Armenian Catholic Church

[Merrick]

Are the Armenian Catholic Church and the Armenian Orthodox Church in communion with one another?

 

[TRH1292]

No. The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are tragically not in full communion with each other.

 

[shlomo3amrooh]

possibly the greatest scandal of Christianity.

 

[cmodrmac]

the Orthodox Armenian Church is quite large-the Catholic Armenian Church quite small

 

[Nestor_kea]

Is there Armenian Orthodox Church?

In many languages Orthodox = Eastern Orthodox and Oriental = Oriental Orthodox and this Oriental never refered as Orthodox.

Church with official name Armenian Apostolic Church (has nothing to do with apostolic protestants, it referes to the apostles) is Oriental (Orthodox) so in communion with Syriac Orthodox (Orientals, not Antiochene Byzantines), Oriental Copts, Oriental Ethiopians, Oriental Eritreans, and Oriental Malankareses.

I guess you meant this Armenian Apostolic Church which is part of Oriental Orthodoxy and so put “Orthodox” into its name (in a way as it really is with the name of its Syriac sister church).

Yes, and there are also few Armenians who are Protestents from Apostolic branch so it could be a little misleading when trying to give/put them proper names.

 

[neokarny]

I regularly see Armenians referred to as “Armenian Orthodox,” or even just “Orthodox.” I don’t think it’s improper, and a Google search shows plenty of examples, even referring to themselves that way. Here’s an example.

 

[dzheremi]

All the Armenians I have ever met, who are all members of the Apostolic Church (not the Catholic or Protestant communities, which are very small), refer to themselves as “Armenian Orthodox”. Nestor Kea is being pedantic.

 

[Peter_J]

the Orthodox Armenian Church is quite large-the Catholic Armenian Church quite small

Actually, out of the Eastern Catholic Churches that have an Orthodox counterpart, most of them are very small. (The UGCC is an exception.)

 

[Aramis]

Actually, out of the Eastern Catholic Churches that have an Orthodox counterpart, most of them are very small. (The UGCC is an exception.)

THe Ruthenians are bigger than theirs (ACROD).

 

[SyroMalankara]

The Chaldeans are larger than the ACOE (although not “Orthodox”, although many will call themselves Assyrian Orthodox); the Syriac Catholics are about the same as the Syriac Orthodox, but if one includes the Maronites, much larger; the Syro-Malabarese eclipse the Chaldean-Syrians in India (although again, technically not “Orthodox” but ACOE).

 

[Peter_J]

THe Ruthenians are bigger than theirs (ACROD).

Touche.

People tend to assume that Catholic/Orthodox counterparts always means that a portion of an Orthodox church was “converted” (or some similar euphemism) to Catholicism, but your example illustrates that it can be the other way around.

One example not yet mentioned is that the Syro-Malankara Orthodox Church was formed from a portion of the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church – granted they aren’t considered “counterparts” b/c the don’t use the same rite.

 

[dvdjs]

THe Ruthenians are bigger than theirs (ACROD).

Also in Zakarpatskaya the GCC is not “very small” compared to any o fthe Orthodox jurisdictions. The GCC churches in Slovakia and Hungary are large compared to the Orthodox churches there.

 

[dzheremi]

Touche.

People tend to assume that Catholic/Orthodox counterparts always means that a portion of an Orthodox church was “converted” (or some similar euphemism) to Catholicism, but your example illustrates that it can be the other way around.

One example not yet mentioned is that the Syro-Malankara Orthodox Church was formed from a portion of the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church – granted they aren’t considered “counterparts” b/c the don’t use the same rite.

The Malankara Orthodox Church (they don’t use the term “Syro-Malankara”, since that’s what the Catholic faction that united with Rome in 1930 calls itself) is way more complicated than that, Peter. It actually isn’t “the other way around” if “the other way around” means Catholics were converted to Orthodoxy. Rather, they were quite forcefully driven to it by Latin/Portuguese imperial machinations. Not being pedantic here, it’s just if someone were to say they were “converted” to Orthodoxy, people might get the impression that the Syriac Orthodox orchestrated the Coonan Cross Oath or something, which couldn’t be further from the truth…it was, after all, a native Nasrani expression of their unwillingness to submit to their new Roman leaders (they had previously been allied with the East Syriacs/Nestorians for much of their history, not the Romans; though there is evidence of West Syriac/Orthodox activity there, e.g., the Goan inscription from the 6th century praising “Yoldath Aloho”, which is not a term Nestorians would have used).

Maybe that’s why nobody’s brought it up…

 

[AnthonyJ]

I thought the Syriac Orthodox were much larger than the Syriac Catholics at least in the diaspora?

The Chaldeans are larger than the ACOE (although not “Orthodox”, although many will call themselves Assyrian Orthodox); the Syriac Catholics are about the same as the Syriac Orthodox, but if one includes the Maronites, much larger; the Syro-Malabarese eclipse the Chaldean-Syrians in India (although again, technically not “Orthodox” but ACOE).

 

[Peter_J]

The Malankara Orthodox Church (they don’t use the term “Syro-Malankara”, since that’s what the Catholic faction that united with Rome in 1930 calls itself) is way more complicated than that, Peter. It actually isn’t “the other way around” if “the other way around” means Catholics were converted to Orthodoxy.

You’re right. I didn’t mean that the -]Syro-/-]Malankara Orthodox Church came about through proselytizing by the Orthodox; just that it was “the other way around” inasmuch as a group of Catholics became an Orthodox church.

