Artificial Insemination? What happens to the child and how should he be treated int he Catholic church?

[Seatuck]

I wanted to add that I don’t think of Priests and Bishop’s as all being evil and attempting to undermine the church. There are some of those who do seem to have their own agenda but the vast majority of them are just very busy and have a lot to deal with on a day to day basis so they may not be keeping up. So they have these parishioners who are clearly suffering and they want to help relieve their suffering so they give them the best answer they can come up with . Or they choose the easy way out in dealing with Parishioners who want to do things their way or the way they have always done things.Look at how many Parishes still haven’t implemented or only recently implemented the 2003 GIRM or addressed the issues in R.S. Now we have a new Mass coming out next year and what a shock that is going to be for those Parishioners. It’s going to cause some problems.

I just believe that in this day of information we Catholics can get the accurate church teaching much easier than before and we should be doing so and then also going for consulatation with our Priests, Bishop’s and other Diocesan resources.

 

[larry85704]

I think most Catholics do things with absolutely no concern for what the Church teaches. That is another issue.

Try doing a search in the Catechism on condom. Guess what, no results. I just tried it. I assume I did it right, I got lots of results for mortal. So, if the Church does allow perforated condoms where does the average Catholic go to do find that out and why should he trust the information he obtains? I’ll bet many people on this forum are not convinced you can use a perforated condom. But, when it comes to condoms I agree, I am not very knowledgeable.

It think what has been shared by the people on this web site, just for this topic, proves my point about needing to consult a priest.

I suppose a Catholic can do something sinful even after doing diligent research into the teachings of the Church. People can simply make mistakes. Now if I attempt to find out what is sinful and what is not and decide that my actions are not sinful then I believe they are in fact not sinful. If I am wrong and in fact it is sinful and I made a mistake then according to the teachings of the Church I think I have committed no sin.

However, I believe that as a Catholic, you must include talking to your priest as part of your diligent research. I believe that researching the writings of the Church is not sufficient.

Now, once you understand what the teachings of the Church are, if it is difficult for you to follow them, well that is a different subject.

 

[Seatuck]

I think most Catholics do things with absolutely no concern for what the Church teaches. That is another issue.

Try doing a search in the Catechism on condom. Guess what, no results. I just tried it. I assume I did it right, I got lots of results for mortal. So, if the Church does allow perforated condoms where does the average Catholic go to do find that out and why should he trust the information he obtains? I’ll bet many people on this forum are not convinced you can use a perforated condom. But, when it comes to condoms I agree, I am not very knowledgeable.

It think what has been shared by the people on this web site, just for this topic, proves my point about needing to consult a priest.

I suppose a Catholic can do something sinful even after doing diligent research into the teachings of the Church. People can simply make mistakes. Now if I attempt to find out what is sinful and what is not and decide that my actions are not sinful then I believe they are in fact not sinful. If I am wrong and in fact it is sinful and I made a mistake then according to the teachings of the Church I think I have committed no sin.

However, I believe that as a Catholic, you must include talking to your priest as part of your diligent research. I believe that researching the writings of the Church is not sufficient.

Now, once you understand what the teachings of the Church are, if it is difficult for you to follow them, well that is a different subject.

The Catechism is not meant to be the the be all and end all of Catholic Teaching . It is a starting tool for those with the task of teaching the faithful . It has been made available for us to study since many of the lay have now had to take up more teaching and pastoral posts with the Priest shortage. And for our own information especially parents who are responsible for teaching the faith to our children. Everything we may have a question about will not be in there. You still need to look at the references and then check to see if any updates have been made on a moral issue. Someone should certainly not give up if he/she doesn’t find a topic or answer there and assume the church doesn’t have a teaching on it.

I would say that as a Catholic you “may” and probably should include talking to your priest when dealing with these difficult issues. Sometimes it just isn’t necessary. Sometimes the church has more than enough material available already. Or you may need a different type of expert advice. Such as calling up the Diocese and asking for a moral theologian. A priest might not always think to do that for you . I will send a question to the National Catholic Bioethics Committee sometimes as well.

I will say that no one should believe just any opinion that is posted on a message board. That’s why many of us post the church documents. And it needs to be a church document not a news report or commentary which can contain errors.

 

[larry85704]

Hi Seatuck

You may not agree with me, but what you write I agree with you. I view priests and deacons as teachers, among other things. Your Bishop has the responsibility to represent the Church to you. I have run into priests that were too liberal and too conservative. I’ll assume Bishops can be like that too. Isn’t what is written, as a Church document, required to be reviewed to see if it agrees with the teachings of the Church? I think so.

To make our faith workable, we need to have an authority on what the teachings of the Church is. Honestly, I though it was the Catechism. I see now that the Catechism is but a starting point. I suspect that if you assume that every document written since the Church began was consulted for guidance on any topic you would find contradictions on many subjects. Yet all such documents are used by some of the people that post in these forums. I think if you look long enough you probably can find church documents to support many positions that are absolutely not accepted in today’s church.

