Article by George Barna on Catholics

[Got1b]

Has anyone read this?

barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdateNarrow&BarnaUpdateID=274

What are your thoughts on a survey of Catholicism within the US, I think this represents a lot of fears those of us Evangelicals on the fence fear, not so much for us personally, but the “Luke warm” culture we may be brining are kids into and its impact on them. Not to mention why so many Evangelicals look down on Catholics. Please do not misunderstand me, I am not attacking Catholicism or necessarily supporting the article but would like to open a discussion on the state of Amercian Catholicism, its impact on America, how things got to where they are, are there signs of improvement and what can be done about it.

 

[Teflon93]

Has anyone read this?

barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdateNarrow&BarnaUpdateID=274

What are your thoughts on a survey of Catholicism within the US, I think this represents a lot of fears those of us Evangelicals on the fence fear, not so much for us personally, but the “Luke warm” culture we may be brining are kids into and its impact on them. Not to mention why so many Evangelicals look down on Catholics. Please do not misunderstand me, I am not attacking Catholicism or necessarily supporting the article but would like to open a discussion on the state of Amercian Catholicism, its impact on America, how things got to where they are, are there signs of improvement and what can be done about it.

It’s interesting.

Let’s not discount the fact that many American Catholics have been disheartened by the sexual abuse scandal. These kind of surveys are what I call “flag-wavers”—they rely on the subject’s willingness to wave the banner of their affiliation proudly. I know a number of Catholics who are leery of doing so for fear of the response.

We must also consider that Catholics are more ethnically diverse than other denominations, and that may be a factor in responding to telephone surveys. In addition, there is a greater tendency among Catholics to identify oneself as Catholic even when one has fallen away from the Church. Results would likely be different for the population which attends Mass at least a couple of times a month than for self-identified Catholics for obvious reasons.

 

[Prague]

I read the article, and the thought I kept having was hogwash.
But, that is just my humble opinon.

 

[epostle]

I agree. Hogwash.

Numbers don’t matter.

If 99.999% of American Catholics (or world Catholics for that matter) fall into laxity, that in no way changes the fact that the Universal Church founded by Jesus Christ cannot make any faith or moral compromises.

Lots of Catholics are contracepting but that does not mean the Catholic Church has failed. It means the ones contracepting have failed to grasp the Church’s teachings, and are committing sexual suicide.

Would the Barna group take polls from Catholics as they come out of Mass on Sunday, and get the same results as from a random telephone survey? I don’t think so.

 

[Prague]

Thanks. Polls can be turned anyway they want. I would like to see the questions that were asked.

 

[dcdurel]

Has anyone read this?

barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdateNarrow&BarnaUpdateID=274

What are your thoughts on a survey of Catholicism within the US, I think this represents a lot of fears those of us Evangelicals on the fence fear, not so much for us personally, but the “Luke warm” culture we may be brining are kids into and its impact on them. Not to mention why so many Evangelicals look down on Catholics. Please do not misunderstand me, I am not attacking Catholicism or necessarily supporting the article but would like to open a discussion on the state of Amercian Catholicism, its impact on America, how things got to where they are, are there signs of improvement and what can be done about it.

  Of course Catholics overall seem lukewarm.  When they rejected the Church's teaching on contraception,  suddenly all the priests stopped teaching Catholic doctrine during the homily.   Priests  are now taught to only give a commentary on scripture, instead of giving a systematic  instruction in the truths of the faith, based on the catechism, like they did before Vatican II.

I think that God has given Catholics exactly what they want.   They didn't want to hear doctrine on sexual morality, they didn't want to hear doctrine on contraception, pre-marital sex, abortion, divorce and remarriage, etc.  They complained the Church was hung up on rules, to rigid, to inflexible etc.   They disobeyed the Church on contraception, So God has given Catholics

exactly what they wanted, Church leaders in this country who no longer require homilies that indoctrinate in the truths the apostles handed down, especially on the moral laws regarding sexual matters. All we get is commentary, because that is all we want. Thus Catholics contracept, which causes divorce, which causes an increase in crime, drug use, alcoholism etc. Disobedience regarding sexual matters leads to loss of faith, less love for God, tolerance of sexual immorality in other areas etc. I suppose when Catholics begin to realize how sinful they have become and repent of their sexual rebellion, then perhaps God will allow changes in the content of the homlies.
But, until then, I don’t see any improvement.

