Article: Consolation versus Desolation

[Lady_Love]

Great article for anyone who need assistance discerning the movements of their spirit.

ttp://www.ignatianspirituality.com/making-good-decisions/discernment-of-spirits/introduction-to-discernment-of-spirits/

Introduction to Discernment of Spirits

St. Ignatius of Loyola began to learn about the discernment of spirits while convalescing from serious battle injuries. He noticed different interior movements as he imagined his future. In his autobiography, Ignatius writes (in the third person):

He did not consider nor did he stop to examine this difference until one day his eyes were partially opened and he began to wonder at this difference and to reflect upon it. From experience he knew that some thoughts left him sad while others made him happy, and little by little he came to perceive the different spirits that were moving him; one coming from the devil, the other coming from God (Autobiography, no. 8).
Good and Evil Spirits

Ignatius believed that these interior movements were caused by “good spirits” and “evil spirits.” We want to follow the action of a good spirit and reject the action of an evil spirit. Discernment of spirits is a way to understand God’s will or desire for us in our life.

Talk of good and evil spirits may seem foreign to us. Psychology gives us other names for what Ignatius called good and evil spirits. Yet Ignatius’s language is useful because it recognizes the reality of evil. Evil is both greater than we are and part of who we are. Our hearts are divided between good and evil impulses. To call these “spirits” simply recognizes the spiritual dimension of this inner struggle.
Consolation and Desolation

The feelings stirred up by good and evil spirits are called “consolation” and “desolation” in the language of Ignatian spirituality.

Spiritual consolation is an experience of being so on fire with God’s love that we feel impelled to praise, love, and serve God and help others as best as we can. Spiritual consolation encourages and facilitates a deep sense of gratitude for God’s faithfulness, mercy, and companionship in our life. In consolation, we feel more alive and connected to others.

Spiritual desolation, in contrast, is an experience of the soul in heavy darkness or turmoil. We are assaulted by all sorts of doubts, bombarded by temptations, and mired in self-preoccupations. We are excessively restless and anxious and feel cut off from others. Such feelings, in Ignatius’s words, “move one toward lack of faith and leave one without hope and without love.”

The key question in interpreting consolation and desolation is: where is the movement coming from and where is it leading me? Spiritual consolation does not always mean happiness. Spiritual desolation does not always mean sadness. Sometimes an experience of sadness is a moment of conversion and intimacy with God. Times of human suffering can be moments of great grace. Similarly, peace or happiness can be illusory if these feelings are helping us avoid changes we need to make.
Rules for Discernment

In the Spiritual Exercises, Ignatius provides various rules for the discernment of spirits (Spiritual Exercises, 313–336). Good and evil spirits operate according to the spiritual condition of the individual.

For people who have closed themselves off from God’s grace, the good spirit disturbs and shakes up. It stirs feelings of remorse and discontent. The purpose is to make the person unhappy with a sinful way of life. On the other hand, the evil spirit wants such people to continue in their confusion and darkness. So the evil spirit tries to make them complacent, content, and satisfied with their distractions and pleasures.

For people who are trying to live a life pleasing to God, the good spirit strengthens, encourages, consoles, removes obstacles, and gives peace. The evil spirit tries to derail them by stirring up anxiety, false sadness, needless confusion, frustration, and other obstacles.

Discernment of spirits is a challenging task. It requires maturity, inner quiet, and an ability to reflect on one’s interior life. Discernment takes practice. It is something of an art. Ignatius Loyola’s rules for discernment provide a framework, not a program. We must be ready to improvise and adjust because God works in each of us so uniquely. That is why most counselors recommend undertaking discernment of spirits with the assistance of a spiritual director.

• See more at: ignatianspirituality.com/making-good-decisions/discernment-of-spirits/introduction-to-discernment-of-spirits/#sthash.bl3MBm0h.dpuf

 

[Skyhighblue34]

This answers a question on a post I was just about to make. Thank you so much!

