond with the regular course of nature. It is, by definition, supernatural. And therefore not something that science can comment on.
the supernatural part of this is that the substance undergoes conversion. The “natural” claim is that this metaphysical substance exists to be converted. The “natural” claim is what is incompatible with modern science.
 
the supernatural part of this is that the substance undergoes conversion. The “natural” claim is that this metaphysical substance exists to be converted. The “natural” claim is what is incompatible with modern science.
Right. I see.

My understanding of substance theory is that:

1-A substance is any thing with properties.
2-Its properties can be intrinsic to that thing (substance): such as quantity, and quality
3-Its properties can be extrinsic to that thing (substance) in relation to other things (substances): These include: relation (for example, comparing the properties of one substance with the properties of another, or how one property of one substance affects the properties of another), Action (for example, is the substance moving or heating up, etc…), Reception of an action (for example, is the substance being heated by some other substance), Place (For example, the substance tree is in a certain location, Orientation (the substance tree is situated in a certain place within an environment, Environment, the ground and the air and other plants around the substance tree, time, measuring duration of change.

Any substance has the potential to become another substance. To exchange one form (if I understand it correctly, that means one set of properties) with the form of another substance (another set of properties).

The trick with transubstantiation is that the substance changes, but the properties (form) do not appear to change (in any scientifically observable way). This is a statement of faith using the terms of substance theory.

Substance theory is just another way of talking about reality. It does not contradict science, any more than the fact that we are all made up of atoms change the fact that we are different things and beings on the macro level. Physics does not invalidate chemistry, and chemistry does not invalidate biology, and biology does not invalidate the idea that we are things (substances).

God bless,
Ut
 
Right. I see.

My understanding of substance theory is that:

1-A substance is any thing with properties.
2-Its properties can be intrinsic to that thing (substance): such as quantity, and quality
3-Its properties can be extrinsic to that thing (substance) in relation to other things (substances): These include: relation (for example, comparing the properties of one substance with the properties of another, or how one property of one substance affects the properties of another), Action (for example, is the substance moving or heating up, etc…), Reception of an action (for example, is the substance being heated by some other substance), Place (For example, the substance tree is in a certain location, Orientation (the substance tree is situated in a certain place within an environment, Environment, the ground and the air and other plants around the substance tree, time, measuring duration of change.

Any substance has the potential to become another substance. To exchange one form (if I understand it correctly, that means one set of properties) with the form of another substance (another set of properties).

The trick with transubstantiation is that the substance changes, but the properties (form) do not appear to change (in any scientifically observable way). This is a statement of faith using the terms of substance theory.

Substance theory is just another way of talking about reality. It does not contradict science, any more than the fact that we are all made up of atoms change the fact that we are different things and beings on the macro level. Physics does not invalidate chemistry, and chemistry does not invalidate biology, and biology does not invalidate the idea that we are things (substances).

God bless,
Ut
That doesn’t address the problem. Substance theory as used by Trent to define transubstantiation is incompatible with modern science…
The stronger, incompatibilitist interpretation is that Aristotle did not believe that the behaviour of complex entities followed from the laws that govern their parts or their matter. (Gotthelf 1987, Robinson 1983) By contrast, the behaviour of the matter is influenced by what it is the matter of. The nature of the matter places restrictions on what the enmattered thing can do—an animal can only be made from living tissue, not of stone or fire—but exactly how that matter behaves depends on the substantial form present in it. The substantial form plays, therefore, an essential role, not merely in certain kinds of scientific explanation, but by being a fundamental efficient cause in its own right.
Thus, you can believe in transubstantiation, or embrace modern science, but not both. The RCC finds itself opposed to science. Again.
 
Now what about non-physical things? How do they fit in to the ideas of substance theory?

Something that cannot change (a substance that cannot change its properties) would have no ability to be other than it is. God fits into this category. He is pure actuality with no possibility of potentiality. This contradicts the very idea of physicality, that all physical things can change. In fact, according to Aristotle and Aquinas, all physical things, because they can and do change, depend on such a being for their very existence.

This is a metaphysical assertion based on substance theory and observations about the nature of change and flux in the physical universe. But science points to this necessity.

God bless,
Ut
 
That doesn’t address the problem. Substance theory as used by Trent to define transubstantiation is incompatible with modern science…

Thus, you can believe in transubstantiation, or embrace modern science, but not both. The RCC finds itself opposed to science. Again.
Well any miracle is a breaking of the rules of science. I believe in science, but I also believe in miracles.

