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benhur
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Amen. Blessings
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Peter_J
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Abu
Guest
Still rejecting the revelation from the Christ, who established His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, always lacking so many essentials instituted by the Christ – no ordained priests, no Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and lacking most of the great sacraments, while generally failing to see the great evils in remarriage after divorce, contraception, abortion, euthanasia, IVF, cloning. There is obviously a great lack in imagining that such a potpourri of falsehoods should be a necessary part of the universal and orthodox Church established by the Christ.
It is the Christ who taught “If you love Me, keep My Commandments” – that is how we show love for Him and for our neighbour, otherwise we demonstrate a falsehood – that we can love God and do as we please by rejecting His clearly shown requirement to follow Him in His Church as She teaches.
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Abu
Guest
So we find that those rejecting the fullness of Truth in Christ’s Church are warned by Jesus Himself, and His chosen ones:
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them” (Mt 7:15, 16).
“Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.” (Mt 7:19-20).
“Test everything: retain what is good.” (1Thess 5:21).
“Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” (1 Jn 4:1).
“I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm, neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of my mouth.” (Rev 3:16).
We can’t judge according to truth if we are mesmerized by others and give them adulation, but according to the teaching of Christ’s Church through Her Magisterium, Her Tradition and Her Scriptures.
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them” (Mt 7:15, 16).
“Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.” (Mt 7:19-20).
“Test everything: retain what is good.” (1Thess 5:21).
“Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” (1 Jn 4:1).
“I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm, neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of my mouth.” (Rev 3:16).
We can’t judge according to truth if we are mesmerized by others and give them adulation, but according to the teaching of Christ’s Church through Her Magisterium, Her Tradition and Her Scriptures.
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Riser
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Thank you each one who illustrated my point.
Those who wish to believe that the RCC is THE one true church and that everyone else is lost or following a false gospel are part of the cause of the splintered church that Jesus established. The other part includes those who condemn and criticize our brethren in the RCC and make false accusation against them.
I fail to accept that our purpose in life in serving the Lord is to disassociate and criticize those who truly wish to follow the Lord and proclaim the gospel message to the lost.
By the way, the Gospel message does NOT include all the traditions of the individual churches. Those serve to separate us, not bring us to Christ.
Lk 9:
Those who wish to believe that the RCC is THE one true church and that everyone else is lost or following a false gospel are part of the cause of the splintered church that Jesus established. The other part includes those who condemn and criticize our brethren in the RCC and make false accusation against them.
I fail to accept that our purpose in life in serving the Lord is to disassociate and criticize those who truly wish to follow the Lord and proclaim the gospel message to the lost.
By the way, the Gospel message does NOT include all the traditions of the individual churches. Those serve to separate us, not bring us to Christ.
Lk 9:
Mk 9:
Do you all accept the words of Jesus as true and worth following?
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Abu
Guest
Totally false as has been made crystal clear in post #31:
’ “By Faith it is to be firmly held that outside the Apostolic Roman Church none can achieve salvation. This is the only ark of salvation. He who does not enter into it will perish in the flood. Nevertheless, equally certainly it is to be held that those who suffer from invincible ignorance of the true religion, are not for this reason guilty in the eyes of the Lord. Now, then, who could presume in himself an ability to set the boundaries of such ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of peoples, land, native talents, and so many other factors” (Singulari Quidem, 1863 A.D.). Hence, Pius IX distinguished between those who have knowledge of the Church and Her divine foundation, and those who have no such knowledge due to a number of mitigating circumstances.’
‘Christ’s Church knew from the beginning that non-Catholics could be saved:
Pope St Clement knew that non-Catholics could be saved from the beginning, for he wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].’
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Peter_J
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Yes.
I think you have also illustrated the point of my last post: that there’s a difference between being anti-X and saying “I know what I believe and it isn’t X.”
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Bballer32
Guest
Yes. But when I accept Jesus’ Word, I accept all of it. You have yet to prove to me that you also accept all of His words. I refer back to my post #143. Answer the verses in Red and then we will see if you truly accept Christ’s words.
Note that nothing in the bible contradicts itself.
It’s not just the truth you don’t have, but it is also the non-truths that you are more than likely preaching (making this claim off of your religion “non-denominational”).