 

[Robertanthony]

Great article for anyone who need assistance discerning the movements of their spirit.

ttp://www.ignatianspirituality.com/making-good-decisions/discernment-of-spirits/introduction-to-discernment-of-spirits/

Introduction to Discernment of Spirits

St. Ignatius of Loyola began to learn about the discernment of spirits while convalescing from serious battle injuries. He noticed different interior movements as he imagined his future. In his autobiography, Ignatius writes (in the third person):

He did not consider nor did he stop to examine this difference until one day his eyes were partially opened and he began to wonder at this difference and to reflect upon it. From experience he knew that some thoughts left him sad while others made him happy, and little by little he came to perceive the different spirits that were moving him; one coming from the devil, the other coming from God (Autobiography, no. 8).
Good and Evil Spirits

Ignatius believed that these interior movements were caused by “good spirits” and “evil spirits.” We want to follow the action of a good spirit and reject the action of an evil spirit. Discernment of spirits is a way to understand God’s will or desire for us in our life.

Talk of good and evil spirits may seem foreign to us. Psychology gives us other names for what Ignatius called good and evil spirits. Yet Ignatius’s language is useful because it recognizes the reality of evil. Evil is both greater than we are and part of who we are. Our hearts are divided between good and evil impulses. To call these “spirits” simply recognizes the spiritual dimension of this inner struggle.
Consolation and Desolation

The feelings stirred up by good and evil spirits are called “consolation” and “desolation” in the language of Ignatian spirituality.

Spiritual consolation is an experience of being so on fire with God’s love that we feel impelled to praise, love, and serve God and help others as best as we can. Spiritual consolation encourages and facilitates a deep sense of gratitude for God’s faithfulness, mercy, and companionship in our life. In consolation, we feel more alive and connected to others.

Spiritual desolation, in contrast, is an experience of the soul in heavy darkness or turmoil. We are assaulted by all sorts of doubts, bombarded by temptations, and mired in self-preoccupations. We are excessively restless and anxious and feel cut off from others. Such feelings, in Ignatius’s words, “move one toward lack of faith and leave one without hope and without love.”

The key question in interpreting consolation and desolation is: where is the movement coming from and where is it leading me? Spiritual consolation does not always mean happiness. Spiritual desolation does not always mean sadness. Sometimes an experience of sadness is a moment of conversion and intimacy with God. Times of human suffering can be moments of great grace. Similarly, peace or happiness can be illusory if these feelings are helping us avoid changes we need to make.
Rules for Discernment

In the Spiritual Exercises, Ignatius provides various rules for the discernment of spirits (Spiritual Exercises, 313–336). Good and evil spirits operate according to the spiritual condition of the individual.

For people who have closed themselves off from God’s grace, the good spirit disturbs and shakes up. It stirs feelings of remorse and discontent. The purpose is to make the person unhappy with a sinful way of life. On the other hand, the evil spirit wants such people to continue in their confusion and darkness. So the evil spirit tries to make them complacent, content, and satisfied with their distractions and pleasures.

For people who are trying to live a life pleasing to God, the good spirit strengthens, encourages, consoles, removes obstacles, and gives peace. The evil spirit tries to derail them by stirring up anxiety, false sadness, needless confusion, frustration, and other obstacles.

Discernment of spirits is a challenging task. It requires maturity, inner quiet, and an ability to reflect on one’s interior life. Discernment takes practice. It is something of an art. Ignatius Loyola’s rules for discernment provide a framework, not a program. We must be ready to improvise and adjust because God works in each of us so uniquely. That is why most counselors recommend undertaking discernment of spirits with the assistance of a spiritual director.

• See more at: ignatianspirituality.com/making-good-decisions/discernment-of-spirits/introduction-to-discernment-of-spirits/#sthash.bl3MBm0h.dpuf

Digression. In every spirit of desolation I find myself in, I have a special thought for Adam. Talk about a wretched inheritance to leave behind. Hopefully he’s in hell. The Church has not ruled one way or the other, so hope is warranted. End of digression.