And yes, priests certainly occasionally fail. But grant me this, matters of morality can be complex. Like artificial insemination. I can just imagine me asking someone the question, “Can a Catholic use artificial insemination to conceive without sin” to many people in authority. Want to bet I’d get different answers? With those different answers I’d get different references to Church documents supporting the different answers?

Now suppose I take all these answers to my priest. My priest would sit down with me and we would figure it out. I hope your priest would too.

Additionally, most Catholics, myself included, are not Canon lawyers. Surely you do not think you need to be a Canon lawyer to know right from wrong? How far do you think the average Catholic needs to go to educate themselves?

 

[Spirithound]

Try doing a search in the Catechism on condom. Guess what, no results.

That’s because a condom is a specific type of contraception. Search “contraception” and you will find CCC 2370 and 2399, both prohibitions. The prohibition is not against condoms per se, but against contraception.

 

[larry85704]

Hi Spirithound

Maybe you are not following the discussion. It has been said that you can use a condom with a bunch of holes in it during normal sex. You can use this to collect sperm for medical reasons. I make no comment about this, just repeating what was stated in a referenced article. It is up to you if you agree or not, but it appears that the Church thinks it is ok. Apparently if the condom has a hole it is not contraception.

Now is this getting a little weird? It is to me, but it is educational. I suppose there is a rule for how many holes the condom must have before it becomes sinful, or something. Wonder who figured that out? What is really funny, at least to me, maybe nobody else, is that if you are doing medical stuff to figure out why you cannot have a baby then hasn’t experience proven to you that all the sperm that winds up in the woman is going to not produce a baby? Seems like if you have sex with a regular old condom what is the difference? But, there is no use arguing with the Church, just poke a hole in the condom and get on with it.

Anyway, there is no reference to condom in the Catechism. The Catechism is not the complete teaching of the Church. I guess my point is that for most of us, it is easier to consult a priest than go hunting through the internet until we find a Church document that addresses what concerns us.

 

[Spirithound]

Maybe you are not following the discussion. It has been said that you can use a condom with a bunch of holes in it during normal sex. You can use this to collect sperm for medical reasons. I make no comment about this, just repeating what was stated in a referenced article. It is up to you if you agree or not, but it appears that the Church thinks it is ok. Apparently if the condom has a hole it is not contraception.

Now is this getting a little weird? It is to me, but it is educational. I suppose there is a rule for how many holes the condom must have before it becomes sinful, or something. Wonder who figured that out? What is really funny, at least to me, maybe nobody else, is that if you are doing medical stuff to figure out why you cannot have a baby then hasn’t experience proven to you that all the sperm that winds up in the woman is going to not produce a baby? Seems like if you have sex with a regular old condom what is the difference? But, there is no use arguing with the Church, just poke a hole in the condom and get on with it.

Anyway, there is no reference to condom in the Catechism. The Catechism is not the complete teaching of the Church. I guess my point is that for most of us, it is easier to consult a priest than go hunting through the internet until we find a Church document that addresses what concerns us.

Hi Larry, yes I am following the discussion, and my point was one of the ones you came to, that a perforated condom is not contraception. That is a good question about how many holes the condom must have though.

 

[peary]

I have a friend who’s parents used artificial insemination to have him and his twin. Of course there was no third party involved. The church beleives this is morally wrong, but is this person still not a gift from God? If him and his parents wanted to region the Catholic Church ( they were baptised Catholic) exactly what would have to be done? I mean he is definitely still a person, but what is the Church opinion on that?
Thanks you, and I hope you guys can help me.

The birth is valid but illicit, I suppose. This has no bearing, however, on the Church’s acceptance of the children. The children can still be baptized and be raised as Catholic Christians. The parents should discuss they way the children were conceived with their priest.

The Church clearly and consistently teaches that IVF is immoral. While a couple’s desire to create and share a new life itself may be good, the means provided by IVF are counter to the moral law in three areas. First, the human person created by the union of egg and sperm is treated as something that can be created and/or destroyed at the will of the parents or scientist/technician. This is evident in the eugenic screening of embryos and is even more obvious in the casual destroying and freezing the unused embryos. No human being should be frozen – deprived of nutrients, shelter, and the opportunity to grow. Few of these frozen humans are ever “used.” They remain in a frozen limbo. Eventually they perish or fall under the scientist’s knife.

The Church teaches that children and parenthood are the rightful fruit of marital love. Introducing a third person (egg and/or sperm donor) is a violation of this relationship. Church has consistently recognized that the marital conjugal act, designed by God, serves two purposes – unitive and procreative. Conception, pregnancy, children, and parenthood are properly the fruit of the conjugal act performed within the loving embrace of a married couple. Through this act God invites married couples to share with him in the creation of new human beings.

IVF rips the procreative function from the conjugal act and replaces it with a technician’s procedure for harvesting, screening, freezing, and implanting. The fruit of love is replaced by a quality control process that involves more death than life.

