Articles on "Separated Brethren"

[Bballer32]

Advancing membership in one organized body of believers as being God’s command is to put our human reasoning on His lips.

God gave us His word via the Prophets, Jesus, and His disciples. None of them said that we are to join an organization in order to obtain salvation or to be selected for ministry.

Ok, who came after his disciples? Honestly, I kid you not, read the Church Fathers. They came right after the disciples, and I mean right after (i.e. St. Polycarp was a disciple of John the Beloved). They disagree with you on almost 99.9% of the points you are making. Jesus talked about being part of a visible Church, you just refuse to read our arguments and follow the Logic of Jesus Christ. The disciples clearly talked about being a part of an organized Church because the early Christians had to have gotten the idea from somewhere, either from God or the Disciples (which is still from God ). Take this quote from Ignatius of Antioch for example. You cannot tell me that this great saint would agree with you at all.

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is administered either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude of the people also be; even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. —Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Ch 8

Perhaps we should be working to increase the size of the Kingdom of Heaven instead.

These attitudes that put man’s words on God’s lips don’t do that.

Again, how can the Kingdom of God increase when different “Christians” are preaching a whole different Gospel than Catholics?

 

[Peter_J]

Advancing membership in one organized body of believers as being God’s command is to put our human reasoning on His lips.

God gave us His word via the Prophets, Jesus, and His disciples. None of them said that we are to join an organization in order to obtain salvation or to be selected for ministry.

That is man’s determination. That reasoning serves to cause an increase in membership, not an increase in faith or righteousness.

Perhaps we should be working to increase the size of the Kingdom of Heaven instead.

These attitudes that put man’s words on God’s lips don’t do that.

Interesting.

If I may, then, what would you say to someone who is anti-Catholic but doesn’t encourage Catholics to convert to any one specific “organized body of believers”?

(Admittedly I am crossing posts – i.e. I recognize that you’re involved in another conversation on this same thread, of which I have only read a fraction – so I may be taking your post slightly out of context. But just slightly. )

 

[dronald]

Do we preach that Saturday is the day of Worship? Or that it’s Sunday?

Yes.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes.

Both? “Sunday is the day of Worship” and" Sunday is NOT the day of Worship"?

In order to accept your paradigm we have to deny the principle of non-contradiction?

We have to suppress our Reason and Logic in order to accept that we can preach whatever we want, as long as it can be found in the Bible?

Really?

 

[dronald]

Both? “Sunday is the day of Worship” and" Sunday is NOT the day of Worship"?

In order to accept your paradigm we have to deny the principle of non-contradiction?

We have to suppress our Reason and Logic in order to accept that we can preach whatever we want, as long as it can be found in the Bible?

Really?

Huh?

You can worship on either; neither one is more important. But it’s okay to believe one is more important if it means that much to you; although you may not condemn another for seeing one day as better or every day alike.

That’s Biblical.

 

[benhur]

I found and read the post you’re referring to, and I don’t have a problem with the verse about “hot or cold” … but I think the question is whether we have the same understanding of what “anti-Catholic”, or anti-anything, means. Consider: I know what I believe, and it isn’t Protestant, but I would not call myself anti-Protestant.

Ok .Got it.

Remember it was the Catholic poster who was being quite "cold’’ against protestantism (and I did not object, even preferred it to lukewarmness or indifference). Not sure if that is being anti protestant, but I would think so. Anti towards doctrine, not members.

I suppose many P’s are anti catholic, and I would hope only towards doctrine and not members also.

So the challenge is to discuss the differences when necessary, and that in love and patience, and humility. Lord help us.

 

[benhur]

Still rejecting the revelation from the Christ, who established His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, always lacking so many essentials instituted by the Christ – no ordained priests, no Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and lacking most of the great sacraments,

That is correct Abu. We try to be apostolic in determining essentials, like you.

while generally failing to see the great evils in remarriage after divorce, contraception, abortion, euthanasia, IVF, cloning.

Thank you for the “generally” in your otherwise shotgun approach. Remember for every finger you point at us, three point back at you . But yes, let us hate sin together.

There is obviously a great lack in imagining that such a potpourri of falsehoods should be a necessary part of the universal and orthodox Church established by the Christ.

You win???

It is the Christ who taught “If you love Me, keep My Commandments” – that is how we show love for Him and for our neighbour, otherwise we demonstrate a falsehood – that we can love God and do as we please by rejecting His clearly shown requirement to follow Him in His Church as She teaches.

