Arrogance

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Flapneck

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I have some questions

You guys believe that this whole universe was created just for you? To me, this seems like the highest level of arrogance you can achieve. This ENTIRE place just for us? Then you cloud this pride with false messages of love and peace just so it doesn’t look like your religion is an ego-boosting tool. If you look at it, your faith is simply a means of comfort and illusionary hope. At least it seems this way to me.

Also, why does the Bible say Earth is a flat circle that doesn’t move, while the Sun rotates around it? I read some passages and this confused me. You guys really don’t believe that do you?
 
Flapneck said:
I have some questions

You guys believe that this whole universe was created just for you? To me, this seems like the highest level of arrogance you can achieve. This ENTIRE place just for us? Then you cloud this pride with false messages of love and peace just so it doesn’t look like your religion is an ego-boosting tool. If you look at it, your faith is simply a means of comfort and illusionary hope. At least it seems this way to me.

Also, why does the Bible say Earth is a flat circle that doesn’t move, while the Sun rotates around it? I read some passages and this confused me. You guys really don’t believe that do you?
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How are you not showing arrogance in this post? You appear to be blasting Christians for misconceptions you have, and boast about how we apparently believe a certain way. Show me where Catholics believe this.

You’re in my prayers.

Pace e Bene
Andrew
 
Flapneck said:
Also, why does the Bible say Earth is a flat circle that doesn’t move, while the Sun rotates around it? I read some passages and this confused me. You guys really don’t believe that do you?
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What are you trying to say? You mean the Earth’s not flat? :cool:
 
What about, the arrogance that we as humans, completely disregard everything, and without a truth, base our existence on a religion?
 
Hi Flapneck! Welcome to CAF!

You seem to have many anxieties and worries on you. I don’t really know what you understand that would make you think such harsh things as you enumerated in your OP, but as far as my understanding goes, God created us to love us and to love each other. I imagine He created all the rest of the universe for the same reason, out of love. He is the creator, and He loves to create. Like an artist maybe?? All is not for us, all is for Him. Right?

And why does the Bible say Earth is a flat circle that doesn’t move, and that the Sun rotates around it? I never read that passage in the Bible. Would you be able to quote a chapter and verse for me? Sometimes stuff is taken out of context and misunderstood.

God bless and keep you!
 
**Isaiah 40:22 **
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

Circles are flat

Chronicles 16:30
Tremble before Him, all the earth; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved.

The Earth can’t be moved? So the sun must circle Earth.
 
Flapneck said:
**Isaiah 40:22 **
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

Circles are flat

Chronicles 16:30
Tremble before Him, all the earth; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved.

The Earth can’t be moved? So the sun must circle Earth.
Click to expand...
Your post is an excellent example of the reality that scripture cannot be understood outside the light of the Church. You are approaching scripture exactly like fundamentalist Protestants approach it, and consequently you are making exactly the same mistakes that fundamentalists Protestants make. How does that make you feel?
 
How must I approach Scripture? The literal meaning is not correct? Then how can I trust this to be the word of God?
 
Flapneck said:
**Isaiah 40:22 **
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

Circles are flat

Chronicles 16:30
Tremble before Him, all the earth; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved.

The Earth can’t be moved? So the sun must circle Earth.
Click to expand...
So because they used the word “circle” instead of the word “sphere”, and because they say “the world is firmly established,” this is your reasoning that the Bible says the world is flat and the sun revolves around it? Sounds like a stretch in interpretation to me. But I’m just me after all, and “I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.”

…goo goo g’joob
 
Flapneck said:
How must I approach Scripture? The literal meaning is not correct? Then how can I trust this to be the word of God?
Click to expand...
Scripture is not a science text. Scripture is indeed the written word of God, “Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 107).

The question of whether the earth is a sphere or a disc is not a matter of our salvation. The question of whether the earth moves or does not move is not a matter of our salvation. Further, your interpretation of those passages is really stretching to make your point. One could easily read those passages and not come to your conclusions.

Anyway, if you learn anything from this thread, it is that Catholicism is not fundamentalist Protestantism. Catholicism does not teach that all sacred truth is found in the bible, and that every word in the bible is literal sacred truth. Catholicism teaches something much more interesting.
 
Flapneck said:
**Isaiah 40:22 **
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

Circles are flat

Chronicles 16:30
Tremble before Him, all the earth; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved.

The Earth can’t be moved? So the sun must circle Earth.
Click to expand...
Flapneck, when Catholics read the Bible, we know enough to put things into historical context. The book of Isaiah was writing, around 500 B.C. and the book of Chronicles was written before then. Nobody, absolutely nobody, back then had any concept of a solar system similar to what we know now. I believe there might have been one Greek philosopher, whose name I can’t remember, who thought the earth moved around the sun, but even the Greeks rejected him.

When we read the Bible, we have to be open minded enough to understand the times and places where these things were written. That is actually the exact opposite of arrogance.

Plus, the Bible is not a science book. Isaiah wasn’t trying to prove the earth was flat. That wasn’t his point at all. He was merely invoking imagery which would have been understood at that time to express the greatness of God. Same goes with the Chronicles. If we substitute “sphere” for “circle” and “galaxy” for “world” the meaning of these two verses would not change one little bit.