[edit] Actually, as C.S. Lewis states in his book on Miracle, there are various classes of miracles, some of which do not break the rules of science, but others that do.

Do you?

God bless,
Ut
 
Well any miracle is a breaking of the rules of science. I believe in science, but I also believe in miracles.
If transubstantiation actually claimed that this “substance” that is incompatible modern science was miraculously brought into being and THEN converted, you might have a leg to stand on.

But it doesn’t.
[edit] Actually, as C.S. Lewis states in his book on Miracle, there are various classes of miracles, some of which do not break the rules of science, but others that do.
Absolutely agree. But that’s not what Trent claims.
 
Now what about non-physical things? How do they fit in to the ideas of substance theory?

Something that cannot change (a substance that cannot change its properties) would have no ability to be other than it is. God fits into this category. He is pure actuality with no possibility of potentiality. This contradicts the very idea of physicality, that all physical things can change. In fact, according to Aristotle and Aquinas, all physical things, because they can and do change, depend on such a being for their very existence.
Since substance theory doesn’t really work for the material world, it would be difficult at best to claim it exists somehow for non-physical things.
This is a metaphysical assertion based on substance theory and observations about the nature of change and flux in the physical universe. But science points to this necessity.
Well, stating part of the reasons that substance theory exists doesn’t excuse it from its incompatibility with modern science.
 
If transubstantiation actually claimed that this “substance” that is incompatible modern science was miraculously brought into being and THEN converted, you might have a leg to stand on.

But it doesn’t.

Absolutely agree. But that’s not what Trent claims.
Just so that we are on the same page, can you confirm that this is the quote from Trent you are basing this on?
“…denieth, that, in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ; but saith that He is only therein as in a sign, or in figure, or virtue” and anyone who "saith, that, in the sacred and holy sacrament of the Eucharist, the substance of the bread and wine remains conjointly with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and denieth that wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood - the species only of the bread and wine remaining - which conversion indeed the Catholic Church most aptly calls Transubstantiation, let him be anathema.
God bless,
Ut
 
Since substance theory doesn’t really work for the material world, it would be difficult at best to claim it exists somehow for non-physical things.

Well, stating part of the reasons that substance theory exists doesn’t excuse it from its incompatibility with modern science.
OK, but you dismissed my earlier post describing my interpretation of substance theory by stating it does not agree with Trent. But now you are saying that substance theory does not agree with modern science. Maybe you could take a look at my post (281) again from the standpoint of modern science to tell me where I’m off base.

No rush. I’m really interested in hearing your thoughts about it.

God bless,
Ut
 
OK, but you dismissed my earlier post describing my interpretation of substance theory by stating it does not agree with Trent. But now you are saying that substance theory does not agree with modern science. Maybe you could take a look at my post (281) again from the standpoint of modern science to tell me where I’m off base.

No rush. I’m really interested in hearing your thoughts about it.

God bless,
Ut
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10862450&postcount=282

You’ve done a nice job of trying to emphasize other parts of substance theory, but what you fail to address is where substance theory is actually incompatible with modern science. I provide the quote that establishes this.
 
Again with the same category error. An atom as part of a structure may be animate. If that structure breaks down, it may become inanimate.
This is deeply confused, Muze.

You’re running around in circles and avoiding the logical difficulties of your position. You honestly think there’s a fundamental difference in the nature of inert atoms simply because they have binded together.

Do atoms, when they have formed a bond, notwithstanding always remain, in and of themselves inert protons, neutrons and electrons? According to theory, of course they do. Its mass or energy quantitatively increases but the fundamental nature of the protons, neutrons and electrons does not change in the least. That, ostensibly, never changes. What I am pointing out to you is that this theory does not amount to an explanation of the nature of living things : life that manages to be and behave as a unity distinct and irreducible to its material composition.