For example: John 6 and the Bread of Life Discourse, Matthew 16:18-19, John 20 and 21.
As a non-denominational Christian, you cannot agree with the Catholic Church on any of these chapters that I have presented (unless you “bite the bullet” [philosophy term]) and still be separate. Therefore, by preaching a different explanation on these chapters, you would be preaching a different Gospel than the Catholic Church.
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Bballer32
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Well, the Protestants did break off from the Church who brought forth the Gospel, so it would only make sense that Protestants don’t know the fullest truth of the Gospel.
Again, breaking away from the Church of Christ is to break away from the fullness of faith.
LOL
Maybe the Catholic brethren who you work with aren’t being catechized correctly, have you ever considered that?
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Burdock
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Not being catechised correctly, oh for goodness sake.Well, the Protestants did break off from the Church who brought forth the Gospel, so it would only make sense that Protestants don’t know the fullest truth of the Gospel.
Again, breaking away from the Church of Christ is to break away from the fullness of faith.
LOL
Maybe the Catholic brethren who you work with aren’t being catechized correctly, have you ever considered that?
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PRmerger
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Well, the main reason is that in order to be a heretic, one has to be Catholic.Hello everyone,
Does anyone have a good article(s) about Catholic views of Protestants before OR after Vatican II? I’m studying and trying to understand why Catholics went from seeing Protestants as Heretics to seeing them as Separated brethren.
God Bless,
Bballer32
And in the earliest days of the Prot Ref, since the Catholic Church was the only Church (well, that, and the Orthodox Church), everyone who rebelled was…Catholic.
Now, not so much.
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PRmerger
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Indeed. That is very likely since most Catholics don’t have a clue about what the Church they were baptized into professes.
Heck, they can’t even answer the question: “what is the Immaculate Conception?” correctly!
:sad_yes:
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Bballer32
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You seem to disagree with this? Please explain why it’s not possible?
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Burdock
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Well its jyst another divisive comment suggesting that if they were as you put it properly catechised that they wouldnt want to work closely with protestants.
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PRmerger
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I took it to mean that if these Catholics had been properly catechized they wouldn’t have made such an absurd argument like: I didn’t leave the Democratic party, it left me. Similarly, the Catholic Church left me. I didn’t leave the Church.
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Erich
Guest
Agreed. And, being a visible organization, it can be identified–it has marks. The marks are that it is one, holy, catholic, and apostolic–“one” in that it is a unified organization, “holy” in that it is an organization divinely established, “catholic” in that it is to embrace all of mankind, and “apostolic” in that a line of succession has been kept with the authority Christ passed to Peter and the apostles.
One common bond? That claim has been made for at least 1600 years, and probably longer. St. Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 347) insisted: “And if ever thou art sojourning in any city, inquire not simply where the Lord’s house is–for the sects of the profane also attempt to call their own dens, houses of the Lord–nor merely where the church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the peculiar name of the holy body the mother of us all.” How can two people claim to be of the same faith if they profess to believe mutually contradictory positions?
Christ prayed “that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me” (John 17:21). The fact is that, no matter what one’s definition of “the Church” is, we all know that it is not “one” as Christ prayed. He did not say to Peter, “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my churches.” In fact, Christ called His church a sheepfold, asserting that “there shall be one flock, one shepherd” (John 10:16).
Apparently you didn’t read the referenced link.
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Abu
Guest
The false implications of Riser that it doesn’t really matter whether we follow Christ into His Church or not is totally against Christ’s commands and exhortations – being part way is not sufficient when His Church is recognized as having the fullness of truth.
catholicity.com/commentary/shea/00059.html
Can Non-Catholics Be Saved?
by Mark Shea - October 24, 2009
‘For he that is not against us is for us" (Mk 9:38–40)
‘Jesus’ point is that, in following Him, both the man casting out demons and the apostles – whether the man or the apostles realized it or not – were brought into some kind of union with one another through Him. It didn’t matter whether the apostles or the man were conscious of it. Their mutual obedience to Him put them in relationship to each other, just as the right alignment of spokes to a hub necessarily put the spokes in right alignment to one another. The fact is, it is His Spirit, not we, who is the principle of unity holding His Body together and drawing its members into ever more perfect union with each other. But that does not mean (as I had long believed as an Evangelical) that unity with the Body of Christ doesn’t matter so long as one is “spiritual.” For to be brought into union with the Body of Christ at all is to be brought into the order that Christ has established for that Body, since
‘His gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ (Eph 4:11–13).
