Aristotle East and West

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I read this book a few weeks ago

rgs.uky.edu/odyssey/summer06/bookend.html

I’ve been reading the “Sainthood of Gregory Palamas” thread (which has been very educational!). But certain points can go around and around…

Anyway this book does point out the philisophical mindset that is behind the differences in Eastern and Western theology.
 
Dear brother Addai,

I read the link you gave. I was looking forward to a good presentation and initially thought of buying the book, but once I read the following, I knew it would be biased:
The easterners, both pagan philosophers who were also developing the thought of Plato and Aristotle, as well as Christian philosophers, thought of God as having an energy that can be shared with human beings.They thought of this as a way of knowing God that’s different from intellectual knowledge. In the West, because of differences in language, this meaning of the word never developed. So in the West there was a more exclusive emphasis on knowing God through intellectual means.
From what I have read of Latin soteriology, even from the early Latin Fathers such as Augustine, divinization - sharing in the Holiness of God - was always and is THE normative belief in the Latin Church. The last sentence specifically - “in the West there was a more exclusive emphasis on knowing God through intellectual means” - simply does not coincide with my reading of the literature from the Saints of the Latin Church.

True enough, the meaning of the word “energeia” did not develop into the theological concept that is present among the Eastern and Oriental Churches, but that does not mean that the theological concept itself (i.e., of sharing in the divine) was not there in the Latin Church. For him to assume that “knowing God” was primarily intellectual instead of spiritual in the Latin Church demonstrates to me, at least, an unacceptable bias.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Dear brother Addai,

I read the link you gave. I was looking forward to a good presentation and initially thought of buying the book, but once I read the following, I knew it would be biased:

From what I have read of Latin soteriology, even from the early Latin Fathers such as Augustine, divinization - sharing in the Holiness of God - was always and is THE normative belief in the Latin Church. The last sentence specifically - “in the West there was a more exclusive emphasis on knowing God through intellectual means” - simply does not coincide with my reading of the literature from the Saints of the Latin Church.

True enough, the meaning of the word “energeia” did not develop into the theological concept that is present among the Eastern and Oriental Churches, but that does not mean that the theological concept itself (i.e., of sharing in the divine) was not there in the Latin Church. For him to assume that “knowing God” was primarily intellectual instead of spiritual in the Latin Church demonstrates to me, at least, an unacceptable bias.

Blessings,
Marduk
You know I think the book is somewhat biased. That review I think makes it seem more then it really is but I used it, because their wasn’t a lot of lengthy reviews of it on the web. I would have linked to Amazon which would have, but I thought the 100$ asking price on the used copy they have would scare folks off, especially since it can be purchased for a fraction of the cost elsewhere!

I originally learned about it through my wife, who frequently reads this EO theology Blog (Energetic Procession).

energeticprocession.wordpress.com/

The main blogger there is a theology/philosophy gee who sometimes spars with Catholics. But the author of the book itself I think tries to be fair even though he admits himself as sympathizing more with the East then the West. Also it’s really almost impossible to not have something be biased one way or another as far as being a human is concerned.

I think the book is worth reading. You do understand a few things while reading it. Besides the usual essense and energy thing that most of us have been exposed too, it does cover some of the nitty gritty of the early philsophers and theologians that make East vs. West thought. And one thing it does really well is show how the forms of Aristotean thought that would inspire Neoplatonism and the western Stoics that would influence in Theology became simplified (some might say over simplified) that would lead to some of the essence and energy, philioque problems later.

OF course my wife was pushing me to read it because she was hoping beyond hope that it would deconvert me from looking to the EC. Because I think she greatly fears Latinization and overly exagerates many common Catholicphobic fears. But reading it, only made me appreciate some of the subtle nuances that cause confusion in these areas. And strangely enough it made me lean even more in being Eastern Catholic (Because it also reaffirmed that some differences are often semantic and I’ve beem seeing in some areas where I think some Orthodox can go out of there way to exaggerate every perceived problem for dramatic affect. And this actually makes me sympathize less with them since they seem unreasonable).
 
I’ve done extensive studies of St. Thomas Aquinas at my local Dominican parish (he’s my favorite Latin theologian bar none), so if you ever have any questions about how Latin theology dealt with the “participation in the Divine”, I’d be happy to help in whatever humble way I can.

One thing is certain: Latin theology has always stated that “knowledge by participation”, or Sanctifying Grace, or whatever term you might think of, is infinitely greater and deeper than intellectual knowledge of God. As one of my Dominican instructors put it: “an uneducated peasant grandmother who knows God through Grace and participating in the Eucharist knows Him infinitely better than an educated theologian who is not in Grace”. He said this in reference to St. Thomas Aquinas’ teaching on the knowledge of Grace.