For example, if you someone were to ask me what you are, I would not give them a laundry list of chemical substances and even add the quantities. I would not then add height, shape, colour, organizational structure, etc.; if I did, the person inquiring of you couldn’t even be sure you are alive; perhaps you are a recent corpse, which has the same atomic structure and chemical make-up as the man who was, not too long ago, very much alive. You seem to think living organisms are just really fancy material constructions like a building or a computer and have an equivalent unity: when some fundamental part of the building’s structure collapses the whole structure or system falls or fails with it and is reduced to rubble. Living things, however, are this but something more: they surpass their material composition in that they form a unity that goes beyond the merely material: they are actively seeking the realization of certain innate goals such as, e.g., getting food and procreating. Atoms do not seek to get food or procreate. You can’t reduce these things to the atoms themselves. The matter comes and goes (you consume food to replenish your body and discard waste) but the life remains. The matter revolves, so to speak, but the life-principle remains the same and constant: it remains one single organism that is constant in spite of underlying material alterations or changes. The material principle in living things is subordinated to the life-principle that animates the matter (or atoms) and makes it a single, living organism. When you look at a single cell organism it is impossible not to see that all of the matter in that organism is subordinated to the organism’s, so to speak, mission or purposes ; not the other way around. This is even more obvious in any animal. Life adds something to the matter.

And animate means, strictly speaking, alive or living; certainly at least that is what I use it to mean. Aristotle’s De Anima, after all, is about the soul. Every living thing “functions” in an “animated” way, but you are so used to confounding these two things that you don’t realize that even each single atom, considered individually, “functions” according to its “structure”; that is no feat. Every single material thing “functions” structurally, but not all material things are “animate”. The “animate” is above the inanimate. It is a higher order of thing altogether. Your thinking would reduce organisms to robots, which “function” in an “animated” way too. Various parts of the a robot (in fact all of them) may be replaced over time: it consumes energy and in the process produces some kind of waste. Robots are not, however, alive. They are not seeking anything at all. A computer program that scripts the machine to do certain things at certain times is not natural nor does it make the robot, as a whole, something that is consciously goal-seeking, let alone on account of an innate nature that of itself is actively seeking its own realization. No doubt technological advancements provide us with things that, owing to their complexity, suffice at times for helpful or useful analogies for describing the whole world or living things; however, the world and living things especially are not reducible to these artificial products anymore than 16th century mechanists were justified in believing that the whole world and everything in it really was reducible to the awesomeness of mechanical clocks or clockwork. Today, we would laugh at such a ridiculous over-simplification of the universe; our children will almost certianly laugh that we tried to reduce the world to the complexity of a CPU or even an advanced robot.
 
This is deeply confused, Muze.
That often happens when you commit serious logical fallacies.
You honestly think there’s a fundamental difference in the nature of inert atoms simply because they have binded together.
I’ve not made that claim. But “animate” or “inanimate” is not a part of the nature of atoms. That’s pretty much the whole error of your argument.
Do atoms, when they have formed a bong, notwithstanding always remain, in and of themselves, inert protons, neutrons and electrons? According to theory, of course they do. Its mass or energy quantitatively increases but the fundamental nature of the protons, neutrons and electrons does not change in the least. That, ostensibly, never changes. What I am pointing out to you is that this theory does not amount to an explanation of the nature of living things : life that manages to be and behave as a unity distinct and irreducible to its material composition.
And you would be incorrect. The unity of a living being (with the exception of humans who have a spirit) is found in the (relatively) common purpose of its chemistry. A dog can literally be reduced to the materials it is composed of. We don’t usually talk about dogs in those terms because that level is too granular to be useful to, say, veterinarians or zoologists. But chemically, a dog is simply a very organized group of atoms.
if you someone were to ask me what you are, I would not give them a laundry list of chemical substances and even add the quantities. I would not then add height, shape, colour, organizational structure, etc.; if I did, the person inquiring of you couldn’t even be sure you are alive; perhaps you are a recent corpse, which has the same atomic structure and chemical make-up as the man who was, not too long ago, very much alive.
But that is only because the chemical composition isn’t useful to answering the question. It doesn’t make it untrue.
You seem to think living organisms are just really fancy material constructions like a building or a computer and have an equivalent unity: when some fundamental part of the building’s structure collapses the whole structure or system falls or fails with it and is reduced to rubble.
Or at least some level of dysfunction. That’s true.
Living things, however, are this but something more: they surpass their material composition in that they form a unity that goes beyond the merely material: they are actively seeking the realization of certain innate goals such as, e.g., getting food and procreating.
And these are all chemical reactions that happen in the body of the living thing. Again, it’s reducible to chemistry. (Exempting humans, of course)
Atoms do not seek to get food or procreate. You can’t reduce these things to the atoms themselves.
Umm… yes I can. And your assertion is unsupported.
The matter comes and goes (you consume food to replenish your body and discard waste) but the life remains. The matter revolves, so to speak, but the life-principle remains the same and constant: it remains one single organism that is constant in spite of underlying material alterations or changes. The material principle in living things is subordinated to the life-principle that animates the matter (or atoms) and makes it a single, living organism. When you look at a single cell organism it is impossible not to see that all of the matter in that organism is subordinated to the organism’s, so to speak, mission or purposes ; not the other way around. This is even more obvious in any animal. Life adds something to the matter.
That’s a nice claim, but that doesn’t fit with scientific reality.
And animate means, strictly speaking, alive or living; certainly at least that is what I use it to mean. Aristotle’s De Anima, after all, is about the soul.
And Aristotle is wrong.
Every living thing “functions” in an “animated” way, but you are so used to confounding these two things that you don’t realize that even each single atom, considered individually, “functions” according to its “structure”; that is no feat. Every single material thing “functions” structurally, but not all material things are “animate”. The “animate” is above the inanimate.
You’re starting to sound like Plato. Even Aristotle disagreed with Plato.
It is a higher order of thing altogether. Your thinking would reduce organisms to robots, which “function” in an “animated” way too. Various parts of the a robot (in fact all of them) may be replaced over time: it consumes energy and in the process produces some kind of waste. Robots are not, however, alive. They are not seeking anything at all. A computer program that scripts the machine to do certain things at certain times is not natural nor does it make the robot, as a whole, something that is consciously goal-seeking, let alone on account of an innate nature that of itself is actively seeking its own realization. No doubt technological advancements provide us with things that, owing to their complexity, suffice at times for helpful or useful analogies for describing the whole or living things; however, the world and living things especially are not reducible to these artificial products anymore than 16th century mechanists were justified in believing that the whole world and everything in it really was reducible to the awesomeness of mechanical clocks or clockwork. Today, we would laugh at such a ridiculous over-simplification of the universe; our children will almost certianly laugh that we tried to reduce the world to the complexity of a CPU or even an advanced robot.
Again, a nice speech. But you’ve provided zero support for your claims, and you stand opposed to modern science.
 