The parents should be encouraged NOT to involve themselves in this procedure again. That is why they need to talk to the priest and hopefully he can lead them to a professional who can explain all of this to them.

 

[Seatuck]

IVF is not Artificial Insemination. Please do not confuse the two.

 

[Seatuck]

Hi Spirithound

Maybe you are not following the discussion. It has been said that you can use a condom with a bunch of holes in it during normal sex. You can use this to collect sperm for medical reasons. I make no comment about this, just repeating what was stated in a referenced article. It is up to you if you agree or not, but it appears that the Church thinks it is ok. Apparently if the condom has a hole it is not contraception.

Now is this getting a little weird? It is to me, but it is educational. I suppose there is a rule for how many holes the condom must have before it becomes sinful, or something. Wonder who figured that out? Moral Theologians with Bioethicists. What is really funny, at least to me, maybe nobody else, is that if you are doing medical stuff to figure out why you cannot have a baby then hasn’t experience proven to you that all the sperm that winds up in the woman is going to not produce a baby?Well, Larry you should really study the whole situation of infertility . It is always going to be cheaper to look at the content of the ejaculate to look for a cause. It isn’t always the cause but you have to actually look at it and count it and check the acidity etc to rule it out as a cause for the infertility. So then you move on to more invasive and expensive tests to find out the cause. You start from the easiest cause and work your way to the most difficult. Seems like if you have sex with a regular old condom what is the difference? But, there is no use arguing with the Church, just poke a hole in the condom and get on with it. Larry, I’m not getting into procreative and unitive meanings of the marital act. You have been given that all before in other threads if I am not mistaken. I really am puzzled at your attitude. Here you are riduculing the church for working to find a way to help married couples in crisis fulfill their vocation as parents by finding ways to do it in a biological moral way. I don’t get your attitude at all. The church is being so sensitive, compassionate and empathetic to couples who are suffering. Some might say no you can’t help them at all. But here we have the church saying lets see what we can do to help these couples while maintaining the dignity of the human person ,the sacrament of marriage as well as respect for the moral law. Really keeping positive and carefully discerning the morality of the technological world in which we live today . I don’t understand your derision.

Anyway, there is no reference to condom in the Catechism. The Catechism is not the complete teaching of the Church. I guess my point is that for most of us, it is easier to consult a priest than go hunting through the internet until we find a Church document that addresses what concerns us.

Larry, I maintain that in this day and age of technology and timing it is easier for many go to their Diocesan website or the USCCB website and find what they need. It takes weeks for a priest to get back to people in some cases when it isn’t an emergency. One of my points to you is that we do have trusted website sources such at the Diocese, the Vatican, the USCCB where the information contained within is safe and accurate as to the church teaching. Getting information is not this big mystery and sleight of hand that you portray it to be.

BTW Happy New Year!

 

[larry85704]

For starters, the issue of how to get pregnant if you need to use artificial insemination is probably not a dogma that must be taught in the same manner by all Bishops everywhere. The technology is just too new. Frankly, I am not sure how much I agree with artificial insemination, but I am still not sure it is a sin. There are other ways, like adoption, that a couple can have children. Since I am adopted, I like adoption. I wish more children were adopted. Who is to say the Churches position on artificial insemination isn’t what it is to encourage couples to adopt? Beyond me.

Since I doubt that there is a Church dogma, then the Bishop of your diocese would have the authority to say everything about artificial insemination. I suspect Bishops are just not real interested in this subject and adopt the position of other Catholics that are. Just a technical point, but I really think you need to contact your priest to comply with the teachings of the Church.

As far as having a condom with a hole in it, well, to me this is silly. But that is just me I guess. Catholics do all sorts of things every day that would be sinful but are not sinful because of medical need.

You are right about starting simple when determining what might be wrong medically. Usually, the Church leaves doctors alone when dealing with health matters. Actually, I don’t think this is a good idea, but that is the way it is. I have a hunch that most priests and Bishops would say it is acceptable to ejaculate without intercourse for the purposes of medical testing, but that is just my guess.

Then you get into the position of having all those bad Bishops and priests not being true to the teachings of the Church. Or is it all the picky control freaky Catholics that think they run the Church because they can read making trouble? Frankly, it is none of anybody business.

 

[peary]

IVF is not Artificial Insemination. Please do not confuse the two.

It’s not? Really? You mean to fertilize a human egg (which has to be removed from the woman) and have the person conceived in a test tube by mixing the man’s sperm in it, and then put it back into the woman is not artificial? Give me a break!

 

[EvelynEVF]

IVF is the test-tube baby stuff.

Artificial insemination can be much simpler. Sometimes mom has an issue where her body is hostile to sperm or something is clogged in the plumbing, or dad’s sperm count is just oo low. So sperm can be harvested and injected directly into mom, where fertilization occurs in her, rather than in a petri dish.

So yes, there is a difference. IVF is artificial, but it isn’t the same as the medical term “artificial insemination.”