Artificial Insemination? What happens to the child and how should he be treated int he Catholic church?

[larry85704]

I am not taking away the authority of the Catechism, you are taking away the authority of the Bishop. Bishops transfer authority to speak for the Church to priests, but it is the authority of the Bishop. I would assume that whatever a Bishop teaches me, even through the priest, would be the proper teachings of the Church. Certainly there should never be a problem going to a priest or bishop first having read the Catechism, Canon Law or Dear Abby. But, you must be respectful of the priest or Bishop. That is, if you want to be a Catholic. Now, as far as my salvation goes, that is between me and God, you never enter into the conversation.

There are movements today, by Catholics, that are upset with the current teachings of the Church. These people want to return to a time that is not the one we are in now. This is not new. All through history people have been upset with the teachings of the Bishops, or the Pope, or whoever. People like Martin Luther, King Henry and the countless heretics that were burned or ex-communicated. I know for a fact that Martin Luther was probably right with most of the the things he said. Today’s Catholic Church has essentially adopted many of the things he was proposing.

You can use Scripture, or the Catechism, Canon Law or your mother’s recipe for iced tea to justify your positions concerning any aspect of your faith. I don’t care. Even if you are right, you are not the Pope. You think you are the first person that knew he was right and the Pope was wrong? Do you know what book heretics used to get themselves killed? The Bible.

So, if you want to educate anybody about what the Catechism says, fine, go ahead. But don’t in doing so pass yourself off as a person in authority. You are not.

Church implies community. I think the Catholic Church prefers community be associated with a building, the Church, and the people that go to that building. Along with that the community gets to decide, within reason, how things get done. That is the job of the priests and Bishop. This internet stuff exposes people to smart “123” folks from all over the world preaching their idea of Catholicism. That is bad.

If you go and talk to a priest about something that troubles you and he advises you to do something that is, in your opinion, contrary to the Catechism, or Scripture, ask yourself, who made you smarter than him? You know, maybe you are wrong.

 

[Spirithound]

I am not taking away the authority of the Catechism, you are taking away the authority of the Bishop. Bishops transfer authority to speak for the Church to priests, but it is the authority of the Bishop. I would assume that whatever a Bishop teaches me, even through the priest, would be the proper teachings of the Church. Certainly there should never be a problem going to a priest or bishop first having read the Catechism, Canon Law or Dear Abby. But, you must be respectful of the priest or Bishop. That is, if you want to be a Catholic. Now, as far as my salvation goes, that is between me and God, you never enter into the conversation.

There are movements today, by Catholics, that are upset with the current teachings of the Church. These people want to return to a time that is not the one we are in now. This is not new. All through history people have been upset with the teachings of the Bishops, or the Pope, or whoever. People like Martin Luther, King Henry and the countless heretics that were burned or ex-communicated. I know for a fact that Martin Luther was probably right with most of the the things he said. Today’s Catholic Church has essentially adopted many of the things he was proposing.

You can use Scripture, or the Catechism, Canon Law or your mother’s recipe for iced tea to justify your positions concerning any aspect of your faith. I don’t care. Even if you are right, you are not the Pope. You think you are the first person that knew he was right and the Pope was wrong? Do you know what book heretics used to get themselves killed? The Bible.

So, if you want to educate anybody about what the Catechism says, fine, go ahead. But don’t in doing so pass yourself off as a person in authority. You are not.

Church implies community. I think the Catholic Church prefers community be associated with a building, the Church, and the people that go to that building. Along with that the community gets to decide, within reason, how things get done. That is the job of the priests and Bishop. This internet stuff exposes people to smart “123” folks from all over the world preaching their idea of Catholicism. That is bad.

If you go and talk to a priest about something that troubles you and he advises you to do something that is, in your opinion, contrary to the Catechism, or Scripture, ask yourself, who made you smarter than him? You know, maybe you are wrong.

