Artemis of the Ephesians and Blessed Virgin Mary

[Francis]

There are two facts that Catholics do well to learn before defending their mariolatry.
First, a “queen of heaven” is indeed found in the Bible. Five times on fact, all in Jeremiah at 7:18, 44:17-19,25. There, she’s a false goddess being worshiped by apostate Israelites. Nothing else.

Well The attribution of Jesus’ work to Beelzebub was a serious accusation that misunderstood the person and work of the Messiah.so now Non catholic accuse the Mother of God Mary as goddess Artemis all the time

2 Kings 1:2 Ahaziah had fallen through the lattice in his upper chamber in Samaria, and lay injured; so he sent messengers, telling them, “Go, inquire of Baal-zebub, the god of Ekron, whether I shall recover from this injury.”

Matthew 10:25 25 it is enough for the disciple to be like the teacher, and the slave like the master. If they have called the master (Jesus )of the house Beelzebub, how much more will they malign those of his household! (and Mary )When some Pharisees called Jesus as Beelzebub prince of demons how much more will the Non Catholic call Mary goddess of Artemis ) and use every means to dishonor her which God exalts her

Matthew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the ruler of the demons, that this fellow casts out the demons.”

John 15:20 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘Servants are not greater than their master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also. How much more they will persecuted the (Jesus)Master’s Mother Mary

Second, much of the Immaculate Conception
dogma is founded on reasoning from the Protoevangelium of James, an apocryphal work. Jerome said such “Christian” apocrypha advertised their falsity on their faces. You would be well advised to read what CathEn has to say about it. Not a pretty sight.

well the Word of God has it anyway Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean will enter Heaven, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life. But when Jesus is born she had to be without Original Sin a pure vessel to contain Jesus in the womb… Lord Jesus (GOD) had to be born in a women who is sinless. Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden locked is my sister, my bride, a garden locked, a fountain sealed. Song of Solomon 6:9 My dove(Mary), my perfect one, is only one, the darling of her mother, flawless (sinless) to her that bore her. The maidens saw her and called her happy; the queens and concubines also, and they praised her. Song of Solomon 6:4 You (Mary) are beautiful as Tirzah, my love, comely as Jerusalem, terrible as an army with banners. Song of Solomon 6:10 “Who is this (Mary)that looks forth like the dawn, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army with banners?” Said by the Angles who were all in Awe of Mary a when they seen her in the Empyrean Heaven and acclaimed so

 

[kainosktisis]

I’ve been to the ruins of Ephesus, the Basilica of St. John the Apostle, & a house where the BVM lived in the care of St. John the Apostle. - all of these in the area of Selçuk, Turkey. If she was in St. John’s care per the Scriptures & Patmos Is. is not too far off of that area, where he was exiled, they’d have been there before his death ca. 100 AD.

 

[Justin_Mary]

I’ve often wondered. Isn’t the mother of a god necessarily a goddess herself? In that case, why are Catholics upset by ‘accusations’ that they “worship” Mary. Shouldn’t you be proud of it?

Have you seen how people lose their minds when the Queen of England makes an appearance, or when something happens with the royal family?

That’s pretty much the way we feel about Mary. She’s Queen of heaven & earth. Bestowed by God.

Were she a goddess, she’d be venerated for her own “merit.”

We venerate her for what God has done through her.

 

[John_Martin]

I’ve often wondered. Isn’t the mother of a god necessarily a goddess herself? In that case, why are Catholics upset by ‘accusations’ that they “worship” Mary. Shouldn’t you be proud of it?

Wow, you do not know your scriptures do you?!!
Her son is not a god, but is the one Eternal God, ‘I AM’. And for her son to be fully human she must be fully human there is no such thing as “a goddess.” Goddesses do not exist.
And to worship means “to offer sacrifice to.” And the only sacrifice we do is that we participate in the Sacrifice of the Son to the Father, of himself as Sacrifice, so that he gives his whole life to his Father and gives us his flesh to eat and his Blood to drink.
We offer No sacrifice to Mary; we simply talk to her as our mother, holding her with the highest regard.

 

[dougp]

It is not that there is a need for a female godess it is that God in His infinite wisdom allowed a glimmer of the truth to shine forth in the darkness of the pagan religions.