Likewise, there have been some Orthodox-to-Catholic cases that didn’t involve proselytizing, like the case of the Melkite Catholic Church … and the case of the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church that you mentioned.

 

[dzheremi]

I thought the Syriac Orthodox were much larger than the Syriac Catholics at least in the diaspora?

One of the problems in counting Syriac Orthodox is that in India, where the majority arguably live (there are maybe only a million in/from the Middle East), there is an ongoing dispute over whether or not they should be considered their own, autocephalous Church or a major part of the Syriac Orthodox Church. While this issue has not contributed to a schism in the large diaspora, exactly what is going on in India is unclear (there are arguments, which occasionally end up in court, over particular church properties, but as far as I know no out-and-out schism…just a fair amount of bad blood, perhaps). But if we count the Indians, there are maybe 4 million total Syriac Orthodox in the world (1 million Middle Eastern SOC, 2.5 million-3 million Syriac Orthodox Indians/Malankara Orthodox; another 0.3-0.5 million Syriacs, primarily from the Middle East, in the diaspora, but also including notable and growing non-Syriac converts, particularly in Europe and Latinoamerica).

It is in some ways a parallel situation to that of the various Syriac-descended Catholics: In the Middle East they are few (e.g., the Chaldeans are now the largest single group in Iraq, if they weren’t before the war, but even then they are only about 500K total, and shrinking in their homeland like all Christian populations are), with large and growing diasporas. If you include the very old and by this point well-established Maronite diaspora, it could be the case that there are more “Syriac Catholics” (in quotes because there is also the Syriac Catholics proper, who are not Maronites) than Syriac Orthodox (ME + Indian) – there are an estimated 3.5 million Maronites alone (according to Maronite-heritage.com, anyway), which almost equals the total number of Syriac Orthodox of any stripe combined. But the other Syriac Catholic churches are very small, so we may be about even.

 

[Peter_J]

If you include the very old and by this point well-established Maronite diaspora, it could be the case that there are more “Syriac Catholics” (in quotes because there is also the Syriac Catholics proper, who are not Maronites) than Syriac Orthodox (ME + Indian)

I don’t want to make too much of my opinion, since I’ve never been “Syriac Catholic” in either the restrictive sense or the broader sense … but FWIW I’m somewhat inclined to use the phrase “Syriac Catholics” in the broader sense.

Of course, I won’t call a Maronite (or anyone else) by that term if he/she does not want to be so called.

Wait for it …

 

[dzheremi]

I don’t want to make too much of my opinion, since I’ve never been “Syriac Catholic” in either the restrictive sense or the broader sense … but FWIW I’m somewhat inclined to use the phrase “Syriac Catholics” in the broader sense.

Of course, I won’t call a Maronite (or anyone else) by that term if he/she does not want to be so called.

Wait for it …

Well, sure. My point is only that there’s more than one distinct group within the umbrella term “Syriac Catholics”, and since the point was about numbers it’s good to keep them separate since they all have different sized populations. It’s easier for Orthodox since we only have two (or three, depending on how you wish to approach the situation in India), while Catholics have five (Chaldeans, Syriac Catholics, Syro-Malabar, Syro-Malankara, and Syriac Maronites), so there’s a lot more to keep track of when trying to tally up the numbers. It also probably doesn’t help that one of those sui juris churches is just called “Syriac Catholic” (or are they still officially “Syrian”? I know that the SOC made the switch to “Syriac” in its official English-language documents a few years ago, to avoid confusion with the Arabized political polity of Syria, but I don’t know if their Catholic daughter church has done the same). Makes deciding how to clarify exactly who you’re talking about a bit more difficult.

 

[malphono]

Well, sure. My point is only that there’s more than one distinct group within the umbrella term “Syriac Catholics”, and since the point was about numbers it’s good to keep them separate since they all have different sized populations. It’s easier for Orthodox since we only have two (or three, depending on how you wish to approach the situation in India), while Catholics have five (Chaldeans, Syriac Catholics, Syro-Malabar, Syro-Malankara, and Syriac Maronites), so there’s a lot more to keep track of when trying to tally up the numbers.

We, ourselves, normally do not use the designation “Syriac Catholic” but rather the “Syro-” prefix. We do, however, use the term “Syriac Churches” when speaking of our shared patrimony, etc. Frankly, Maronites shouldn’t really use the word “Catholic” at all, but of course there are of precious few of us who hold to the tradition of using either Syro-Maronite Church or simply Maronite Church.

It also probably doesn’t help that one of those sui juris churches is just called “Syriac Catholic” (or are they still officially “Syrian”? I know that the SOC made the switch to “Syriac” in its official English-language documents a few years ago, to avoid confusion with the Arabized political polity of Syria, but I don’t know if their Catholic daughter church has done the same). Makes deciding how to clarify exactly who you’re talking about a bit more difficult.

Yes, The SCC in English is “Syriac” for the exact same reason as the SOC.

 

[dzheremi]

We, ourselves, normally do not use the designation “Syriac Catholic” but rather the “Syro-” prefix.

A good point. It can get a bit confusing for me, since “Syro-” is often used as a prefix without regard to confession in linguistic material (“Syro-Aramaic”, etc.), so I’ve gotten used to using that way in that domain of my life, and a few months ago I was talking to a Malankara Orthodox person and accidentally said “Syro-Malankara” meaning Malankara Syriac Orthodox…that went over well… :doh2:

Frankly, Maronites shouldn’t really use the word “Catholic” at all

Would it be too sensitive in this venue to inquire as to why that is?

Yes, The SCC in English is “Syriac” for the exact same reason as the SOC.

Good to know. Thanks for all this info.