The Bishop does not have authority to change doctrine. The doctrine in question is stated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2377

CCC 2377: Techniques involving only the married couple (homologous artificial insemination and fertilization) are perhaps less reprehensible [than using sperm of an anonymous donor], yet remain morally unacceptable.

This is clear and unambiguous. Catholic teaching is firmly against in-vitro fertilization. Further, you are trying to make a conflict where there is none. No priest in the world is going to order a couple to undergo IVF. He may give his assent, but the CCC prohibits the procedure. When you have seemingly conflicting authorities, you pick the option that does not contravene either, and that is to ignore the priest’s assent to the procedure.

 

[larry85704]

Look, I can believe what some person shows me about the Bible, or the Catechism, or anything. Or I can go talk to a priest. Now, as you said, any priest is not going to give you advice that goes against Church teaching. Any priest might actually sit with you and discuss your options. What must you do to be a member in good standing with the Church or getting your baby Baptized. Life is more that just some stupid debate on something that has already happened.

For me, having kids the old fashioned way worked. If I must spend eternity with someone I would rather spend it with someone that cared enough about having kids that they went through all the trouble and expense to accomplish what I took for granted than someone that pointed out to them that they should not have brought the child they have into this world.

The love God has for you gets you into heaven, nothing else. But God cautions us not to judge. Every time you state someone did something sinful you judge them. I know, you don’t care and you are not going to change. God loves you anyway. You are no greater sinner or saint than me, or anybody else. Why are you so reluctant to allow a priest to explain matters of faith to you? To trust him?

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to read a large document, such as the Catechism, and understand it correctly? Much less write it. The limitations of language are incredible. There are places in the Bible and in the Catechism that are taken with a “grain of salt” today.

Are you sure you understand the Catechism enough to give the advice you give?

If a couple were interested in coming to my Church they are welcomed. Married or not, kids or not. We ask about the Sacraments because we want people to receive them and the Grace they have. The last time I personally dealt with a person that thought she knew more than the pastor she was fired. She was the director of religious education. I don’t know how they do things in your church, or even if you go to church, but in my church if I told another person I knew better than the pastor I wouldn’t be good for me.

 

[Spirithound]

I’m sorry Larry, but I have no idea where you’re coming from. Do you accept CCC 2377?

 

[larry85704]

Sure I accept the Catechism. I know a bunch of it too.

Let me try and wrap it all up.

The best way to live is in strict adherence to the teachings of the Church. No joke. I’ve done that for years. Then Satan, or life, comes at you - bang, upsets your life. You get placed in situations like the original posters friends and you act in the best way you can think of at the time. You make a moral decision with the blessings of the Church and your conscience with full knowledge of the Scripture and the Catechism. You do so with a certainty, a conviction, that would let you stand up before God and defend your actions. You experience what Paul talks about in Romans and what the Catechism talks about when it discusses the sovereign nature of the conscience.

I think St. Augustine was one of the people that first discussed how a mans conscience is sovereign.

1776 “Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths.”

1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. “He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters.”

In addition I urge you to read Romans.

You may discover morality and sin are not simple subjects. Or you may find that sin can be identified easily because God gives you that gift. Good for you. God has not given it to me. God has give me a life where situations arose, not by my actions, where doing the right thing was not spelled out in the Catechism. Paul discusses it in Romans. Curiously, he identifies those weak in faith as vegetarians. But Paul says we are not to criticize those weak in faith. Of course, as a Catholic you can choose to reject Romans and defer to the teachings of the Church, which does allow you to do that.

I think the folks that choose to have a baby, even by artificial means, may have been one of those people who have had to deal with a tough choice. If they chose to continue to love each other and the child they worked so hard to have, the Catholic Church will be blessed when they join. You see, I can build a good case, using the Catechism, that permits them to use any means to conceive. You research things like the mandate from God to be fruitful and the somewhat dated, but still valid idea that having children is what makes marriage a Sacrament to build a mandate to have children. Then you examine the Churches teaching on secondary effects which basically states that if you do something good and as a result of that action you did something that would be sinful without the primary action, you have committed no sin. A simple example is that is not sinful to kill someone that trying to kill you or someone else, like a baby. Where things get a little muddy is that is probably sinful to kill an abortion doctor. So then circumstances enter into the discussion as well. That is why it is best to talk to a priest.