 

[billcu1]

Great article for anyone who need assistance discerning the movements of their spirit.

ttp://www.ignatianspirituality.com/making-good-decisions/discernment-of-spirits/introduction-to-discernment-of-spirits/

Introduction to Discernment of Spirits

St. Ignatius of Loyola began to learn about the discernment of spirits while convalescing from serious battle injuries. He noticed different interior movements as he imagined his future. In his autobiography, Ignatius writes (in the third person):

He did not consider nor did he stop to examine this difference until one day his eyes were partially opened and he began to wonder at this difference and to reflect upon it. From experience he knew that some thoughts left him sad while others made him happy, and little by little he came to perceive the different spirits that were moving him; one coming from the devil, the other coming from God (Autobiography, no. 8).
Good and Evil Spirits

Ignatius believed that these interior movements were caused by “good spirits” and “evil spirits.” We want to follow the action of a good spirit and reject the action of an evil spirit. Discernment of spirits is a way to understand God’s will or desire for us in our life.

Talk of good and evil spirits may seem foreign to us. Psychology gives us other names for what Ignatius called good and evil spirits. Yet Ignatius’s language is useful because it recognizes the reality of evil. Evil is both greater than we are and part of who we are. Our hearts are divided between good and evil impulses. To call these “spirits” simply recognizes the spiritual dimension of this inner struggle.
Consolation and Desolation

The feelings stirred up by good and evil spirits are called “consolation” and “desolation” in the language of Ignatian spirituality.

Spiritual consolation is an experience of being so on fire with God’s love that we feel impelled to praise, love, and serve God and help others as best as we can. Spiritual consolation encourages and facilitates a deep sense of gratitude for God’s faithfulness, mercy, and companionship in our life. In consolation, we feel more alive and connected to others.

Spiritual desolation, in contrast, is an experience of the soul in heavy darkness or turmoil. We are assaulted by all sorts of doubts, bombarded by temptations, and mired in self-preoccupations. We are excessively restless and anxious and feel cut off from others. Such feelings, in Ignatius’s words, “move one toward lack of faith and leave one without hope and without love.”

The key question in interpreting consolation and desolation is: where is the movement coming from and where is it leading me? Spiritual consolation does not always mean happiness. Spiritual desolation does not always mean sadness. Sometimes an experience of sadness is a moment of conversion and intimacy with God. Times of human suffering can be moments of great grace. Similarly, peace or happiness can be illusory if these feelings are helping us avoid changes we need to make.
Rules for Discernment

In the Spiritual Exercises, Ignatius provides various rules for the discernment of spirits (Spiritual Exercises, 313–336). Good and evil spirits operate according to the spiritual condition of the individual.

For people who have closed themselves off from God’s grace, the good spirit disturbs and shakes up. It stirs feelings of remorse and discontent. The purpose is to make the person unhappy with a sinful way of life. On the other hand, the evil spirit wants such people to continue in their confusion and darkness. So the evil spirit tries to make them complacent, content, and satisfied with their distractions and pleasures.

For people who are trying to live a life pleasing to God, the good spirit strengthens, encourages, consoles, removes obstacles, and gives peace. The evil spirit tries to derail them by stirring up anxiety, false sadness, needless confusion, frustration, and other obstacles.

Discernment of spirits is a challenging task. It requires maturity, inner quiet, and an ability to reflect on one’s interior life. Discernment takes practice. It is something of an art. Ignatius Loyola’s rules for discernment provide a framework, not a program. We must be ready to improvise and adjust because God works in each of us so uniquely. That is why most counselors recommend undertaking discernment of spirits with the assistance of a spiritual director.

