Artemis of the Ephesians and Blessed Virgin Mary

[Crocus]

@dougp, I think you replied to me.

Are you sure these apply to the RCC elevation of Mary?

The question from Tommy was: “when the veneration of Mary started.”

These scriptural references (Luke 1: 28, 42, 48-49) show veneration started at least some months before the birth of Jesus. Additional testimony later on during the time of Jesus’ ministry:

Luke 11: … a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him [Jesus], “Blessed is the womb that bore you and the breasts that nursed you!”

Regarding the elevation of Mary, it is God himself who does that through her holy motherhood:

Luke 1: 30-31 The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus.
35 … he will be called Son of God.
49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name.

 

[dougp]

Yeah, the forum s/w doesn’t like smartphones. Hard to keep my place.
Good answers, still more from Magisterium than they should be IMO.
I’m gathering a response to similar posts and will get back with it. If my finger don’t fall off first.

 

[edward_george1]

Second, much of the Immaculate Conception
dogma is founded on reasoning from the Protoevangelium of James, an apocryphal work. Jerome said such “Christian” apocrypha advertised their falsity on their faces. You would be well advised to read what CathEn has to say about it. Not a pretty sight.

Actually, it’s based on a plain reading of the Biblical account of the Annunciation, from Luke 1, 26-39.

Notice what Mary’s reaction to the angel is–or rather, what it isn’t. She doesn’t prostrate herself before him, as most people do; nor does she fear death at having seen the presence of God, the way others do when they encounter an angel. Instead, she ponders the meaning of his greeting. “Chaire, Kecharitomene!” he says, “Hail, full of grace.” The word “kecharitomene” only occurs here, and it means that she is full of grace in a perfect and lasting sense, given the grammatical construction of it. She is completed in grace, as it were, graced in a way that no other person was, save for Christ himself, of course. The angel uses it as her title, as a form of address. And he doesn’t strike her dumb the way he does Zechariah when the latter questions him. He strikes Zechariah dumb for daring to question his superior, for angels are ontologically superior to humans. But he does not strike dumb the Immaculately Conceived Queen of the Angels, whom he must answer to himself.

-Fr ACEGC

 

[dougp]

You’re right about my word choice. I’ve seen the word mariology used by Catholics, but I misspoke (mistyped?). I apologize.

Almost exactly a century ago a group of zealous Catholic laymen decided to put together an encyclopedia to publicise their religion. They ended up with 16 volumes’ worth, and IMO they did a fine job. There is much less bias than I expected and I use it often for my study of religion, history and the Bible.

A few years ago some Catholics decided to transcribe it into digital form. That can be seen at newadvent.org/encyclopedia.

Here is the Protoevangelium itself.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm

Here’s Anne, “the traditional name of the mother of the Blessed Virgin Mary.”
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01538a.htm

Notice the doubtfulness as to the P.James.
More later.

 

[stpurl]

Diana/Hecate (Roman) /Artemis (Greek) was not the goddess of wisdom; that would be Athena (Greek)/Minerva (Roman).

Artemis was the goddess of the hunt, and the Roman Diana later became identified with the much darker Hecate (moon), probably since her brother Apollo was identified with the sun.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Sorry, my bad.

 

[stpurl]

There’s a King of Kings in the Bible too, an earthly one. Ezra 7 referring to Artaxerxes, King of Kings.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

The Queen is also prophesied in Psalm 45 (44).

 

[poche]

All of these goddesses can be seen as prefigurations of the coming of the Mother of God. Of course the pagan mind is clouded without the illumination of the Holy Bible.

 

[dougp]

Thanks for the tip. I hadn’t seen that before. It’s a bride and groom, I think we can agree. As to the Queen being Mary, perhaps we don’t want to go there. Not necessary; see below.
It does fit some other theology, connected to the woman in Revelation with the 12 stars. Mary, or another? That’s for another time, maybe.

Ps 45 & 72 are two of my favorites. Both clearly
Messianic, although nominally about Solomon. They sketch what Jesus will do to restore the earth to paradisaical conditions in the near future. Something to look forward to, isn’t it?

FWIW the NJB and some others have “consort” in the text, with “queen” in mine footnoted. Can’t argue with either one.
NJB superscription is Royal Wedding Song, which they say may be historical; in the event, it’s Messianic to them also. “celebrating the marriage of the Messianic king with Israel, prefiguring the Church.” Interesting. I can agree with that, but I would use “prefiguring” for accuracy. Very interesting.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

The Queen is the mother in Israel, like with Solomon and Bathsheba, not the bride.

 

[Elf01]

He strikes Zechariah dumb for daring to question his superior, for angels are ontologically superior to humans. But he does not strike dumb the Immaculately Conceived Queen of the Angels, whom he must answer to himself.

Interesting.