Peace and God bless!
 
I’ve done extensive studies of St. Thomas Aquinas at my local Dominican parish (he’s my favorite Latin theologian bar none), so if you ever have any questions about how Latin theology dealt with the “participation in the Divine”, I’d be happy to help in whatever humble way I can.

One thing is certain: Latin theology has always stated that “knowledge by participation”, or Sanctifying Grace, or whatever term you might think of, is infinitely greater and deeper than intellectual knowledge of God. As one of my Dominican instructors put it: “an uneducated peasant grandmother who knows God through Grace and participating in the Eucharist knows Him infinitely better than an educated theologian who is not in Grace”. He said this in reference to St. Thomas Aquinas’ teaching on the knowledge of Grace.

Peace and God bless!
Thanks Ghosty!
 
I very much enjoyed the first article especially. I’ve never read Bradshaw’s work (and I likely never will, though I wouldn’t object if it’s easily available to me), but his conclusions about the relation between Eastern theology and Western theology mirrored my own almost exactly. About the only thing I would disagree with is his seemingly (and brief, and almost insignificant) negative reference to the train of thought in some Latin theological approaches that emphasizes “relational” definition of Divine Persons.

The review is definitely a good summary of the “real difficulty” between Byzantine and Latin theology, in my view.

Peace and God bless!
 
Ghosty et. al.
Bradshaw has some of his articles posted on his website. They are good reads and easily accesible if you want a primer on his thought.

God Bless.

P.S.
I have not the time to go though the thread in detail at the moment.
 
Ghosty et. al.
Bradshaw has some of his articles posted on his website. They are good reads and easily accesible if you want a primer on his thought.

God Bless.

P.S.
I have not the time to go though the thread in detail at the moment.
I might read them if I have time. From what I can tell, though, his work doesn’t appeal to me and I have strong disagreements with him in many areas (which I apparently share with some Orthodox thinkers).

Thanks for the heads up!

Peace and God bless!
 
An interesting point from the first linked article that reviews Bradshaw:
There is only one other way that I know of that will allow Palamas’s theology to make sense in philosophical terms, and that is to employ the Scotistic distinctio formalis a parte rei, whereby the various divine attributes, such as wisdom, love, joy, beauty, intellect, etc., are properties both real (and thus eo ipso distinct) and inseparable, owing to the divine infinity, which does not allow of any limitation of any divine attribute. Since infinity is a mode of a property and not a property, wisdom in God is not fundamentally different in creatures, except that it is experienced by the latter in the mode of finitude and by way of imitation (created grace) and quasi-formal causality (uncreated grace). The essence is then the collection of formally distinct, really identical divine attributes, which is imparticipable in the mode of infinity, but participable ad extra as explained above. I do not see anything in this account that would jeopardize the understanding Palamas was attempting to explicate during the Hesychast controversy.
This is exactly the distinction that is used in Latin theology to differentiate between the Divine Essence and our sharing in the Divine Essence (since Latin theology doesn’t explicitely make the energy/essence distinction). Basically, when we participate in pure, simple Divinity by Grace, we do so according to our mode and manner of existing which is composite and with distinctions. God, on the other hand, “possesses Divinity” simply and infinitely, and also the “Divine Existence” (so to speak) is the same as the Divine Essence; this is why we can say “God is Love (Charity)”, but that we possess Charity. We have the same “thing” as God, directly and really, but according to a different mode (we receive, and are composite; God is, and is simple).

To put it another way, Latin theology makes the distinction between Essence and Energies (and between the different Divine Energies) on the side of creatures, not on the side of God. In God the “energies” are simple, and one, and infinite. In us, when Divinity is shared with us, they are distinct not because they lack anything, but because we are composite things by definition. We don’t, and can’t, exist in pure simplicity without being identical with God; at the very least our essence and our existence (or being, or actuality, to use Latin terms) are distinct, to say nothing of the distinctions between our various “parts” or powers. On the other hand, God is purely “simple” (without composition, not made up of parts), and to say “God is God” and “God exists” is to say the same thing, so even His essence is not distinct from His existence (hence “I Am that Am”).

An analogy I often use is that of invisible white light and the colors we see. White light fills up the darkness of space, but we only see it when it hits something and “part” of it is reflected; we see blue, or red, or green, or some other single color. In white light, however, these colors are simple and one, with no distinction until they are received by an object and reflected individually. Interestingly they are also unknown and invisible when in this “pure” form, kind of like God’s simplicity which is incomprehensible to us.