• See more at: ignatianspirituality.com/making-good-decisions/discernment-of-spirits/introduction-to-discernment-of-spirits/#sthash.bl3MBm0h.dpuf

I know when I think about going to Mass and seeking absolution I feel great about it. Then lazy about it. Feelings like oh it doesn’t matter or it doesn’t have to be done right away or I don’t feel like going come. I don’t know if this is something outside of me or not. I wouldn’t be suprised if it was.

 

[Lady_Love]

Digression. In every spirit of desolation I find myself in, I have a special thought for Adam. Talk about a wretched inheritance to leave behind. Hopefully he’s in hell. The Church has not ruled one way or the other, so hope is warranted. End of digression.

I am positive that Adam and Eve repented but I wouldn’t be surprised if they are the last ones out of purgatory, poor souls. I am still grateful for them, without their fall, God may not have taken on human flesh and became one of us. For this reason, it is like St. Augustine said, “O Blessed Fault of Adam!” Now, because God became human we get to partake of divinity in the Eucharist!

 

[nuntym]

• JMJ +

Adam and Eve are saints of the Catholic Church, feast day December 24.

Source: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=52168

 

[Robertanthony]

I am positive that Adam and Eve repented but I wouldn’t be surprised if they are the last ones out of purgatory, poor souls. I am still grateful for them, without their fall, God may not have taken on human flesh and became one of us. For this reason, it is like St. Augustine said, “O Blessed Fault of Adam!” Now, because God became human we get to partake of divinity in the Eucharist!

Sin entered the world, possibly millions of souls are in eternal hell, how many people lived on this planet thinking God was against them, never–not one second- enjoying the friendship and closeness that A&E enjoyed with God, Jesus’ incarnation didn’t restore the world to its former state, the Eucharist is a poor consolation prize for what has been lost. Jesus is a plan B, a very poor plan B. If A&E hadn’t messed up, you’d still partake of God’s divinity after a life spent with no disease, no sin, no human misery inside and outside you etc. If you were forced to choose, for your eternity, between the Beatific Vision and the Eucharist without the Beatific Vision, what would you choose? If Augustine hadn’t had his mom praying for his conversion for 16 years, he might have died as an impenitent fornicator, would he still call Adam’s fault “blessed”? I mean, apart from Augustine, how many sinners have a saint as a mom praying for them for 16 years? What a bunch of baloney. Jesus is God’s plan B, the Eucharist is nothing compared /vastly inferior to the Beatific Vision, so what’s the big fuss about the weekly Eucharist? People are so lovey dovey and irrational. So lots of people would rather live in a fallen world with the Eucharist than live in the untainted Garden of Eden without it? Come on now.

 

[Robertanthony]

• JMJ +

Adam and Eve are saints of the Catholic Church, feast day December 24.

Source: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=52168

I’ll wait until I hear the Pope call on Saint Adam, meanwhile I’ll treat it as an unfortunate “urban” legend. The good thief crucified next to Jesus is also a venerable saint, I suppose?

 

[Lady_Love]

Sin entered the world, possibly millions of souls are in eternal hell, how many people lived on this planet thinking God was against them, never–not one second- enjoying the friendship and closeness that A&E enjoyed with God, Jesus’ incarnation didn’t restore the world to its former state, the Eucharist is a poor consolation prize for what has been lost. Jesus is a plan B, a very poor plan B. If A&E hadn’t messed up, you’d still partake of God’s divinity after a life spent with no disease, no sin, no human misery inside and outside you etc. If you were forced to choose, for your eternity, between the Beatific Vision and the Eucharist without the Beatific Vision, what would you choose? If Augustine hadn’t had his mom praying for his conversion for 16 years, he might have died as an impenitent fornicator, would he still call Adam’s fault “blessed”? I mean, apart from Augustine, how many sinners have a saint as a mom praying for them for 16 years? What a bunch of baloney. Jesus is God’s plan B, the Eucharist is nothing compared /vastly inferior to the Beatific Vision, so what’s the big fuss about the weekly Eucharist? People are so lovey dovey and irrational. So lots of people would rather live in a fallen world with the Eucharist than live in the untainted Garden of Eden without it? Come on now.