Somehow God’s wisdom didn’t reach Paul. “How can Christ come to an agreement with Beliar…” 2Cor 6:14-7:1 NJB. Ends with “we should wash ourselves clean of everything that pollutes either body or spirit”

 

[edward_george1]

@dougp
Did you read what I wrote in post 23? You don’t seem to have addressed my points there. I would be interested to see what you have to say about that.

-Fr ACEGC

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Mary helps the soul get closer to God through her intercession, so she doesn’t pollute anything.

 

[Francis]

Mary helps the soul get closer to God through her intercession, so she doesn’t pollute anything.

Well said Wisdom 7:25 For she(Mary) is a breath of the power of God,and a pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty;therefore nothing defiled(sin) gains entrance into her(Mary).St Paul did mention Mary Gal 4:4,26

1Tim 2:5. One mediator, intercessor, whatever.

John 9:31 says we know that God does not listen to sinners, but he does listen to one who worships him and obeys his will. Which Mother did, co-operated by doing His Will in Luke 1:38. Lk 1:28, 30 – angel: “full of grace,
All Prayers go to God, there is no dispute of one God (Holy Trinity) or Mediator between God and men Jesus Christ. But saints and Angles are like friends to help us, and intercede for us. Mother Mary being the Mother of God, How much more powerful will be, her intercession before God .AS she was born without original sin and she was sinless throughout her life, who bore sufferings, being Holy, assumed into Heaven Body and Soul ,in John 2:2-5 Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3 When the wine gave out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what concern is that to you and to me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” .Thus even thought it was not the appointed time and note many places in the Bible Jesus done everything on the appointed time as per the will of God, but Through her intercession she quickened the miracle and everyone’s surprise and everyone glorified Jesus and they believed John 2:11 Jesus did this, the first of his signs, in Cana of Galilee, and revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.

Tobit 12 :14 So now God sent me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah. 15 I am Raph′ael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One.”

**[968] Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."511
[970] "Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513

"No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514

 

[anon91549587]

To all who oppose Mary or despise her.
Dont be surprised if you see her in heaven after your death. To despise her is to be on the side of the devil simply because she oived the christian faith much more than all of us.

 

[John_Martin]

Please read Rev 3:12 and tell me what you think of it.

Ὁ νικῶν, ποιήσω αὐτὸν στῦλον ἐν τῷ ναῷ τοῦ Θεοῦ μου, καὶ ἔξω οὐ μὴ ἐξέλθῃ ἔτι, καὶ γράψω ἐπ’ αὐτὸν τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ Θεοῦ μου καὶ τὸ ὄνομα τῆς πόλεως τοῦ Θεοῦ μου, τῆς καινῆς Ἱερουσαλὴμ ἡ καταβαίνουσα ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ἀπὸ τοῦ Θεοῦ μου, καὶ τὸ ὄνομά μου τὸ καινόν.

I think it is quite obvious; while Jesus will tell some, “Depart from me, I never knew you,” these Philadelphian Catholics who did not deny his words or his Name would have a special place of honor, each of them, in the Resurrection and the New Jerusalem. Here’s where his Name is related to a faithful student The Name | SoftVocation who asked.

By the way, you noticed that there is no temple in the New Jerusalem, and no sun and no moon.
The city is alive; God is its temple; The Twelve Gates have the names of the 12 apostles; they are living Gates; and these Philadelphians are living pillars there.

John Martin

 

[poche]

It is not that Christ has anything to do with pagan deities. It is that God allowed an opening to the Gospel.

 

[Francis]

Somehow God’s wisdom didn’t reach Paul.

Really!!!

2 Peter 3:15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, beware that you are not carried away with the error of the lawless and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen

“How can Christ come to an agreement with Beliar…” 2Cor 6:14-7:1 NJB. Ends with “we should wash ourselves clean of everything that pollutes either body or spirit”

It is not that Christ has anything to do with pagan deities. It is that God allowed an opening to the Gospel.

