Articles on "Separated Brethren"

[Denise1957]

"Augustine, while loving the role of the church and the preacher, still said “He (Christ) teaches us”.

Why else would the Lord give us spiritual ears for His voice also?

I agree. How else are we to grow in holiness as our Lord expects of us, unless He teaches us. For Catholics, we have recourse to the sacraments to help us along. It isn’t an easy thing for most of us to do what our Lord instructed, in loving God with all of our heart, mind and strength, and our neighbor as ourselves. It’s a process which requires that we strive to be loyal disciples, and allow ourselves to be transformed by Him.

 

[Denise1957]

God bless you Denise for I chuckle a bit, with a smile, at how you are a die hard for your Catholic Church. We should expect no less.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

I agree. How else are we to grow in holiness as our Lord expects of us, unless He teaches us. For Catholics, we have recourse to the sacraments to help us along. It isn’t an easy thing for most of us to do what our Lord instructed, in loving God with all of our heart, mind and strength, and our neighbor as ourselves. It’s a process which requires that we strive to be loyal disciples, and allow ourselves to be transformed by Him.

Amen.

 

[Bballer32]

Jesus’ church is not invisible. It is not contained in a building but in the hearts of all those who love and obey Him. They assemble together with a common bond - the one who have given them the Comforter to guide them in their lives and to help them fulfill their purpose. The purpose of those who serve Him is not to cause division - yet some do. However, even those who are not in your church are still in the church that Jesus started, and it is not invisible. Like it or not, we are all parts of the same body - gifted and given to serve as He wills.

We are all parts of the same body, and we do all have different roles. However, when one part of the body is teaching something totally contrary to another, then clearly it is not a part of that Bodily system. You cannot be preaching something totally different to what I’m preaching if we follow the same Jesus Christ. Those may be parts of a bodily system but they definitely are not part of the same body.

Christ’s body is many parts but of the same body. I do not like it when Protestants and other “Christians” use this as a defense of not belonging to a certain Church. It’s flawed. It’s an excuse for religious and dogmatic pluralism and destroys the body of Christ rather than unites it. I’ll tell you what this passage means. The one Body is Jesus Christ and his Church. The parts are: marriages, clergy, nuns, monks, traditionalists, charismatics, youth ministries, chaplains, hospitals, Universities, rich people, poor people. ALL OF THESE PEOPLE CONTINUE TO PREACH THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST IN UNION WITH HIS BRIDE, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

And there are many who truly do have the love in Christ in their lives and hearts. They preach the gospel message - which is not quite as complicated as some may believe - and work to build the Kingdom of God.

See above response

The valuable words here are “truth” and “love.” Nowhere did Jesus say His church would be labeled as one denomination, nor did He say it would be many. Jesus did tell us how people will know who are His - and it had nothing to do with a membership roster after having graduated from catechism. That was never a requirement to be saved or to serve as He directs.

Tell me, Riser, how do you know what Truth is? Who told you what is the right interpretation about the Bible and what is the Wrong interpretation about the Bible? How do you know it is true?

Also, why do you keep bringing up RCIA? I never have understood your purpose for that.

Those are man-made traditions which Jesus did not teach. We are baptized into ONE BODY - not one organization. There are as many true Christians in the Protestant churches as there are in the Catholic ones, yet people on both sides make false accusations against the other. How can the church stand against the prince of this world when we won’t work together?

Jesus did not teach the disciples to “go and make me a bible for all of the people to read and interpret on their own accord”. You do realize that the Bible came about during the synod of Hippo in 393 A.D. which is almost 400 years after Christ’s death?

Work together? Well, we could do that if all of you came back home to the Bride of Christ. It’s hard for us to work together when Protestants hold teachings that are anti-Christian and anti-Trinitarian.

 

[Bballer32]

Yes, the Father draws us to Christ and Christ to the Father. “No man seeks after God.” Yet He says “seek and ye shall find”. He, as you say, places the desire, even will for the Father in us, where it once was not.

But he does also place the “answer”, wisdom, understanding in a man. That is what Elihu said.

“We know all things for, little children, you have an unction from the Holy Ghost.” (John’s epistle paraphrased). Yet we see things “darkly as thru a glass” relative to when we see Him face to face.(Paul) .

The same divine revelation from the Father that happened to Peter about “whom is Christ” happens to us all, not just clergy.

Augustine, while loving the role of the church and the preacher, still said “He (Christ) teaches us”.

Why else would the Lord give us spiritual ears for His voice also?

I guess I’m not entirely sure as to what you are getting at here. Sorry about that

 

[Burdock]

We are all parts of the same body, and we do all have different roles. However, when one part of the body is teaching something totally contrary to another, then clearly it is not a part of that Bodily system. You cannot be preaching something totally different to what I’m preaching if we follow the same Jesus Christ. Those may be parts of a bodily system but they definitely are not part of the same body.