I always thought that there was a difference in their responses. Zechariah wondered if the apple would fall. Mary wondered how the apple would fall.

 

[Francis]

@Tommy999

Catholicism, in order to placate the former worshippers of the goddess Artemis of the Ephesians, co-opted Mary and bestowed on her the title ‘Mother of God’ in AD 431 so that the innate need of some of the Mediterranean peoples to have a female goddess could be met.

2 Kings 1:2 2 Ahaziah had fallen through the lattice in his upper chamber in Samaria, and lay injured; so he sent messengers, telling them, “Go, inquire of Baal-zebub, the god of Ekron, whether I shall recover from this injury.”

Matthew 10:25 25 it is enough for the disciple to be like the teacher, and the slave like the master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more will they malign those of his household!(Jesus and Mary )When some Pharisees called Jesus as Beelzebub prince of demons how much more will Non Catholic call Mary goddess of Artemis )

The attribution of Jesus’ work to Beelzebub was a serious accusation that misunderstood the person and work of the Messiah.so now Non catholic accuse the Mother of God as goddess Artemis

Matthew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the ruler of the demons, that this fellow casts out the demons.”

975 “We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ” (Paul VI, CPG § 15).

**[966] "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

509 Mary is truly “Mother of God” since she is the mother of the eternal Son of God made man, who is God himself.

510 Mary “remained a virgin in conceiving her Son, a virgin in giving birth to him, a virgin in carrying him, a virgin in nursing him at her breast, always a virgin” (St. Augustine, Serm . 186, 1: PL 38, 999): with her whole being she is “the handmaid of the Lord” ( Lk 1:38).

511 The Virgin Mary “cooperated through free faith and obedience in human salvation” (LG 56). She uttered her yes “in the name of all human nature” (St. Thomas Aquinas, STh III, 30, 1). By her obedience she became the new Eve, mother of the living.

All the Apostles acknowledge her as the their Queen, the Angles and Saints,the whole heavenly court venerate her as Queen and Empress

Revelation 12:1-2 A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman (Mother Mary) clothed with the sun (Glory Wisdom 7:26 For she (Mother Mary) is a reflection of eternal light=Jesus John 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world.

 

[Francis]

Just curious… is there a timeline in the writings of the Church as to when the veneration of Mary started? I sssume it started much sooner than 431AD.

In started from Genesis 3:15 I will put enmities between thee(satan) and the woman(Mary), and thy(satan and wicked people ) seed and her seed(Jesus and we Catholic and those who respect and honor her ): she(Mother Mary) shall crush thy(satan) head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her(Mother Mary) heel.

St Paul acknowledges her as the Queen In this verse it is very clear Galatians 4:26 But the other woman corresponds to the Jerusalem above; she is free= (sinless MOTHER MARY) and she is our mother ( MARY).Here Jesus give His Own Mother ,as our Mother, so also to the Church as well through His beloved Apostle St John in turn to all Humans.

Jesus and He make it very clear whom to obey Mother Mary,did He not? He gave his last treasure(all the Graces,secrets of the Kingdom of God is Hidden in the Immaculate Heart of Mary. LK 2:19,51) to the Church as St John as a Apostle and representing all of us, read and understand ? follow His instructions?

John 19:26 When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman,(addressing as the Women of Genesis 3:15 the New Eve our Mother Mary) behold, your son!” 27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!”( its a commandment Exodus 20:12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long(Eternity ) in the land (Heaven)which the Lord your God gives you).And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home(His heart, the Church, for all human race for Eternity).Hebrews 11:16 (Mother Mary emphasized here Revelation 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem (Mother Mary)

Heavenly Father has done great things for Her, He has brought down rulers from their thrones and lifted up the lowly (Mother Mary ) He did the will of the Father and fulfilled His promise ,His mission,role,did He not? Jesus said it is Finished only then, He fulfilled and finished His most important mission of His life, the will the Father, by entrusting Mother Mary to the Church did He not ? Women behold your Son . “Behold, your mother!” Its a commandment ,lets Obey and finish our mission by doing the will of God.

496 From the first formulations of her faith, the Church has confessed that Jesus was conceived solely by the power of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Virgin Mary, affirming also the corporeal aspect of this event: Jesus was conceived “by the Holy Spirit without human seed”.146 The Fathers see in the virginal conception the sign that it truly was the Son of God who came in a humanity like our own. Thus St. Ignatius of Antioch at the beginning of the second century says:

You are firmly convinced about our Lord, who is truly of the race of David according to the flesh, Son of God according to the will and power of God, truly born of a virgin,. . . he was truly nailed to a tree for us in his flesh under Pontius Pilate. . . he truly suffered, as he is also truly risen.147

 

[Tis_Bearself]

’ve often wondered. Isn’t the mother of a god necessarily a goddess herself? In that case, why are Catholics upset by ‘accusations’ that they “worship” Mary. Shouldn’t you be proud of it?