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10862450&postcount=282

You’ve done a nice job of trying to emphasize other parts of substance theory, but what you fail to address is where substance theory is actually incompatible with modern science. I provide the quote that establishes this.
You are being hit by multiple posts and having multiple conversations at the same time, so I understand why you only have time for a few lines. But I don’t see how the post you provided invalidates substance theory…

I would agree though that the fundamental material science behind a lot of Aristotle’s philosophy has changed. Our knowledge of the material world has really evolved. But does that invalidate all of Aristotle’s thinking? (I will be disappointed if you simply say yes, but I will understand).

God bless,
Ut
 
You are being hit by multiple posts and having multiple conversations at the same time, so I understand why you only have time for a few lines. But I don’t see how the post you provided invalidates substance theory…
Sorry, I forgot the intro to the previous paragraph, which sets up my quote:
It would be* universally agreed by scholars* that substantial forms are real in the sense that they play an irreducible and ineliminable explanatory role in the behaviour of the things in which they are the form. There are two interpretations of what Aristotle meant by this, *one of which seems compatible with modern science and the other not. *
The stronger, *incompatibilitist *interpretation is that Aristotle did not believe that the behaviour of complex entities followed from the laws that govern their parts or their matter. (Gotthelf 1987, Robinson 1983) By contrast, the behaviour of the matter is influenced by what it is the matter of. The nature of the matter places restrictions on what the enmattered thing can do—an animal can only be made from living tissue, not of stone or fire—but exactly how that matter behaves depends on the substantial form present in it. The substantial form plays, therefore, an essential role, not merely in certain kinds of scientific explanation, but by being a fundamental efficient cause in its own right.
(The compatiblist view reduces substance theory to merely an explanatory role. For Trent, this means that nothing remains of substance that is actionable or able to be converted.)
I would agree though that the fundamental material science behind a lot of Aristotle’s philosophy has changed. Out knowledge of the material world has really evolved. But does that invalidate all of Aristotle’s thinking?
Not sure about all of it. Aristotle was not an atomist, so any claims he makes about the physical world would be very suspect indeed, and substance theory does make claims as to how the substance influences the physical (via the substantial form). And does so in a way that is incompatible with modern science.
 
Sorry, I forgot the intro to the previous paragraph, which sets up my quote:

(The compatiblist view reduces substance theory to merely an explanatory role. For Trent, this means that nothing remains of substance that is actionable or able to be converted.)