Christ’s body is many parts but of the same body. I do not like it when Protestants and other “Christians” use this as a defense of not belonging to a certain Church. It’s flawed. It’s an excuse for religious and dogmatic pluralism and destroys the body of Christ rather than unites it. I’ll tell you what this passage means. The one Body is Jesus Christ and his Church. The parts are: marriages, clergy, nuns, monks, traditionalists, charismatics, youth ministries, chaplains, hospitals, Universities, rich people, poor people. ALL OF THESE PEOPLE CONTINUE TO PREACH THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST IN UNION WITH HIS BRIDE, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
Therevwas a split in the church before the reformation.

See above response

Tell me, Riser, how do you know what Truth is? Who told you what is the right interpretation about the Bible and what is the Wrong interpretation about the Bible? How do you know it is true?

Also, why do you keep bringing up RCIA? I never have understood your purpose for that.

Jesus did not teach the disciples to “go and make me a bible for all of the people to read and interpret on their own accord”. You do realize that the Bible came about during the synod of Hippo in 393 A.D. which is almost 400 years after Christ’s death?

Work together? Well, we could do that if all of you came back home to the Bride of Christ. It’s hard for us to work together when Protestants hold teachings that are anti-Christian and anti-Trinitarian.

 

[Peter_J]

I found this quote from Cardinal Cushing of Boston back in the prime of Billy Graham’s crusades on an anti-Catholic blog site that was ironically using it to accuse Billy Graham of having been too friendly with Catholics.

That doesn’t surprise me, because I’ve seen the same thing done in reverse to Catholic leaders like Cardinal Kasper. For example, one blogger dismissively described the Cardinal’s ecumenical efforts as “political correctness [and] bonhomie”.

 

[Peter_J]

I chuckle a bit, with a smile, at how you are a die hard for your Catholic Church. **We should expect no less.
**

Well, I don’t know (and am not planning on asking) what you consider “die hard”, but this ^^ sort of opinion seems to be predominant among Protestant posters. And you have every right to it, of course; but conversely I have every right to decide not to follow your advice.

 

[benhur]

I guess I’m not entirely sure as to what you are getting at here. Sorry about that

Simple. You said God puts the desire for truth in us but not the answer to truth. I agreed with former but not latter. I said He not only gives us the desire for truth but also the answer to that desire, even truth itself. You stressed revelation by church and I added the final revelation by God Himself to the individual. It is both corporate and individual revelation.

 

[benhur]

Well, I don’t know (and am not planning on asking) what you consider “die hard”, but this ^^ sort of opinion seems to be predominant among Protestant posters. And you have every right to it, of course; but conversely I have every right to decide not to follow your advice.

Sorry Peter . It was a light hearted remark not opinion.( though you speculate though not knowing what I consider ?).

Loyalty, steadfastness, even stubbornness for what one believes is right are admirable qualities, hence the smile. The chuckle to relieve the tension from the reality that I wish she were on the other side on the matter, to be of like mind, kindred even.

Blessings

 

[Abu]

Benhur #189
You stressed revelation by church and I added the final revelation by God Himself to the individual. It is both corporate and individual revelation.

The revelation by God Himself is Jesus the Christ who mandated that we follow His Church as you try to keep avoiding.

There is no “individual revelation” which can possibly run counter to that – God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit would be contradicting themselves!

But Jesus is The Way, the Truth and the Life, and He founded only His Church and no other. Further, “I shall not leave you orphans” – so there is no excuse to deny Him His Kingship.

 

[MaryT777]

The revelation by God Himself is Jesus the Christ who mandated that we follow His Church as you try to keep avoiding.

There is no “individual revelation” which can possibly run counter to that – God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit would be contradicting themselves!

But Jesus is The Way, the Truth and the Life, and He founded only His Church and no other. Further, “I shall not leave you orphans” – so there is no excuse to deny Him His Kingship.

 

[Riser]

So… where are the miracles, signs and wonders that must accompany your direct calling by God, as verification? Jesus Himself submitted to this proof-test, so I wouldn’t be too quick to exempt yourself from this same test, unless of course you wish to say you are greater than Jesus.

As this link demonstrates, scripturally, there is only one way to become a legitimate ambassador of Christ: by appointment from a superior. This can be done in two ways: being commissioned by a legitimate ambassador (apostolic succession), or being called directly by God. Ss. Timothy and Titus were appointed to their positions of authority by succession, Moses and St. Paul were appointed to their positions directly by God, with no human mediation.

Scripture also does not speak well of those who illegitimately take this position upon themselves. In the book of Acts, illegitimate leaders attempted to confuse the Christians by claiming that circumcision was necessary for salvation. The Council of Jerusalem commented upon this, saying: “…we have heard that some persons from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions…” (Acts 15:24). Note well what is presumed here: that it was wrong of these men to act in such a way without first having received their commission, their “instructions,” from those in legitimate authority.

You assume too much. You don’t know me or what I do, yet you seem to wish to criticize me for what I do and hold that God is not permitted to choose me except though your understanding.

Is there any text in the Bible that addresses people who make false accusations? How about those who claim to know a truth when they really have no clue?