Since Latin theology makes the distinction in this way, it doesn’t need to make an overt distinction between Essence and Energies in order to explain how we can share in Divinity without becoming the same as the Trinity.

As to the “created” and “uncreated Grace”, which is often brought up as a difference between East and West, the terms (as used in Latin theology) are vastly misunderstood and misapplied by just about every Eastern writer I’ve ever read.

In Latin theology, “created Grace” doesn’t refer to imitation, but to the actual and real sharing of Divinity with creatures, while “uncreated Grace” refers to the eternal “graciousness” of God, or predestining and providence. The sharing of Divinity is called “created” not because it’s not a share of the uncreated, but because the sharing itself is “created”, made to happen within the creature. Since this sharing has a beginning, and is not made from within the natural powers of the creature (it’s not natural to a creature to be Divine, by definition) it is “created” (it comes to exist from nothing). The Latin theology understands this as parallel to St. Paul saying “we are new creatures in Christ”; we are made Divine.

Since grace, in Latin, can also refer to the disposition of the one giving (being gracious), and not merely to the gift, the term “uncreated Grace” is used to refer to God’s eternal disposition to give Himself to creatures. It does not refer to what St. Gregory Palamas would define as “uncreated Grace”, which is simply Divinity.

Sometimes the term “uncreated Grace” can also refer to the Holy Spirit Himself as a Divine Person, since He is both uncreated and the “eternal Gift” of the Father, even without a created receiver. Us receiving the Holy Spirit, and therefore sharing in Divinity by Grace, would always be called “created Grace” in order to distinguish orthodox belief from any Pelagian ideas (we’re made Holy and Divine by God’s Grace, not simply naturally Holy and Divine with only the wake up call of Jesus’ example to point the way for our development).

Long and technical, I know, but I hope it clears up some things!

Peace and God bless!
 
Dear brother Ghosty,
An interesting point from the first linked article that reviews Bradshaw:

This is exactly the distinction that is used in Latin theology to differentiate between the Divine Essence and our sharing in the Divine Essence (since Latin theology doesn’t explicitely make the energy/essence distinction). Basically, when we participate in pure, simple Divinity by Grace, we do so according to our mode and manner of existing which is composite and with distinctions. God, on the other hand, “possesses Divinity” simply and infinitely, and also the “Divine Existence” (so to speak) is the same as the Divine Essence; this is why we can say “God is Love (Charity)”, but that we possess Charity. We have the same “thing” as God, directly and really, but according to a different mode (we receive, and are composite; God is, and is simple).

To put it another way, Latin theology makes the distinction between Essence and Energies (and between the different Divine Energies) on the side of creatures, not on the side of God. In God the “energies” are simple, and one, and infinite. In us, when Divinity is shared with us, they are distinct not because they lack anything, but because we are composite things by definition. We don’t, and can’t, exist in pure simplicity without being identical with God; at the very least our essence and our existence (or being, or actuality, to use Latin terms) are distinct, to say nothing of the distinctions between our various “parts” or powers. On the other hand, God is purely “simple” (without composition, not made up of parts), and to say “God is God” and “God exists” is to say the same thing, so even His essence is not distinct from His existence (hence “I Am that Am”).

An analogy I often use is that of invisible white light and the colors we see. White light fills up the darkness of space, but we only see it when it hits something and “part” of it is reflected; we see blue, or red, or green, or some other single color. In white light, however, these colors are simple and one, with no distinction until they are received by an object and reflected individually. Interestingly they are also unknown and invisible when in this “pure” form, kind of like God’s simplicity which is incomprehensible to us.

Since Latin theology makes the distinction in this way, it doesn’t need to make an overt distinction between Essence and Energies in order to explain how we can share in Divinity without becoming the same as the Trinity.

As to the “created” and “uncreated Grace”, which is often brought up as a difference between East and West, the terms (as used in Latin theology) are vastly misunderstood and misapplied by just about every Eastern writer I’ve ever read.

In Latin theology, “created Grace” doesn’t refer to imitation, but to the actual and real sharing of Divinity with creatures, while “uncreated Grace” refers to the eternal “graciousness” of God, or predestining and providence. The sharing of Divinity is called “created” not because it’s not a share of the uncreated, but because the sharing itself is “created”, made to happen within the creature. Since this sharing has a beginning, and is not made from within the natural powers of the creature (it’s not natural to a creature to be Divine, by definition) it is “created” (it comes to exist from nothing). The Latin theology understands this as parallel to St. Paul saying “we are new creatures in Christ”; we are made Divine.