You sound jaded. You sound like someone who has been deeply hurt by others’ actions. You might want to tend to those wounds and work on forgiveness. I am also picking up on a little pride/blame, that your misery is someone else’ fault. God gives everyone the grace of relationship with Him and He is always available. It is us that chooses to love other than Him. The greatest injustice ever was committed against God Himself, who created us out of love, had mercy on our first parents, provided us another way to return to Him, gave up glory, honor, majesty, to become one of us (intimately through Eucharist) and what did we do? We spit on Him, insulted Him, brutalized Him, scorned Him, mocked Him, tortured Him, and killed Him. And all He wanted was to love us and save us.

 

[vames]

Jesus is a plan B, a very poor plan B.

This is one theory - that the Incarnation is explained and motivated by the sin of man. You know - Felix culpa, O happy fault that merited such and so great a Redeemer. But it’s not the only theory. The other one says that Jesus would have become man even if man hadn’t sinned:
franciscans.beimler.org/Incarnation%20Spirituality.html
absoluteprimacyofchrist.org/cur-deus-homo/
absoluteprimacyofchrist.org/scotus-writings/

And from St Irenaeus:

Irenaeus repeatedly insists that God created the world and has been overseeing it ever since. Everything that has happened is part of his plan for humanity. The essence of this plan is maturation: Irenaeus believes that humanity was created immature, and God intended his creatures to take time to grow into his likeness. Thus, Adam and Eve were created as children. Their Fall was thus not a full-blown rebellion but a childish spat, a desire to grow up before their time and have everything now.

Everything that has happened since has therefore been directed by God to help humanity overcome this and grow up. The world has been designed by God as a difficult place, where human beings are forced to make moral decisions - only in this way can they mature. Irenaeus likens death to the whale that swallowed Jonah: it was only in the depths of the whale’s belly that Jonah could turn to God and do his will. Similarly, death and suffering appear evil, but without them we could never come to know God.

The high point in salvation history is Jesus Christ. Irenaeus believes that Christ would always have been sent, even if humanity had never sinned; but the fact that they did sin determines his role as a saviour. He sees Christ as the new Adam, who systematically undoes what Adam did: thus, where Adam was disobedient about the fruit of a tree, Christ was obedient even to death on the wood of a tree. Irenaeus is the first to draw comparisons between Eve and the Theotokos, contrasting the faithlessness of the former with the faithfulness of the latter. In addition to reversing the wrongs done by Adam, Irenaeus thinks of Christ as “recapitulating” or “summing up” human life. This means that Christ goes through every stage of human life, from infancy to old age, and simply by living it, sanctifies it with his divinity. Irenaeus is therefore forced to argue that Christ did not die until he was quite old!

Irenaeus thus thinks that our salvation comes about, essentially, through the incarnation of God as man. He characterises the penalty for sin as death and corruption. God, however, is immortal and incorruptible, and simply by becoming united to human nature in Christ he conveys those qualities to us: they spread, as it were, like a benign infection. Irenaeus therefore understands the atonement of Christ as happening through his incarnation rather than his crucifixion, although the latter is an integral part of the former.

orthodoxwiki.org/Irenaeus_of_Lyons

 

[Robertanthony]

You sound jaded. You sound like someone who has been deeply hurt by others’ actions. You might want to tend to those wounds and work on forgiveness. I am also picking up on a little pride/blame, that your misery is someone else’ fault. God gives everyone the grace of relationship with Him and He is always available. It is us that chooses to love other than Him. The greatest injustice ever was committed against God Himself, who created us out of love, had mercy on our first parents, provided us another way to return to Him, gave up glory, honor, majesty, to become one of us (intimately through Eucharist) and what did we do? We spit on Him, insulted Him, brutalized Him, scorned Him, mocked Him, tortured Him, and killed Him. And all He wanted was to love us and save us.