Your Catholic apologetics are held as true by those who wish to accept it as true, so if you wish to prove something Biblically, you probably should use the Bible.

There are legalistic brethren among all the denominations, and their assumed pride in their denomination has splintered the church that God has established. Corruption and pride has caused this division between Catholics and Protestants, and with the prevailing attitude displayed in this thread; it is likely to continue.

If I were to trace the statements made in this thread and compare them to the Sermon on the Mount, how many of those blessed characteristics would I recognize here?

Ever consider that some of the beliefs I read here necessitate that we hold God as a powerless being who must follow Catholic Apologetics?

I wonder what God thinks about that?

 

[Peter_J]

It was a light hearted remark not opinion.

Fair enough.

Also, it occurs to me that it might have been more productive if I had instead posed a question to you and the rest of my “separated brethren” (that is, NC Christians) on this thread …

Some years ago while I was having lunch with a friend – a fellow Catholic – he commented that, if a Protestant isn’t converting to Catholicism, then the next best thing is for him/her to be anti-Catholic.

My question for you and other Protestant (or Eastern Orthodox) posters is: how do you like those apples?

 

[Riser]

I think the arrogance displayed here is what causes angst among the brethren.

1. For the Catholic, it seems, no Protestant knows the true Gospel Message.
2. For the Catholic, no non-Catholic can have the fullness of the faith.
3. Everyone who is a Protestant now picked up their ball and went home.

I know of a man who told me, I did not leave the Democratic Party, it left me. Ever consider that this is to the view of many when Martin Luther wrote his thesis? It can easily be seen that some felt that the Catholic church had failed them.

I feel that it is true that many Protestants need to get over themselves, but I see the same issue resides on the Catholic side of the division.

If any of you enjoy the division, the “I know the truth and you don’t” attitude, there is not amount of discussion that will help with understanding.

At one time, I thought that I would enjoy discussing things with kindred minds, but I see that doesn’t work here. I am so grateful that the Catholic brethren I work with don’t have the same attitude that I have seen here.

 

[Abu]

Riser #195
At one time, I thought that I would enjoy discussing things with kindred minds, but I see that doesn’t work here. I am so grateful that the Catholic brethren I work with don’t have the same attitude that I have seen here.

There are some Catholics who don’t know their faith, some only want to believe what suits them – offering the fullness of Christ in His Truth is what is expected here – not doublespeak and ambiguity.

This mirage of substitutions is what Riser offers:

as I read responses written here; it seems that largely, Catholics follow the church rather than Jesus. #106]

Christianity is not a religion
My Bible tells me what I am to do. I cannot find in it that I must be a member of the Catholic faith in order to obtain salvation. #46]

As for my not being able to know the fullness of His truth; just how do you know that? Aren’t you making a huge assumption in that statement? [Post #139]

But it was Our Lord Himself who gave us His Catholic Church and proclaimed “The truth shall set you free.” [Jn 8:32].

 

[Peter_J]

I know of a man who told me, I did not leave the Democratic Party, it left me. Ever consider that this is to the view of many when Martin Luther wrote his thesis?

Of course. I don’t agree with it, but I have considered it – and not only that, but I can relate to it inasmuch as I say the same to the Orthodox that you are saying to us: “We didn’t leave you, you left us.”

 

[benhur]

The revelation by God Himself is Jesus the Christ who mandated that we follow His Church as you try to keep avoiding.

Amen. There is only one church, the called out ones. I (we) have ben called out, and He placed me (us) in His ecclesia. I (we) have a local congregation, with presbyters, teachers, healers . I (we) have catholic(universal) beliefs that is, a connection to all other congregations, the Body of Christ.

There should be no “corporate revelation” which can possibly run counter to that.

Lumen gentia (vat2) is a small inference to the rightness of my statement, that we are brethren.

That you corporately, as a specific church, put in “separated” before brethren is also our problem, as surely as you put in Roman before “catholic”

But Jesus is The Way, the Truth and the Life, and He founded only His Church and no other. Further, “I shall not leave you orphans” – so there is no excuse to deny Him His Kingship

Amen. Lord help the unbelievers,lost in darkness. Help us not to place adjectives before “church”, then claim them only for ourselves. It does not help those for whom we are to be a light.

 

[benhur]

Fair enough.

Also, it occurs to me that it might have been more productive if I had instead posed a question to you and the rest of my “separated brethren” (that is, NC Christians) on this thread …

Some years ago while I was having lunch with a friend – a fellow Catholic – he commented that, if a Protestant isn’t converting to Catholicism, then the next best thing is for him/her to be anti-Catholic.

My question for you and other Protestant (or Eastern Orthodox) posters is: how do you like those apples?

is that like my post 157, where in inferred likewise sentiment , to be hot or cold for our differences ?

Otherwise I am lost to your drift.

 

[kimg901]

Are we all not God’s children? Are we all not trying to come to Christ in our own ways? I know there are some in all Christian religions that make others look bad but we must follow our Lord’s words “Love thy neighbor”. But this is just my opinion.