As a Catholic: Do you feel you know your "sexual identity"?

[dshix]

I am a male human being. That is in the anatomy of the body I live life in every day, and also in my DNA, which however I have not seen.

Such is my “sexual identity.”

It has nothing to do with sexual desires, although that is what post-Y2Knians associate “sexual identity” with.

The sexual identity is an aspect of your human body; not something you should need to figure out.

ICXC NIKA

Ditto.

 

[joshvanrad]

One of the problems with reading things like the CCC is that sometimes something is lost in the translation, and other times we impose our own culture’s meaning on something which actually means something else entirely.

Way back in the 90s, sexual identity was just beginning to refer to one’s sexual orientation in the US. This I suspect that what the CCC is referring to here is not one’s orientation bit one’s sex. So, my “sexual identity” is that of a woman, and my hisband’s is that of a man’s.

I would tend to disagree as the specific section I am referencing is dealing with adultery- a sin that deals largely with sexual impulses. I can delve into the footnotes of the section, which I unfortunately have not, but I highly suspect it is referencing the impulses and being of our sexual nature.

 

[JustPink]

I am a male human being. That is in the anatomy of the body I live life in every day, and also in my DNA, which however I have not seen.

Such is my “sexual identity.”

It has nothing to do with sexual desires, although that is what post-Y2Knians associate “sexual identity” with.

The sexual identity is an aspect of your human body; not something you should need to figure out.

ICXC NIKA

A person’s “sexuality” encompasses a lot more than just their gender.

 

[GEddie]

A person’s “sexuality” encompasses a lot more than just their gender.

That’s the modern idea, to encompass sexual behavior preferences within the person themselves.

But we really engage in “sexual behavior” only a small fraction of the time we are alive. Our preferences for engaging in that behavior will affect how we spend our discretionary time and money, and may shape the geometry of the second half of one’s life, but it is not part of who one is. IMNAAHO.

Who one would enjoy having sex with is one of many “accidents” in one’s life; the sex or gender is intrinsic to every cell in their body.

ICXC NIKA

 

[joshvanrad]

That’s the modern idea, to encompass sexual behavior preferences within the person themselves.

But we really engage in “sexual behavior” only a small fraction of the time we are alive. Our preferences for engaging in that behavior will affect how we spend our discretionary time and money, and may shape the geometry of the second half of one’s life, but it is not part of who one is. IMNAAHO.

Who one would enjoy having sex with is one of many “accidents” in one’s life; the sex or gender is intrinsic to every cell in their body.

ICXC NIKA

Have you read through that section of the CCC?

 

[JustPink]

That’s the modern idea, to encompass sexual behavior preferences within the person themselves.

But we really engage in “sexual behavior” only a small fraction of the time we are alive. Our preferences for engaging in that behavior will affect how we spend our discretionary time and money, and may shape the geometry of the second half of one’s life, but it is not part of who one is. IMNAAHO.

ICXC NIKA

Actually, if you read all the posts I wrote in this thread, you will see that not a single one said that our sexuality has anything to do with our actual “sexual behavior.” So I’m not sure why you’re throwing that in there as if that’s what I was suggesting.

To say that our sexuality only refers to our sexual behavior is even more shallow than saying that our sexuality only refers to our gender. It encompasses more than just gender, and doesn’t even include sexual behavior in the first place.

It is interesting actually, to see how people are objecting so much to what I said… not because what I said is against Church teaching (since it’s not), but because what I said isn’t the usual, traditional, CAF approved way of looking at things.

 

[joshvanrad]

Also, The CCC specifically uses the word “sexuality.” And the term sexuality is defined as “having the capacity of sexual feelings.” Furthermore, in the same section of the CCC they define sexuality and chastity with ties to emotion/ affectivity.

2332 Sexuality affects all aspects of the human person in the unity of his body and soul. It especially concerns affectivity, the capacity to love and to procreate, and in a more general way the aptitude for forming bonds of communion with others.

2339 Chastity includes an apprenticeship in self-mastery which is a training in human freedom. The alternative is clear: either man governs his passions and finds peace, or he lets himself be dominated by them and becomes unhappy.126 “Man’s dignity therefore requires him to act out of conscious and free choice, as moved and drawn in a personal way from within, and not by blind impulses in himself or by mere external constraint. Man gains such dignity when, ridding himself of all slavery to the passions, he presses forward to his goal by freely choosing what is good and, by his diligence and skill, effectively secures for himself the means suited to this end.”