Now, as for our collective arrogance, I’ll apologize to the first alien I meet. I mean that too. The universe is enormous. There could be other life on other planets, but even if there is, that would not solve any of the ontological questions humans have been raising since the dawn of our species. Humans have to ask the question “Why are we here.” Adding Extra-Terrestrials to the mix only changes the question to “Why are we both here.” I do not believe in God because of the Bible. I believe in the Bible because I believe in God. God answers the question of why I am here.

Now, if you want to have a discussion about whether of not God exists, of whether of not the world is a product of mere randomness, that is an entirely different question which I would be happy to discuss with you some other time.
 
Flapneck said:
How must I approach Scripture? The literal meaning is not correct? Then how can I trust this to be the word of God?
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You can trust Scripture to be divinely inspired because it is a story of prophecy.

I have my doubts that you have ever researched prophecy. If you have, then I suppose you are welcome to call us arrogant. But if you haven’t, then maybe you should do some research on the teapot who called the kettle black.
 
WI800 said:
What about, the arrogance that we as humans, completely disregard everything, and without a truth, base our existence on a religion?
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What do you mean disregard everything? I haven’t seen that in religons, even the false ones.😛

Without a truth? Didn’t Pilate ask “What is Truth?”

And we should base our existence on what?

And as for the humans (I’ll leave angels out of it), we’re the only ones who base ourselves on anything. Slugs don’t worry about truth: they even eat the lawn poison.
 
You guys really don’t have a strong argument. I’m a person who needs evidence to believe something exist and there still is no evidence. Sorry.
 
Flapneck, You need to learn how to read scripture.

Much of it is poetry and must be read in light of the rules governing poetry. (there is a lot more poetry than just the psalms) The true message of poetry is under the surface meaning of the words.

The bible is not a History book - though much of the History in the book is accurate - more accurate than other contemporary texts.

The bible does not teach science and to try to read it as a science text is to miss the point entirely. It is not teaching scientific truth.

You have to read scripture with an eye to understanding the meaning that the original audience had. They cared little for our scientific approach to history and they had little or no concept of our physical sciences. These things are not the message or the truth being conveyed in scripture.

God did not “dictate” the bible to the authors. God used humans in a specific time and place to give us His truth, but human words are utterly inadequate to express the truth about God. Unfortunately, they are all we have.

Words bring to mind experiences and images and that is how meaning is transfered between people - through remembered & shared experiences and images. You share only some experiences with the original authors & audience of scripture so it will be easy for you to miss the message.

You are not reading scripture in the original languages. You are bringing your limited understanding of the words used in the translation to scripture rather than the understanding the original audience had of the words in the original language. You are missing much in the way of context, nuance, and the richness of the vocabulary. Some concepts cannot be adequately translated from one language to another. The separation in time and culture only makes these problems that much greater.

The translation you are using is not the inspired text - no translation is. It is a series of compromises that a committee made to bring the text to you filtered though the point of view, goals, preconceptions, and prejudices of the translators.

Do you know if the translation you are reading was intended to be read or proclaimed? What balance were the translators trying to reach between readability and faithfulness to the original text? Where they trying to give a meaning-for-meaning translation or word-for-word translation?

There are many more issues I could go through but I think you get the idea.

These are not insurmountable problems, but these problems mean you cannot just pick up scripture and instantly understand the text. It takes a lot of work and it takes a trust worthy teacher, like the eunuch found in Acts 8:27.

Whether you know it or not you are reading scripture like most Fundamentalists.

Remember, the question is not “What does scripture mean to me?” The question is, “What does scripture mean?”

In short - you doubt that scripture teaches truth when you don’t know what scripture teaches. And you seem unwilling to do the work necessary to learn.
 
Flapneck said:
You guys really don’t have a strong argument. I’m a person who needs evidence to believe something exist and there still is no evidence. Sorry.
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I’m sorry, have you provided a shred of evidence that someone other than us exists?

Look into Dinesh D’Souza’s recent expose on irreligion, the opiate of the secularist.
 
Flapneck,
I believe you’ll find that the Catholic Church is silent on the subject of little green men in outer space (or whatever color you imagine them to be) What I/we speculate about them is not relevant in the context of Christian/Catholic beliefs.

Your accusation about our supposed arrogance on the subject is just wind.

Before you reject our beliefs - try to learn what it is you are rejecting.
 
**Isaiah 40:22 **
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
Click to expand...
Circles are flat
Click to expand...
I assume you have seen picture of earth from space. Looks like a circle doesn’t it? It is all about your point of view. A one eyed person has no depth perception and can’t see that a globe isn’t a circle. The bible is not a science book. It is a history of a people and a faith.
Chronicles 16:30
Tremble before Him, all the earth; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved.
Click to expand...
The Earth can’t be moved? So the sun must circle Earth.
Click to expand...
From the point of view of someone on the earth the sun and stars do circle the earth. It is not until you change your point of view off the earth that you realize that they don’t.
 
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