You’re right. But there is no working on the wounds because all the conditions that were present for those wounds to occur are still with me. I still can’t learn properly, I still have no memory, the learning capacity of a jellyfish, I’m scatterbrained, shy, afraid of being humiliated/ignored/hurt by others, I am still needy, needing approval, confirmation, human relation like you wouldn’t believe, I’m still hypersensitive, easily anxious, I am an easy target for pretty much every one. Wherever I go, my dull and introverted personality also goes, I am apparently “fearfully and wonderfully made” p) but not enough for the world, no use working on closing/healing a wound that anyone on any day will easily reopen with God’s full blessing. You can’t have your pride trampled underfoot too many times, all the more so if you have deep-seated issues of self-acceptance/worth/esteem and of inadequacy and shame. I WILL carry this heavy load into eternity, only to be told by my “loving” father that I’m sentenced to eternal hell.

Who made me? Who made me ill-equipped to face life? I didn't make myself, i wouldn't have made myself, give me whatever was between Jesus' ears (his grey matter if you will) and I won't be miserable. God has done me wrong, why would a God of "love" create someone whom he knows will reject him and life? Jesus chose to be incarnate and suffer, I did not, that is something my "loving" God pushed down my throat. I don't want to be around, not in this joke of  a life that God has ordained for me form all eternity. God, the one who makes people who only want to die live to be 95, while beloved fathers of 10 young children die, begging God to let them live, God sustains the abusive and incestuous father, makes him outlive his children's beloved mother, was giving life to Ricardo Lopez (singer Bjork's stalker in the 90's) an act of love by God (knowing he'd live with heart-breaking loneliness and soul-crushing depression, and would ultimately act out in anger)?

Why people keep mentioning God’s love when his track record is anything but love? But he sent Jesus, right? The three hours of intense suffering by Jesus is a stupid and meaningless drop in an endless sea of human misery down the ages. I can’t bring myself to love someone who hasn’t helped me c-o-n-c-r-e-t-e-l-y in times of disarray and devastation, the only thing keeping my “loving” God from truly rescuing me is his will, he wills to prosper my enemies, though. The only day that can match the curse of my conception is the day I heard about God. I deserve eternal misery for this, right, not reciprocating God’s awesome “love”? There must be a way to repay God for all the human misery suffered down the ages. Why was Jesus born without the stain of original sin? Must be awfully hard to resist sin: 100% human, 100% divine, no original sin, no concupiscence, no attraction to sin. I mean he was just like us. We hear a great deal about God’s justice, how is it just that I was born with original sin when Adam sinned? Of course you know the trite answers to all these torturing questions? God’s ways are so far above our ways, or, who are you to judge God? Sadly, I am alive to behold all these contradictions and to experience the bitterness of life with no end in sight. You’re right, Lady Love, I’m jaded.

It’s such a curse to have a human heart and to be so awkward and unable to connect with people for fear of being exposed as the joke of a human being God has made me. How many people will go thru life not being able to count the tears of a life with no love, only to die and be sent to hell because they could not love our God of “love”? Hell should be the only argument needed for someone trying to prove God is anything but a god of love. I understand people fear hell, just like people living under tyrannical regimes are afraid of speaking their minds, so they’ll just say that God is this or that, knowing full well, inasmuch as they’ll be honest with themselves, that they don’t believe a word of it. I just can’t bring myself to pretend God is something he is not. If I had loads of money to live well and to live my dreams i wouldn’t spend one minute on these torturing thoughts. But since I’m stagnant, frustrated and resentful, may as well dig to find out why. God has disqualified himself as a worthy and credible confidant, but I need to express these things or I will implode, hence the endless novel. I have reason to believe God has been less stingy and shabby with you (than he has with me), so a heartfelt God bless you.