She’s human and not a goddess. She is not one of the three persons of the Trinity. And we don’t worship her.
Please do not hijack the OP’s thread with your own separate issues. If you want to discuss this, make a new thread.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Tommy, I post this information because you might find it interesting.

I personally don’t go around trying to “refute” people who make ridiculous and blasphemous statements about Our Blessed Mother. I would simply tell them they are being ridiculous and blasphemous and challenge them to give me a CREDIBLE source, not some crazy Internet web page, backing up their claims before I would even talk to them.

But at any rate…U of Dayton is a hub of Mariology studies, and they have a nice timeline about Mary in Church history right here. So you can see all the ways Mary came up in the early Church.

https://udayton.edu/imri/mary/c/chronological-table-of-marian-events.php#c1

As shown by the table, Mary has been venerated since very early in Church history.

 

[Francis]

I believe the Church says something like ‘it was from earliest times’. But, that often turns out to be 300, 500, 1000 C.E. and so on.
CathEn says, “Devotion to Our Blessed Lady … must be regarded as a practical application of the doctrine of the Communion of Saints … [which] is not contained, at least explicity, in the earlier forms of the Apostles’ Creed … we do not meet with any clear traces of the cultus of [her] in the first Christian centuries.” Emphasis added.

From the time of Jesus the Apostle venerated her and acknowledged as the Mother of God
John 19:26 When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman,(addressing as the Women of Genesis 3:15 the New Eve our Mother Mary) behold, your son!” 27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!”

God has choose Mother Mary above all women in Luke 1:41 and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit 42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit (Jesus) of your womb! God the Holy Spirit Himself is speaking through St Elizabeth as an instrument since no body can call Lord with out the Holy Spirit Is it true? yes the Word of God is True Jn 17:17 as the Word of God became flesh in Her ,so we all should be come flesh in her and be born spiritually by her.

I’ve often wondered. Isn’t the mother of a god necessarily a goddess herself? In that case, why are Catholics upset by ‘accusations’ that they “worship” Mary. Shouldn’t you be proud of it?

Your make a false accusation and a serious allegation on the Catholic ,If the Heavenly Father has called her and chosen her as the Mother of God ,remembers angles are only messengers ,the words are from the Father, if you know even a little bit of history ,who is a catholic ,you’ll know Catholic don’t worship but only venerate her , in fact is it’s blasphemy against the Holy Spirit for saying such things about the Mother of God and your Spiritual Mother ,remember its a sin which even in this life nor in the next Jesus said will not be forgiven so let be careful before we accuse any one. Mark 1:15

 

[Francis]

Diana/Artemis was the goddess of wisdom, and many RCC apologists give Mary as the personification of Wisdom at Pro ch. 8. (Although the Church no longer does, I think.)

Jesus is also is wisdom and acknowledges his mother as the personification as wisdom Luke 7:35 Nevertheless, (Mary )wisdom is vindicated by all her children.” Nothing wrong there !

 

[Francis]

Are you sure these apply to the RCC elevation of Mary?

You false accuse again, its not the RCC who elevates,actually but God “Bible student” are you the one who scatters or gathers? since most Non Catholic elevate her as goddess just to accuse Catholic ,but in fact Catholic only venerate

Luke 1:48 for he has looked with favor on the lowliness of his servant.Surely, from now on all generations will call me blessed;52 He (God, Heavenly Father) has brought down the powerful from their thrones,and lifted up the lowly;(Mary)

Matthew 23:12 All who exalt themselves will be humbled, and all who humble themselves will be exalted.Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other; for all who exalt themselves will be humbled, but all who humble themselves will be exalted.”

“Rejoice, you who enjoy God’s favour!”

For Abram too,

The Douai says Stephen was “full of grace”. Jael, at Judges 5:4 Dy is " blessed among women".

Still born in sin .

But Mother was full of Grace, surpassing Angles and Saint in all virtues

 

[John_Martin]

I read a prophecy in the Bible.
All the Bible’s prophecies happen. True?..
Yes. We surely all believe what is plainly and clearly there.

To a woman who’s child in her womb had the Holy Spirit, and who herself, without being told, knew Mary was carrying the Lord, to this woman the prophecy was spoken. “Henceforth all generations will call me blessed.” We know that Elizabeth had the Holy Spirit and she did not contradict Mary.

This prophecy has come true in every generation by those who call Mary blessed, who say, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.”

It is the Catholic Church that is fulfilling all the prophecies of Scripture in your world today being a people in this world but not of this world. How about you? Are you fulfilling this prophecy by telling Mary she is blessed among women, or are you watching us fulfill the prophecy in your midst (which we gladly continue)?

It was the same in Ephesus; those who were in the world but not of the world we’re fulfilling this prophecy, not merging with some myth of Artemis.

John Martin