In all fairness, living with no respect for the teachings of the Church is not good. If everybody followed the teaching of the Church this world would be much better off.

When you say you have no idea where I am coming from, good for you, you are Blessed.

 

[Seatuck]

Some useful reads-

christendom-awake.org/pages/may/begetting.htm

usccb.org/prolife/programs/rlp/98rlphaa.shtml

usccb.org/comm/Dignitaspersonae/index2o.shtml

 

[Seatuck]

I have a friend who’s parents used artificial insemination to have him and his twin. Of course there was no third party involved. The church beleives this is morally wrong, but is this person still not a gift from God? If him and his parents wanted to region the Catholic Church ( they were baptised Catholic) exactly what would have to be done? I mean he is definitely still a person, but what is the Church opinion on that?
Thanks you, and I hope you guys can help me.

Everyone would be welcomed and treated with dignity. The parents would have to study and understand why what they did goes against the teachings of the church and the moral law as well as many other things. They would discuss this with a priest and determine if they understood it enough to be held accountable for a mortal sin.

Of course there was no third party involved

Just wanted to nitpick this part a bit. There may not have been adultery which is what I think you were trying to say but a third person seems to have been involved if they did this with the help of a clinic or a sperm donor.

We can only use reproductive technologies that assist the husband and wife with the natural process to concieve. Here’s a brief outline of some technologies and were the church stands on them-

usccb.org/prolife/issues/nfp/treatment.htm

The Bishop’s have recently released a doc named Life Giving Love but I can’t find a link at the moment. Oh wait I found it. Haven’t had time to read it through

usccb.org/LifeGivingLove/lifegivinglovedocument.pdf

 

[larry85704]

Wow, I am impressed. One of the referenced articles states that it is ok to use a condom to collect sperm for medical purposes. Blows me away. That same article states that the Church has no position on artificial insemination as long as the sperm is not obtained by masturbation. Do you folks read this stuff before you post it?

This site is going to lose it’s reputation if you don’t watch it.

See why you should consult a priest?

The other thing you must think about has nothing to do with the artificial insemination. It has to do with attitude and Christ. Jesus’ attitude was acceptance, forgiveness, and trying to help people. Rarely did he condemn anyone, or point out the sinfulness of their lives. Perhaps we should follow His example.

 

[Newbie2]

Look, I can believe what some person shows me about the Bible, or the Catechism, or anything. Or I can go talk to a priest.*** Now, as you said, any priest is not going to give you advice that goes against Church teaching.*** Any priest might actually sit with you and discuss your options. What must you do to be a member in good standing with the Church or getting your baby Baptized. Life is more that just some stupid debate on something that has already happened.

For me, having kids the old fashioned way worked. If I must spend eternity with someone I would rather spend it with someone that cared enough about having kids that they went through all the trouble and expense to accomplish what I took for granted than someone that pointed out to them that they should not have brought the child they have into this world.

The love God has for you gets you into heaven, nothing else. But God cautions us not to judge. Every time you state someone did something sinful you judge them. I know, you don’t care and you are not going to change. God loves you anyway. You are no greater sinner or saint than me, or anybody else. Why are you so reluctant to allow a priest to explain matters of faith to you? To trust him?

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to read a large document, such as the Catechism, and understand it correctly? Much less write it. The limitations of language are incredible. There are places in the Bible and in the Catechism that are taken with a “grain of salt” today.

Are you sure you understand the Catechism enough to give the advice you give?