Not sure about all of it. Aristotle was not an atomist, so any claims he makes about the physical world would be very suspect indeed, and substance theory does make claims as to how the substance influences the physical (via the substantial form). And does so in a way that is incompatible with modern science.
Interesting. Thanks for clarifying. I’ll take a closer look at the link you provided in your original post on this and perhaps respond back later on.

God bless,
Ut
 
Quote:=Richca
There is more to reality than to say that all things in the universe are simply an accidental conglomeration of atoms, molecules and sub atomic particles.
But there isn’t anything more to say about the bread and wine than the “accidental” conglomeration of atoms, molecules and particles. That’s exactly the point.
Your point leads to some absurd conclusions. Your claiming that the ultimate reality of things are atoms. Of course, we could say that the ultimate reality of things are not atoms but electrons, protons and nuetrons. We could go further for scientists say these small particles are composed of quarks, leptons, other particles and possibly super strings. And further, there are electrical or electromagnetic forces involved. However, for arguments sake, let’s just claim that the atoms are the fundamental reality. In Aristotle’s terms, atoms are the substance of things.

In the above quote, you claim that the bread and wine, and I presume we could extend this to all things, are simply an accidental conglomeration of atoms, molecules and particles. Consequently, a highly complex organism such as a human body is an accident. Do you see the absurdity here?

If you were to take a walk in the woods and found a watch, would you say that the parts of the watch accidentally came together, and the watch itself is an accident? Atomists might say so and you appear to be claiming the same thing. This is one reason Aristotle rejected the atomists theory because it doesn’t stand to reason.
 
Yeah, they thought matter was made up of earth, wind, fire, and water. They lacked the knowledge of the material world to understand how atoms form molecules, so they claims that some immaterial substance was the fundamental efficient cause and determined how the subject behaved.
Aristotle made no claim that some immaterial substance is the substance of physical things. If your going to argue against Aristotle’s substance theory at least argue against what Aristotle actually said or taught. An immaterial substance would be an intelligence such as the human soul, angels or God. Aristotle made no claim that rocks, trees, and ants have intelligence.
 
You’re selling the definition of “substance” short.
I somewhat agree. I am trying to reduce the complexity of the subject so that you can grasp the concept as it is truly meant. You keep thinking that Substance has some material component to it, but it does not and cannot.

AugustSon & Riccha are trying to get you to realize that there is something to us that is more than simply atoms. I think it is a mistake because you do not appear to be a reductionist, but your method of “refuting” Substance theory is fairly reductionist.

I think the approach should be more simple: what makes a quark a quark? Is it a field? Is it how it behaves alone? Or though interactions with other quarks via the strong force? Or something else?

I believe that this question (or at least similar) has been asked of you, but completely ignored.
It is still part of the subject. In fact, Aristotle clearly states that the substance is the fundamental efficient cause of the subject, and determines how it behaves.
Actually, if I recall correctly, Aristotle says that Substance is the formal cause of a subject, but not exclusively so.
Short of this, there is simply no basis to claim that an “immaterial” substance exists beyond the concept that gives description to the subject. And that cannot undergo conversion.
Without resorting to science (since that only can cover the material and we are clearly talking about the immaterial), can you prove either of these statements?
So, if you’re going to simply take a fidiest view of “substance” then I guess that’s OK, but I don’t think you can expect anyone to take that view seriously.
I actually would argue that you are taking the fideist approach here: you have been advocating experimentalism/sciencism over rational & critical thinking. Your faith has been separated from true Reasoning.

But that ad hominem aside, Reason is why there is such a concept as ousia in the first place.

And you still did not answer the question: how can science prove or disprove anything of the immaterial?
 
Substance is being.

Upon further reflection and reading, I have a few more thoughts on this statement.
First of all, I think we can safely say that being implies existence in one way or another. Now in our experience of the physical world, we don’t see existence itself, we see things such as substances that exist. Existence appears to be a property or something that things have. Aquinas had at his disposal two terms from latin that he made use of when writing about being. “Ens” a noun designating a being and “esse” a verb designating the very act-of-being or the act-of-existing.
Now, no created substance is its own existence. It is only God of whom we can say that his substance or essence is his being or existence. All created substances have their existence caused, i.e., by God and these created substances participate in existence. Consequently, Aquinas says that that which belongs to a thing by participation is not that things substance. Being stands in relation to created substances as act to potency.
If I were to ask you to show me being, what would you do? What could
 
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