Yes nicely said .There are times God choose pagan kings to do the will of God even the most wicked as in Daniel 3:32,You have handed us over to our enemies, lawless and hateful rebels,_ and to an unjust king, the most wicked in all the world._when Israel the Chosen children of God in order to bring them repentance to them to repentance.You can see throughout history God

**There is also times God used animals like the most stupidest animal like the donkey in order to teach us or make us understand 2 Peter 2:16 but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

God has reveal through many philosophers and thinkers, wise men from centuries a glimpse or a page, a ray of light in order to have hope for the gentiles though it has obscured because of their darkness of mind nevertheless God shows mercy Acts 26:23 and Isaiah 9:2 The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light;those who lived in a land of deep darkness—on them light has shined.**

There are times God uses Gentiles or in other word non-Christians ,to correct rebuke and bring us to repentance.In God’s sight there is no distinctions as in Matthew 5:45 so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good,and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous

Romans 2:11 For God shows no partiality.Acts 10:45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astounded that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles,

 

[John_Martin]

So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

Marvelous how the first Pope defends the Apostolic Aurhority of that great Apostle Paul, and how you support Peter in the same thing.

 

[Francis]

OH ! Yea! Marvelous indeed ! THE POPE who stands in the person of Christ as in. Matthew 16:16-18 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church , and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. A solid promise of Jesus. Psalm 12:6 The promises of the Lord are promises that are pure, silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times.

Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Seems like this thread has turned into one big off-topic Biblical debate about Mary with someone who doesn’t believe the Catholic teachings about Mary and has veered far from the OP’s original question.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

God does mediate through things like the Bible and preachers so that might be referring to something else. Besides James says the prayers of the righteous are powerful.

 

[edward_george1]

@dougp

I am still very interested in your thoughts on what I posted above, in post 23, regarding the interpretation of the Annunciation account from Luke’s Gospel. I await your comments.

-Fr ACEGC

 

[Mary888]

_ The title Theotokos

1. Adoption at the Third Ecumenical Council

As a title for the Virgin Mary, Theotokos was recognized by the Orthodox Church at Third Ecumenical Council held at Ephesus in 431. It had already been in use for some time in the devotional and liturgical life of the Church. The theological significance of the title is to emphasize that Mary’s son, Jesus, is fully God, as well as fully human, and that Jesus’ two natures (divine and human) were united in a single Person of the Trinity. The competing view at that council was that Mary should be called Christotokos instead, meaning “Birth-giver to Christ.” This was the view advocated by Nestorius, then Patriarch of Constantinople. The intent behind calling her Christotokos was to restrict her role to be only the mother of “Christ’s humanity” and not his divine nature.

Nestorius’ view was anathematized by the Council as heresy, (see Nestorianism), since it was considered to be dividing Jesus into two distinct persons, one who was Son of Mary, and another, the divine nature, who was not. It was defined that although Jesus has two natures, human and divine, these are eternally united in one personhood. Because Mary is the mother of God the Son, she is therefore duly entitled Theotokos .

Calling Mary the Theotokos or the Mother of God (Μητηρ Θεου) was never meant to suggest that Mary was coeternal with God, or that she existed before Jesus Christ or God existed. The Church acknowledges the mystery in the words of this ancient hymn: “He whom the entire universe could not contain was contained within your womb, O Theotokos.”

The title “Theotokos” continues to be used frequently in the hymns of the Orthodox Church.

More on the subject
https://orthodoxwiki.org/Theotokos

 

[Mary888]

Those people back then were pretty “bigoted”, they did not play with pagan idols easily. They also argued ideas that they found contradict the Bible even if that meant division and thus less parishioners to one idea or the other. They were not men of compromise. The thinking of your friend to compose a religious idea just to make it cooler and cash on pagan beliefs is the way of the world today. Back in those days there was no social-psychology and the Church was just happy to not have to die every 5 minutes like they had to do during Diocletian. Many Martyrs died by claiming ALL pagan idols were fake. It was clearly not the mindset of Christians back then to make compromises to make Christianity a hit success.

 

[angel12]

That’s all the answer I have for you. “Your mission, Jim, should you choose to accept it”, is to get your thinking in line with God’s word, not man’s.
Should you choose to accept it. If not, I have nothing else for you.

No, you want Father to get his thinking in line with yours. That was a rude and disrespectful thing to say to a priest.