 

[Lady_Love]

…but I need to express these things or I will implode, hence the endless novel. I have reason to believe God has been less stingy and shabby with you (than he has with me), so a heartfelt God bless you.

You might be surprised by this but I understand you. I have not been without my crosses, ones that go very deep, ones that affect my reaction, my thought process, my fears, my doubts, etc. I have, like you, been nearly drowned in the pit of self-hatred. I too have suffered horror at the hands of someone else. I too, have been filled with rage, self-loathing, wishing to die rather than live… I suffered a head injury, which caused me to have many limitations and to suffer PTSD. I, too, was loathsome to others, especially to myself.

You are not alone in your experience.

I was severely oppressed but I sought help. Actually, when I sought help, often I would feel worse than before but I knew I didn’t want to live the way I was living/thinking/feeling and I had to find a NEW way. There were times I felt as though there was a wrestling match over my soul. I was very frightened but I said with as much confidence as possible, “I BELONG TO GOD! Do with me what you want but you can’t have me!”

I feel your pain. You have my heart and I want you to know, that on the other side of misery is joy. Don’t give up on God. I remember feeling as you, that God was NOT good but that was satan’s voice that was whispering. He wanted my soul and was tormenting me with thoughts that accused God of being evil. I fought hard searching the scriptures for descriptions of God, “He is merciful, He is kind, He saves, etc.” Satan was trying to pass himself off as God. Satan is a liar and he hates you, he wants to steal your joy, your heaven, your relationship with God. Tell him to “**** off!”

Call on the name of Jesus. You are under serious attack and I will be praying for you. Get to confession ASAP because satan “desires to sift you like wheat.”

 

[SecretaryMonday]

You are not alone in your experience.

 This is true, Robert Anthony. I see many things in your "endless novel" that are familiar to me. I am also dull and introverted. I rarely talk because I have nothing to say. I don't seem to be able to receive love very well; even when people are kind to me, I don't feel it. For several years I believed that I was predestined to Hell; I was hurt, sad and confused, but most of all, I was angry. 

 People said to go to the bible for comfort and peace; they didn't realize that when someone is in such a state of mind as mine was, they may need help to see anything good, because when they try to study alone they will find only horrible things in scripture.

When I looked through the bible to find out if it was really true that God had love for each person as an individual (rather than just a tolerance of humanity in general), I found a God who was not concerned for me.
When I tried to find the plan of salvation that extended to the gentiles, I found only a very meager and hopeless plan of salvation that almost didn’t save even the Jews, the chosen people.
I didn’t see much difference between God and Satan; they seemed to be the same. I wanted to be as good and kind as I possibly could, just so that I could mock God from Hell for condemning an innocent person before they were even born.
Let me share one thing that was somewhat helpful (I hope it will not offend; it isn't very doctrinally sound, it's just an experience): I wanted to punish God for crimes against humanity. I wanted justice. I thought that, if Jesus had not been killed, I would have killed Him myself. Then I realized that God had already answered my prayers; He, whom it was impossible to touch or harm, united Himself to a body that could be abused, and He allowed us to kill Him as a criminal. God humbled Himself appease my sense of justice by giving Himself over to be killed. A cruel despot would have either ignored or killed me instead; only a very good God would have let me kill Him. Therefore, He could not be truly unjust or unloving, and I would have killed an innocent Man.

 

[BobCatholic]

• JMJ +

Adam and Eve are saints of the Catholic Church, feast day December 24.

Source: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=52168

Source links are both broken.

I think Adam and Eve are horrible people. Their utter selfishness caused all their children to suffer.

 

[Robertanthony]

Source links are both broken.

I think Adam and Eve are horrible people. Their utter selfishness caused all their children to suffer.

So, Bob, will you raise your glass for “saints” Adam and Eve this coming Christmas eve? I can’t think of an inheritance that could be any worse than the one they left behind. Both links are dead, is there no symbolism in that?