Since grace, in Latin, can also refer to the disposition of the one giving (being gracious), and not merely to the gift, the term “uncreated Grace” is used to refer to God’s eternal disposition to give Himself to creatures. It does not refer to what St. Gregory Palamas would define as “uncreated Grace”, which is simply Divinity.

Sometimes the term “uncreated Grace” can also refer to the Holy Spirit Himself as a Divine Person, since He is both uncreated and the “eternal Gift” of the Father, even without a created receiver. Us receiving the Holy Spirit, and therefore sharing in Divinity by Grace, would always be called “created Grace” in order to distinguish orthodox belief from any Pelagian ideas (we’re made Holy and Divine by God’s Grace, not simply naturally Holy and Divine with only the wake up call of Jesus’ example to point the way for our development).

Long and technical, I know, but I hope it clears up some things!

Peace and God bless!
Thank you for this explanation. The Latin Church’s understanding (if I understand you correctly) of the distinction is the same one that exists among the Eastern/Oriental Fathers, from St. John Damascene to the Cappadocians. These early Fathers understood the Energy of God not as distinctive within God, but only as distinctive from the perspective of man, to help man understand (limited though it might be) the infinite Godhead. IOW, God is indeed and actually simple. Essence and Energy is not the reality of God, but the language of man as creatures trying to comprehend the Godhead.

This is one of the differences between Oriental and Eastern theologies. Though Orientals use the language of Essence and Energies, we do not impose that distinction WITHIN the Godhead. Thus, Orientals, unlike our Eastern brethren, would not normatively ever say “The Essence IS God” and “The Energy IS God,” which was a development distinct within Eastern Orthodoxy in the Second millenium, for that would, from the view of Orientals introduce an artificial distinction within the Godhead itself. And the only distinction that Orientals (which would include the Assyrian Tradition, brother Antgaria’s own) accept within the Godhead is the distinction of Persons, and nothing else.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Dear brother Ghosty,

Thank you for this explanation. The Latin Church’s understanding (if I understand you correctly) of the distinction is the same one that exists among the Eastern/Oriental Fathers, from St. John Damascene to the Cappadocians. These early Fathers understood the Energy of God not as distinctive within God, but only as distinctive from the perspective of man, to help man understand (limited though it might be) the infinite Godhead. IOW, God is indeed and actually simple. Essence and Energy is not the reality of God, but the language of man as creatures trying to comprehend the Godhead.

This is one of the differences between Oriental and Eastern theologies. Though Orientals use the language of Essence and Energies, we do not impose that distinction WITHIN the Godhead. Thus, Orientals, unlike our Eastern brethren, would not normatively ever say “The Essence IS God” and “The Energy IS God,” which was a development distinct within Eastern Orthodoxy in the Second millenium, for that would, from the view of Orientals introduce an artificial distinction within the Godhead itself. And the only distinction that Orientals (which would include the Assyrian Tradition, brother Antgaria’s own) accept within the Godhead is the distinction of Persons, and nothing else.

Blessings,
Marduk
As far as I was aware, the Energy simply signifies the extent to which we may know God, whereas the Essence signifies the extent to which we cannot know God. It is a distinction insofar as human perception is concerned, and has its usefulness in theological discussion in that it provides a linguistic framework in which to discuss God. There is, however, no actual Energy/Essence distinction in God himself. If one says the Energy is God, it is with the understanding that the Energy is not separate from the Essence. Rather, they are one and the same, only appearing to be different due to the limitations caused by our inability to comprehend one who is infinite. Both “The Energy is God” and “The Essence is God” mean the same thing. The Eastern Orthodox also believe that the only actually division within the Godhead is the distinction of persons. I’ve never heard/read a opinion from the EO other than this.
 
Dear brother Zabdi,
As far as I was aware, the Energy simply signifies the extent to which we may know God, whereas the Essence signifies the extent to which we cannot know God. It is a distinction insofar as human perception is concerned, and has its usefulness in theological discussion in that it provides a linguistic framework in which to discuss God. There is, however, no actual Energy/Essence distinction in God himself. If one says the Energy is God, it is with the understanding that the Energy is not separate from the Essence. Rather, they are one and the same, only appearing to be different due to the limitations caused by our inability to comprehend one who is infinite. Both “The Energy is God” and “The Essence is God” mean the same thing. The Eastern Orthodox also believe that the only actually division within the Godhead is the distinction of persons. I’ve never heard/read a opinion from the EO other than this.
I would like to agree, and I would tend to agree. I have come to realize that there is a real difference between genuine Eastern Orthodoxy and the polemical brand that gets more advertisement.