Amen.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

So we find that those rejecting the fullness of Truth in Christ’s Church are warned by Jesus Himself, and His chosen ones:
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them” (Mt 7:15, 16).

“Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.” (Mt 7:19-20).

“Test everything: retain what is good.” (1Thess 5:21).

“Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” (1 Jn 4:1).

“I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm, neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of my mouth.” (Rev 3:16).

We can’t judge according to truth if we are mesmerized by others and give them adulation, but according to the teaching of Christ’s Church through Her Magisterium, Her Tradition and Her Scriptures.

Amen.Hence the reformation and counter reformation.

 

[benhur]

Totally false as has been made crystal clear in post #31:
’ “By Faith it is to be firmly held that outside the Apostolic Roman Church none can achieve salvation. This is the only ark of salvation. He who does not enter into it will perish in the flood. Nevertheless, equally certainly it is to be held that those who suffer from invincible ignorance of the true religion, are not for this reason guilty in the eyes of the Lord. Now, then, who could presume in himself an ability to set the boundaries of such ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of peoples, land, native talents, and so many other factors” (Singulari Quidem, 1863 A.D.). Hence, Pius IX distinguished between those who have knowledge of the Church and Her divine foundation, and those who have no such knowledge due to a number of mitigating circumstances.’

‘Christ’s Church knew from the beginning that non-Catholics could be saved:
Pope St Clement knew that non-Catholics could be saved from the beginning, for he wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].’

It is strange that a false gospel can save you then, or that you do not need to understand the right one or have the full one.

A “different” (from CC) gospel can save you !

 

[benhur]

Yes. But when I accept Jesus’ Word, I accept all of it. You have yet to prove to me that you also accept all of His words.

Sounds boastful Bballer.

But I can not prove for my faith but have only evidences.

Is that your stand, that a different interpretation is no interpretation of our Lord’s words ? Like an ostrich sticking his head in the sand , or cafeteria style doctrinal selection? My way or the highway ? That is OK. I am sometimes that way. However, some times legalism is a sin, not to mention the pride associated with it. (Been there done that-Lord help us).

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Not being catechised correctly, oh for goodness sake.

I know, for most reformers were very well catechized, even clergy.

 

[Peter_J]

I found and read the post you’re referring to, and I don’t have a problem with the verse about “hot or cold” … but I think the question is whether we have the same understanding of what “anti-Catholic”, or anti-anything, means. Consider: I know what I believe, and it isn’t Protestant, but I would not call myself anti-Protestant.

I suppose many P’s are anti catholic, and I would hope only towards doctrine and not members also.

Alright, that’s certainly a valid distinction as well, but not relevant at the moment: When considering the value/legitimacy of being anti-Catholic (or anti-Protestant) it should be a prerequisite/nobrainer that being anti-Catholics (or anti-Protestants) is wrong (right?). I don’t think that speaks to my point that I’m not anti-Protestant (or anti-Protestants).

 

[benhur]

I took it to mean that if these Catholics had been properly catechized they wouldn’t have made such an absurd argument like: I didn’t leave the Democratic party, it left me. Similarly, the Catholic Church left me. I didn’t leave the Church.

Well after some thought, it may not be absurd PR. The Democratic party shifted, changed. So Kennedy today would be a Republican. Actually both parties shifted and today’s Republicans are yesterdays (Kennedy’s) Democrats.

So did I leave the Democratic party ? I sure did. Did it leave me ? It sure did.

It is absurd, but mostly sad. But, “Glory, Glory, Halleluiah, His Truth is marching on.”

Now I would say it is in the eyes of the beholder to decide if this shoe fits in the Catholic/Protestant paradigm.

But not absurd.

Blessings

 

[SyroMalankara]

Advancing membership in one organized body of believers as being God’s command is to put our human reasoning on His lips.

You mean being a learned Jew in an organized body of Jews is human reasoning? As opposed to being unlearned within a disorganized group of infighters?

God gave us His word via the Prophets, Jesus, and His disciples. None of them said that we are to join an organization in order to obtain salvation or to be selected for ministry.

Actually they all did and do. The fact that God “gave us His word via the Prophets, Jesus, and His disciples” shows organization. Christians, until relatively recently, never made the (Islamic) claim that God provided a text without any objective interpreter (the Church). The Bible only, Bible-without-Church crowd would be the disorganized chaos that God does not intend.