If a couple were interested in coming to my Church they are welcomed. Married or not, kids or not. We ask about the Sacraments because we want people to receive them and the Grace they have. The last time I personally dealt with a person that thought she knew more than the pastor she was fired. She was the director of religious education. I don’t know how they do things in your church, or even if you go to church, but in my church if I told another person I knew better than the pastor I wouldn’t be good for me.

Time out. I want to make sure I understand what is being said here. Are you saying that a priest i.e. all priests are always going to counsel parishioners in line with church teachings?

Wow, I am impressed. One of the referenced articles states that it is ok to use a condom to collect sperm for medical purposes. Blows me away. That same article states that the Church has no position on artificial insemination as long as the sperm is not obtained by masturbation. Do you folks read this stuff before you post it?

This site is going to lose it’s reputation if you don’t watch it.

***See why you should consult a priest? ***

The other thing you must think about has nothing to do with the artificial insemination. It has to do with attitude and Christ. Jesus’ attitude was acceptance, forgiveness, and trying to help people. Rarely did he condemn anyone, or point out the sinfulness of their lives. Perhaps we should follow His example.

If my priest was to be consulted, he would privately say it’s OK to use condoms.

 

[Carjack1]

A priest who is not acting in a cafeteria type way would not advise that condoms or Artificial insemination as licit. Both are against Church teachings.

 

[redrosetea]

I have a friend who’s parents used artificial insemination to have him and his twin. Of course there was no third party involved. The church beleives this is morally wrong, but is this person still not a gift from God? If him and his parents wanted to region the Catholic Church ( they were baptised Catholic) exactly what would have to be done? I mean he is definitely still a person, but what is the Church opinion on that?
Thanks you, and I hope you guys can help me.

They would have to repent and confess their sins…Of course the child is to be loved it is not their fault…They need to speak to a priest first

 

[larry85704]

What the article said was that to collect sperm, for medical uses, like determining your sperm count, it is ok to use a condom. I assume you then have normal sex. What the article also said was that the Church has no position on using this sperm for artificial insemination. I didn’t say it. Some of you should read the stuff other people take the time and trouble to post.

As far as priests and the advice they give, well everybody knows you get different advice from different priests. But, the Church requires we seek guidance from our priests and Bishops. Sure you can read the Bible, or the Catechism. You should read both. There is always a load, a big load, of c*** running around about what the Church teaches. In the organization of the Church you are supposed to seek guidance from your priest and your Bishop. It is their job to understand the teachings of the Church.

If you needed brain surgery, would you have it done by some idiot you met on the internet, or would you go to a brain surgeon? Same concept.

 

[Newbie2]

What the article said was that to collect sperm, for medical uses, like determining your sperm count, it is ok to use a condom. I assume you then have normal sex. What the article also said was that the Church has no position on using this sperm for artificial insemination. I didn’t say it. Some of you should read the stuff other people take the time and trouble to post.

As far as priests and the advice they give, well everybody knows you get different advice from different priests. But, the Church requires we seek guidance from our priests and Bishops. Sure you can read the Bible, or the Catechism. You should read both. There is always a load, a big load, of c*** running around about what the Church teaches. In the organization of the Church you are supposed to seek guidance from your priest and your Bishop. It is their job to understand the teachings of the Church.

If you needed brain surgery, would you have it done by some idiot you met on the internet, or would you go to a brain surgeon? Same concept.

OK, I agree in general. Some priests are well known for their dissenting opinions, one would be wise to seek council from another priest.

 

[EvelynEVF]

I sure wouldn’t go to a brain surgeon who didn’t even graduate from medical school. The Catechism is what the Church believes and teaches Any pastor, whether bishop or priest, who advises otherwise is erring. Do I think I’m better than a priest, or smarter? Nope. But when the catechism says IVF is morally wrong, and explains how this is consistent with Catholic sexual ethics, that’s the last word. The magisterium holds the authority to teach these things, and the priest only has that authority as it is delegated to him. He has the authority to teach in conformity with the magisterium; anything else is a counterfeit.