I am blessed to hear of your Orthodox understanding of the Essence and Energy. However, as you may know, there is a polemic strand of Eastern Orthodoxy which seeks to use the Essence/Energy distinction as an argument in the Filioque controversy. My own Coptic Tradition does not Traditionally entertain the theological back-and-forth that goes on between Easterns and Westerns regarding Filioque (the Coptic argument is limited mostly, if not entirely, to the textual addition to the Creed).

I have always protested the Eastern Orthodox polemical use of the Essence/Energy distinction against Filioque as an erroneous development of thought on the teaching. I have heard and read EO polemicists assert that the source of the Latin error on Filioque is its lack of acceptance of the Essence/Energy distinction. These polemicists (not apologists) claim that what proceeds through the Son is ONLY the Energy, and not the Essence. That rhetoric definitely creates a dichotomy WITHIN the Godhead that is erroneous at best, and heterodox at worst. The Essence/Energies distinction should not even come into consideration in the debate regarding Filioque. In their desire to create stumbling blocks to unity, and create division on matters where there is none, EO polemicists impose an unpatristic distinction WITHIN the Godhead itself.

I hope the discussion on Filioque vis-a-vis Essence/Energies in this thread stops here, and proceeds to a new thread for anyone interested in pursuing the matter (since we’re talking about Aristotle after all 😃 ).

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Dear brother Zabdi,

I would like to agree, and I would tend to agree. I have come to realize that there is a real difference between genuine Eastern Orthodoxy and the polemical brand that gets more advertisement.

I am blessed to hear of your Orthodox understanding of the Essence and Energy. However, as you may know, there is a polemic strand of Eastern Orthodoxy which seeks to use the Essence/Energy distinction as an argument in the Filioque controversy. My own Coptic Tradition does not Traditionally entertain the theological back-and-forth that goes on between Easterns and Westerns regarding Filioque (the Coptic argument is limited mostly, if not entirely, to the textual addition to the Creed).

I have always protested the Eastern Orthodox polemical use of the Essence/Energy distinction against Filioque as an erroneous development of thought on the teaching. I have heard and read EO polemicists assert that the source of the Latin error on Filioque is its lack of acceptance of the Essence/Energy distinction. These polemicists (not apologists) claim that what proceeds through the Son is ONLY the Energy, and not the Essence. That rhetoric definitely creates a dichotomy WITHIN the Godhead that is erroneous at best, and heterodox at worst. The Essence/Energies distinction should not even come into consideration in the debate regarding Filioque. In their desire to create stumbling blocks to unity, and create division on matters where there is none, EO polemicists impose an unpatristic distinction WITHIN the Godhead itself.

I hope the discussion on Filioque vis-a-vis Essence/Energies in this thread stops here, and proceeds to a new thread for anyone interested in pursuing the matter (since we’re talking about Aristotle after all 😃 ).

Blessings,
Marduk
Over the last few days I’ve come to realize that the E/E distinction IS perfectly logical and orthodox - and quite beautiful - Catholic understanding. I decided to pick up St John of Damascus, where he goes into this, and he must be solidly orthodox to be a Doctor of the Church!

The problem is that East and West use the term “substance” very differently, but not in a contradictory way. The problem is people on both sides don’t realize this. The Eastern idea of unknowable Essence, because creatures being finite cannot grasp it, is a concept taken for granted in the West. The West has always held that.

A crude example I came up with is trying to solve a math problem using addition or multiplication. The East uses addition while the West uses multiplication (which takes addition for granted).
 
Over the last few days I’ve come to realize that the E/E distinction IS perfectly logical and orthodox - and quite beautiful - Catholic understanding. I decided to pick up St John of Damascus, where he goes into this, and he must be solidly orthodox to be a Doctor of the Church!

The problem is that East and West use the term “substance” very differently, but not in a contradictory way. The problem is people on both sides don’t realize this. The Eastern idea of unknowable Essence, because creatures being finite cannot grasp it, is a concept taken for granted in the West. The West has always held that.

A crude example I came up with is trying to solve a math problem using addition or multiplication. The East uses addition while the West uses multiplication (which takes addition for granted).
Yay! Perhaps we have a convert to “Ghostyosophy”! :rotfl:

Seriously though, I’m certain that you’ve simply studied this issue in-depth and come to similar conclusions as I did when I did so, but it’s nice to have others on my side on this issue. 🙂

Peace and God bless!
 
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