That is man’s determination. That reasoning serves to cause an increase in membership, not an increase in faith or righteousness.

Membership in the Body of Christ. The One Body.

Perhaps we should be working to increase the size of the Kingdom of Heaven instead.

Why is there an either/or?

These attitudes that put man’s words on God’s lips don’t do that.

When you speak/write/talk are you using man’s words or God’s? Is this 100% of the time or only occasionally? How are we to discern?

 

[benhur]

But the question remains: how do we increase the size of the Kingdom of Heaven? What is it that we preach?

Do we preach that baptism is an ordinance? Or that it saves?
Do we preach that Saturday is the day of Worship? Or that it’s Sunday?
Do we preach that when we die we are annihilated, or that the soul is immortal?
Do we preach that the Pauline epistles are inspired, or that they are written by a false prophet?
Do we preach that we must eat grass in order to prove our salvation? Or that this is gaga lala nonsense?

http://i.cdnnaij.com/o/Oseve8fNYa5iMFRZdkkunGM0.jpg

Legalism PR, legalism.

The Lord says what is that to you, whether your brother worships Me on Saturday or Sunday? What is to to you if he celebrates Easter on this day or that ? What is it to you if he obeys my commemorating the new covenant this way or that way, with consubstantiated, or transubstantiated, or spiritual, or symbolic elements ? What is it to you if he is baptized after regeneration or for regeneration ? What is it to you if he confesses to a priest, or to a brethren, or to Me? Can you really discern the passion and purity of his heart towards me thru these outwardly things ? I look on the inside as you do also when you are in Me.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Legalism PR, legalism.

The Lord says what is that to you, whether your brother worships Me on Saturday or Sunday? What is to to you if he celebrates Easter on this day or that ? What is it to you if he obeys my commemorating the new covenant this way or that way, with consubstantiated, or transubstantiated, or spiritual, or symbolic elements ? What is it to you if he is baptized after regeneration or for regeneration ? What is it to you if he confesses to a priest, or to a brethren, or to Me? Can you really discern the passion and purity of his heart towards me thru these outwardly things ? I look on the inside as you do also when you are in Me.

So we as Christians are not to be organized? Why belong to any community? Why not not be “legalistic” and every individual do/believe/act as he or she wishes at any given moment? The “Lord says” that? Really?

The discernment given to me made a member of the Body by Christ, baptized and regenerated in the Holy Spirit, adopted by our Father - tells me that these disorganized, chaotic, inward-only looking statements are not the Truth. These are another Gospel. Not the life-giving Evangelion of our Lord Jesus.

 

[benhur]

Ok, who came after his disciples? Honestly, I kid you not, read the Church Fathers. They came right after the disciples, and I mean right after (i.e. St. Polycarp was a disciple of John the Beloved). They disagree with you on almost 99.9% of the points you are making.

I do not think so.

We disagree on plain scripture, we should surely disagree on plain ECF’s right after the apostles. I find the next generation or two of church writings to be very “universal”, to C’s and P’s and O’s.

If anything what they write is 99% ok with P’s.

 

[benhur]

So we as Christians are not to be organized? Why belong to any community? Why not not be “legalistic” and every individual do/believe/act as he or she wishes at any given moment? The “Lord says” that? Really?

Hyperbole.

Do you not see the unity in a body that has passion and purity towards the Lord and celebrates Easter and eucharisting, and "confesses’ sin, and is baptized, etc etc. ?

 

[PRmerger]

Legalism PR, legalism.

Can you give a list of things the Bible says fall into the “legalism” category, ben?

That way we can know for sure whether Saturday vs Sunday worship falls into legalism.
And whether baptism saving us or being merely an ordinance falls into legalism.

Please give us this list of legalistic issues which we may dismiss.

 

[PRmerger]

Huh?

You can worship on either; neither one is more important. But it’s okay to believe one is more important if it means that much to you; although you may not condemn another for seeing one day as better or every day alike.

That’s Biblical.

Then perhaps you should tell the Seventh Day Adventists that they have no right to their interpretations of the Bible.

And that there is indeed a correct interpretation of the Bible–and that they must conform their views to the correct one.

Is that your position, ronald? They can’t interpret the Bible differently than you do?