Many of us here have noted how different priests will teach opposite things. Where, then, do we find truth? In the magisterium.

(It’s okay to do a test of sperm motility using a perforated condom during marital sex because it in no way disturbs either the unitive or procreative end of the sex act. That sperm is not being collected for IVF-type purposes.)

 

[Carjack1]

I sure wouldn’t go to a brain surgeon who didn’t even graduate from medical school. The Catechism is what the Church believes and teaches Any pastor, whether bishop or priest, who advises otherwise is erring. Do I think I’m better than a priest, or smarter? Nope. But when the catechism says IVF is morally wrong, and explains how this is consistent with Catholic sexual ethics, that’s the last word. The magisterium holds the authority to teach these things, and the priest only has that authority as it is delegated to him. He has the authority to teach in conformity with the magisterium; anything else is a counterfeit.

Many of us here have noted how different priests will teach opposite things. Where, then, do we find truth? In the magisterium.

(It’s okay to do a test of sperm motility using a perforated condom during marital sex because it in no way disturbs either the unitive or procreative end of the sex act. That sperm is not being collected for IVF-type purposes.)

This is the trip to a slippery slope. It is the same as using Embryonic Cells after a aborted fetus. There is no such thing as using a condom in the marital embrace. Something evil would have had to occur to test the specimen from.

 

[EvelynEVF]

"This is the trip to a slippery slope. It is the same as using Embryonic Cells after a aborted fetus. There is no such thing as using a condom in the marital embrace. Something evil would have had to occur to test the specimen from. "

Good heavens, no! No fetus gets aborted, for one thing. The condom is perforated, so that plenty of little swimmers can get through. Remember, we’re talking about huge numbers of sperm–there are plenty to be procreative when a few get left behind to be tested. The Church in her wisdom has declared that this is okay.

The marital embrace is still both procreative and unitive when a perforated condom is used.

 

[Seatuck]

What the article said was that to collect sperm, for medical uses, like determining your sperm count, it is ok to use a condom. I assume you then have normal sex. What the article also said was that the Church has no position on using this sperm for artificial insemination. I didn’t say it. Some of you should read the stuff other people take the time and trouble to post.

The “article” you are referring to is from the USCCB Website.It in no way disagrees with the rest of the teaching magesterium.It’s not some far out “article” without church guidance. I guess you need to get informed better on what the church is allowing and why. A perforated condom is allowed to be used. It is a medical device. Post coital semen is allowed to be collected. The church is still discussing one particular type of artificial insemination and rejects all others.

As far as priests and the advice they give, well everybody knows you get different advice from different priests. But, the Church requires we seek guidance from our priests and Bishops. Sure you can read the Bible, or the Catechism. You should read both. There is always a load, a big load, of c*** running around about what the Church teaches. In the organization of the Church you are supposed to seek guidance from your priest and your Bishop. It is their job to understand the teachings of the Church.

If you needed brain surgery, would you have it done by some idiot you met on the internet, or would you go to a brain surgeon? Same concept.

Yes, of course you should seek counsel from your Priest and Bishop. If you can get to your Bishop. In addition you should keep informed with encyclicals etc from the teaching magesterium.

 

[Seatuck]

This is the trip to a slippery slope. It is the same as using Embryonic Cells after a aborted fetus. There is no such thing as using a condom in the marital embrace. Something evil would have had to occur to test the specimen from.

The church has approved two ways for the testing of sperm. Post coital and using a perforated after during an act of marital intercourse. Neither action is evil.

 

[larry85704]

Hi Seatuck

I think you are agreeing with me. All along I have been maintaining that having a baby by artificial insemination may not be sinful. It seems that the majority of people that have responded to this question assume it is sinful. What I gather is that if the artificial insemination is done using church approved methods the church does not think it is morally wrong. Since the OP did not discuss the specifics of how the artificial insemination was done I feel it is not appropriate to assume it was done in a sinful manner.