The teachings of the Catholic Church are perfect, as they come from God, through Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I am constantly amazed by the teachings in the Catechism and by the teachings of the Popes. Simply amazing.
Thus, for those who want the truth and want the grace to obey that truth, the Catholic Church is that wonderful organization Jesus died for, which will give us the truth if we search for it.
But God will no longer give us teachers who actively indoctrinate us in the truth, as long as we are disobedient to His will regarding sexual matters. I see no major improvements by the majority of Catholics in these matters, thus I see no major improvements in regards to being taught these doctrines. Thus, expect the lukewarmness to continue.

 

[Got1b]

DCDUREL,
Thanks for the insight, I was brought up post Vatican II, so don’t know what it was like back then. I must say what you say makes sense. I remember little “doctrine” taught. The funny thing is that is a growing phenominom in Evangelical Churches also. In fact, i find their doctrine real weak and watered down , often boiled down to 10 basic points. I am impressed how developed Catholic Doctrine is, and yet so few Catholics know or appreciate it. For me, I am hopefull for improvement. Shows like Catholic Anwers and EWTN seem to be filling the post Vatican II void.

 

[Teflon93]

I agree. Hogwash.

Numbers don’t matter.

If 99.999% of American Catholics (or world Catholics for that matter) fall into laxity, that in no way changes the fact that the Universal Church founded by Jesus Christ cannot make any faith or moral compromises.

Lots of Catholics are contracepting but that does not mean the Catholic Church has failed. It means the ones contracepting have failed to grasp the Church’s teachings, and are committing sexual suicide.

Would the Barna group take polls from Catholics as they come out of Mass on Sunday, and get the same results as from a random telephone survey? I don’t think so.

My point exactly.

Frame of reference is everything in statistical studies.

The frame of reference here is “self-described Catholics”, not “Catholics in good standing” or “Churchgoing Catholics”, etc.

We therefore cannot extend the results to “Catholics in good standing” or “Churchgoind Catholics”, as the OP seems to have done.

 

[AKG]

Has anyone read this?

barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdateNarrow&BarnaUpdateID=274

What are your thoughts on a survey of Catholicism within the US, I think this represents a lot of fears those of us Evangelicals on the fence fear, not so much for us personally, but the “Luke warm” culture we may be brining are kids into and its impact on them. Not to mention why so many Evangelicals look down on Catholics. Please do not misunderstand me, I am not attacking Catholicism or necessarily supporting the article but would like to open a discussion on the state of Amercian Catholicism, its impact on America, how things got to where they are, are there signs of improvement and what can be done about it.

It just bears out the truth to me that we are a community of people who consistently fall short of the ideal set before us by Christ and the Church. This does not mean that we should throw up our hands, but should serve to encourage us to commit ourselves as disciples to humble obedience and to a habit of prayer. As the old saying goes, “It is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness.”

 

[mchale]

I would say that the survey demonstrates a huge bias by a simple statement that is made. Its definition of an “active faith” which required that a person read the bible, pray and go to church on a weekly basis. Thus, even though Catholics were more likely to attend mass and to pray, since they were less likely to read the bible regularly, they didn’t have that “active faith”. It shows a basic and old Protestant bias that reading the Bible is somehow essential to the faith rather than being an aid to encourage the faith. By this survey, some one who goes to church once a week, prays once a week and reads the Bible once a week has a more active faith than one who attends mass daily and spends time prayer each day. Mind you I am not denigrating reading the Bible, it is a good thing to do and a wonderful form of prayer, but it is not an absolute essential to having an active faith.

Now regarding the O.P. concern about a lukewarm culture. I am afraid that Evangelicals tend to believe that fired up congregations are the norm in Christendom. This belief I think is fed by the fact that most of them belong to churches that are only a generation or so old and tend to select out those who are not completely committed to that church. Amongst my Evangelical friends, I have also noticed a tendency to church shop. They will find a church they like and stay there for some months or years, but then leave when it no longer meets their ideal of a church. None of them belong to the same church they did 10 years ago. Meanwhile, most of the people who go to my Parish have been attending that Parish for most of their adult lives or in some cases, their entire lives (Myself included).

I don’t know, I think Evangelicals might confuse the slow and steady warmth of a good Catholic Parish with being lukewarm and the flash of religious zeal as being the norm when it is probably rarely sustainable.

–
Bill