 

[Robertanthony]

This is true, Robert Anthony. I see many things in your “endless novel” that are familiar to me. I am also dull and introverted. I rarely talk because I have nothing to say. I don’t seem to be able to receive love very well; even when people are kind to me, I don’t feel it. For several years I believed that I was predestined to Hell; I was hurt, sad and confused, but most of all, I was angry.

 People said to go to the bible for comfort and peace; they didn't realize that when someone is in such a state of mind as mine was, they may need help to see anything good, because when they try to study alone they will find only horrible things in scripture.

When I looked through the bible to find out if it was really true that God had love for each person as an individual (rather than just a tolerance of humanity in general), I found a God who was not concerned for me.
When I tried to find the plan of salvation that extended to the gentiles, I found only a very meager and hopeless plan of salvation that almost didn’t save even the Jews, the chosen people.
I didn’t see much difference between God and Satan; they seemed to be the same. I wanted to be as good and kind as I possibly could, just so that I could mock God from Hell for condemning an innocent person before they were even born.

 Let me share one thing that was somewhat helpful (I hope it will not offend; it isn't very doctrinally sound, it's just an experience): I wanted to punish God for crimes against humanity. I wanted justice. I thought that, if Jesus had not been killed, I would have killed Him myself. Then I realized that God had already answered my prayers; He, whom it was impossible to touch or harm, united Himself to a body that could be abused, and He allowed us to kill Him as a criminal. God humbled Himself appease my sense of justice by giving Himself over to be killed. A cruel despot would have either ignored or killed me instead; only a very good God would have let me kill Him. Therefore, He could not be truly unjust or unloving, and I would have killed an innocent Man.

Yeah the more time I spend here, the more I realize I’m not alone in my views, ideas, thoughts, doubts etc. I don’t connect easily with people, this place makes communicating for socially inept people like myself much easier.

 

[BobCatholic]

So, Bob, will you raise your glass for “saints” Adam and Eve this coming Christmas eve? I can’t think of an inheritance that could be any worse than the one they left behind. Both links are dead, is there no symbolism in that?

I have no reason to raise my glass to either of them.

At this point I have no proof they’re saints at all. I think they’re horrible people.

 

[fred_conty]

I have no reason to raise my glass to either of them.

At this point I have no proof they’re saints at all. I think they’re horrible people.

I bet you can’t feel any worse about them then they do about themselves. It was weakness.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[Robertanthony]

I bet you can’t feel any worse about them then they do about themselves. It was weakness.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

The saddest and most tragic part about the Fall though is the millions of people who will have gone through life convinced that God was against them and treated him accordingly, died to find an angry judge eager to destroy them body and soul, with eternal misery to contemplate. Meanwhile Adam is in cool Heaven sipping the most exquisite red wine, listening to angels playing harps around him, having pleasant and enlightening conversations with God, lacking in nothing, his heart overflowing with joy and gladness. What’s not to love about God’s system, right?

 

[fred_conty]

The saddest and most tragic part about the Fall though is the millions of people who will have gone through life convinced that God was against them and treated him accordingly, died to find an angry judge eager to destroy them body and soul, with eternal misery to contemplate. Meanwhile Adam is in cool Heaven sipping the most exquisite red wine, listening to angels playing harps around him, having pleasant and enlightening conversations with God, lacking in nothing, his heart overflowing with joy and gladness. What’s not to love about God’s system, right?

In one way it is our system as well, for we are still doing wrong. And wrong begets wrong.

If there were no wrong in the world it would be wonderful. No keys or jails. Employers would treat employees with fairness and kindness. No lieing cheating or stealing. Fraud would be non existent. Bills would be paid. Schools would be peaceful. Kids would treat each other well. No drunkenness, or adultery. Families would be strong. Prices would be fair. Need I go on? It would be almost heaven on earth.

So we share in the mess. But we look forward to the resurrection when all will be right.

May God our Father give you grace and peace.