I know the people that responded to the question by simply stating that artificial insemination was sinful are not really aware of their actions and what their actions may cause. But, some couple may not pursue artificial insemination to get pregnant because they think it is sinful, or they may think they are sinners, when in fact they may not be, if they must use artificial insemination to have a child. In either case, when we claim something to be sinful we are acting more like the people that Jesus actually got very upset with (Pharisees) than we are acting like the people that I think Jesus wants us to be.

By the way, in referencing the article I was surprised that the Church allowed any sort of condom to be used. I really don’t know anything about artificial insemination either. I think that people should get into the habit of talking to their priest or deacon about being Catholic and trusting their advice. I am sick and tired of all this s*** about priests who do not advise people to be good Catholics. I think if a person feels that he is smarter than his priest he should start his own church.

What concerns me is that the people on this website that are consistently stating that something is a mortal sin are wrong. Mortal sin is complex. It also concerns me that people think priests and Bishops are stupid. There is this attitude that I know better than my priest because what? You know, priests and deacons can pick up the phone and call experts. The experts can pick up the phone and call the Pope. What can we, as lay people do? I have seen priests and deacons actually do it.

 

[Seatuck]

Hi Seatuck

I think you are agreeing with me. All along I have been maintaining that having a baby by artificial insemination may not be sinful. It seems that the majority of people that have responded to this question assume it is sinful. What I gather is that if the artificial insemination is done using church approved methods the church does not think it is morally wrong. Since the OP did not discuss the specifics of how the artificial insemination was done I feel it is not appropriate to assume it was done in a sinful manner.

I know the people that responded to the question by simply stating that artificial insemination was sinful are not really aware of their actions and what their actions may cause. But, some couple may not pursue artificial insemination to get pregnant because they think it is sinful, or they may think they are sinners, when in fact they may not be, if they must use artificial insemination to have a child. In either case, when we claim something to be sinful we are acting more like the people that Jesus actually got very upset with (Pharisees) than we are acting like the people that I think Jesus wants us to be.

By the way, in referencing the article I was surprised that the Church allowed any sort of condom to be used. I really don’t know anything about artificial insemination either. I think that people should get into the habit of talking to their priest or deacon about being Catholic and trusting their advice. I am sick and tired of all this s*** about priests who do not advise people to be good Catholics. I think if a person feels that he is smarter than his priest he should start his own church.

What concerns me is that the people on this website that are consistently stating that something is a mortal sin are wrong. Mortal sin is complex. It also concerns me that people think priests and Bishops are stupid. There is this attitude that I know better than my priest because what? You know, priests and deacons can pick up the phone and call experts. The experts can pick up the phone and call the Pope. What can we, as lay people do? I have seen priests and deacons actually do it.

No I don’t think I do agree with you. The type of reproductive technology that is under discussion by the magesterium is very rare and not widely done. So for the majority of Catholics they will not be able to undergo this procedure and they need to know this. It is very difficult for a Catholic to get the appropriate medical testing done. They need to know this and to learn how to get it. Mosts priests are out of the loop on this type of thing as are many Bishop’s. The special perforated condom has been allowed for as many years as I have been on the internet- about 10 so I don’t know why you didn’t know about it. Perhaps if you are going to make comments on a message board you should research a topic thoroughly.You could mention the specific procedures which are allowed as I did instead of making a blanket statement that says it looks like artificial insemination is allowed. Because that just isn’t a true statement.

I have heard priests speak heresy and speak against the teachings of the church. There was a lot of problem with liberal teaching and the teachings of errors in the seminaries for a lot of years. Catholics need to study topics of importance such as this as well as going for discussion with their priests. It isn’t enough to say well the priest said I could use birth control and rest on it. You have to take the time to study what the magesterium has said. I’ve heard of Priests allowing IVF as well. They just don’t have the authority to do so.