Or, to put it into the simplest form, if A=B, then B=A. That is, if one is a Christian at all, one is, as Lumen Gentium says, in some kind of union with the Church, the Body of Christ. This is why the Church teaches and has always taught that “outside the Church, there is no salvation.” For the Church is the company of the saved. To talk about salvation “outside the Church” is like talking about swimming outside the water. It is the logical consequence of Jesus’ statement, “He who is not with me is against me” (Mt 12:30).
‘It therefore follows that to be subject to the gospel to any degree is to be in union, to that degree, with the office of Peter, since the office of Peter was created by Christ for one purpose only: to help bring people into subjection to Christ. It is therefore impossible to accept Christ without accepting the authority of Peter’s office to some degree or other.’
catholicity.com/commentary/shea/00059.html
Can Non-Catholics Be Saved?
by Mark Shea - October 24, 2009
‘For he that is not against us is for us" (Mk 9:38–40)
‘Jesus’ point is that, in following Him, both the man casting out demons and the apostles – whether the man or the apostles realized it or not – were brought into some kind of union with one another through Him. It didn’t matter whether the apostles or the man were conscious of it. Their mutual obedience to Him put them in relationship to each other, just as the right alignment of spokes to a hub necessarily put the spokes in right alignment to one another. The fact is, it is His Spirit, not we, who is the principle of unity holding His Body together and drawing its members into ever more perfect union with each other. But that does not mean (as I had long believed as an Evangelical) that unity with the Body of Christ doesn’t matter so long as one is “spiritual.” For to be brought into union with the Body of Christ at all is to be brought into the order that Christ has established for that Body, since
‘His gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ (Eph 4:11–13).
Or, to put it into the simplest form, if A=B, then B=A. That is, if one is a Christian at all, one is, as Lumen Gentium says, in some kind of union with the Church, the Body of Christ. This is why the Church teaches and has always taught that “outside the Church, there is no salvation.” For the Church is the company of the saved. To talk about salvation “outside the Church” is like talking about swimming outside the water. It is the logical consequence of Jesus’ statement, “He who is not with me is against me” (Mt 12:30).
‘It therefore follows that to be subject to the gospel to any degree is to be in union, to that degree, with the office of Peter, since the office of Peter was created by Christ for one purpose only: to help bring people into subjection to Christ. It is therefore impossible to accept Christ without accepting the authority of Peter’s office to some degree or other.’
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Riser
Guest
Advancing membership in one organized body of believers as being God’s command is to put our human reasoning on His lips.
God gave us His word via the Prophets, Jesus, and His disciples. None of them said that we are to join an organization in order to obtain salvation or to be selected for ministry.
That is man’s determination. That reasoning serves to cause an increase in membership, not an increase in faith or righteousness.
Perhaps we should be working to increase the size of the Kingdom of Heaven instead.
These attitudes that put man’s words on God’s lips don’t do that.
God gave us His word via the Prophets, Jesus, and His disciples. None of them said that we are to join an organization in order to obtain salvation or to be selected for ministry.
That is man’s determination. That reasoning serves to cause an increase in membership, not an increase in faith or righteousness.
Perhaps we should be working to increase the size of the Kingdom of Heaven instead.
These attitudes that put man’s words on God’s lips don’t do that.
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Burdock
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PRmerger
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But the question remains: how do we increase the size of the Kingdom of Heaven? What is it that we preach?
Do we preach that baptism is an ordinance? Or that it saves?
Do we preach that Saturday is the day of Worship? Or that it’s Sunday?
Do we preach that when we die we are annihilated, or that the soul is immortal?
Do we preach that the Pauline epistles are inspired, or that they are written by a false prophet?
Do we preach that we must eat grass in order to prove our salvation? Or that this is gaga lala nonsense?
http://i.cdnnaij.com/o/Oseve8fNYa5iMFRZdkkunGM0.jpg
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