The CCC is not referencing sexuality or sexual identity as our gender. The CCC uses the terms with respect to our desires and passions.

 

[JustPink]

Also, The CCC specifically uses the word “sexuality.” And the term sexuality is defined as “having the capacity of sexual feelings.” Furthermore, in the same section of the CCC they define sexuality and chastity with ties to emotion/ affectivity.

The CCC is not referencing sexuality or sexual identity as our gender. The CCC uses the terms with respect to our desires and passions.

Yep, that’s the way I saw it too.

 

[AuditVocemMeam]

2332 Sexuality affects all aspects of the human person in the unity of his body and soul. It especially concerns affectivity, the capacity to love and to procreate, and in a more general way the aptitude for forming bonds of communion with others.

2333 Everyone, man and woman, should acknowledge and accept his sexual identity. Physical, moral, and spiritual difference and complementarity are oriented toward the goods of marriage and the flourishing of family life. The harmony of the couple and of society depends in part on the way in which the complementarity, needs, and mutual support between the sexes are lived out.

It seems to me that this is definitely referring to the masculinity of men and femininity of women. Note how in 2333 it refers to “sexual identity” and then immediately goes on to talk about the differences and complementarity of the sexes. It gives no indication that it is referring to sexual orientation.

 

[LongingSoul]

It seems to me that this is definitely referring to the masculinity of men and femininity of women. Note how in 2333 it refers to “sexual identity” and then immediately goes on to talk about the differences and complementarity of the sexes. It gives no indication that it is referring to sexual orientation.

I was going to make a similar observation to this. 2333 specifically stresses…"*Physical, moral, and spiritual difference and complementarity are oriented toward the goods of marriage and the flourishing of family life." *

So even in celibacy, our sexuality is oriented towards ‘marriage’ and ‘family’ life if not on the physical level… spiritually. This sums up the ‘nuptial’ meaning of the body as per Bl. JPIIs description.

 

[St_Francis]

I would tend to disagree as the specific section I am referencing is dealing with adultery- a sin that deals largely with sexual impulses. I can delve into the footnotes of the section, which I unfortunately have not, but I highly suspect it is referencing the impulses and being of our sexual nature.

The heading of the section is Male and Female He created them. Yes, our impulse towards *procreation *may get out of whack and lead into lustfulness, and that is a part of our maleness or femaleness which needs to be brought under the virtue of our proper sex, bit I would say that the section is not about what we ij the US in the 2010s call “sexuality” or “sexual identity,” which in our current culture mean something somewhat different than what the bishops meant.

Another thing to consider is that most languages have a grammatical term which is translated as gender, and a biological term which is translated as sex. Humans are one of two sexes; words in some languages are considered to be one of two genders. I do not think that the CCC is talking about anything related to disorders of thinking oneself to be the opposite sex or the dsiorder of being attracted to one’s own sex.

 

[JustPink]

The heading of the section is Male and Female He created them. Yes, our impulse towards *procreation *may get out of whack and lead into lustfulness, and that is a part of our maleness or femaleness which needs to be brought under the virtue of our proper sex, bit I would say that the section is not about what we ij the US in the 2010s call “sexuality” or “sexual identity,” which in our current culture mean something somewhat different than what the bishops meant.

Another thing to consider is that most languages have a grammatical term which is translated as gender, and a biological term which is translated as sex. Humans are one of two sexes; words in some languages are considered to be one of two genders.** I do not think that the CCC is talking about anything related to disorders of thinking oneself to be the opposite sex or the dsiorder of being attracted to one’s own sex.**

Lol, no one is saying that this is what the CCC is referring to specifically.

But like I said, when sexuality is referred to here, I really don’t think they’re talking only about a person’s gender, as some seem to suggest. I think their use of the term “sexuality” encompasses more about our sexuality than just our gender.

 

[St_Francis]

Also, The CCC specifically uses the word “sexuality.” And the term sexuality is defined as “having the capacity of sexual feelings.” Furthermore, in the same section of the CCC they define sexuality and chastity with ties to emotion/ affectivity.

So if you look at the word used in the Spanish translation of the CCC, it is sexualidad. That word is defined here as: (rough translations in italics)

1 Conjunto de características físicas y psicólogicas propias de cada sexo: es importante que los jóvenes conozcan no solamente su propia sexualidad, sino también la del sexo opuesto.
*Set of physical and psychological characteristics related to each sex; usage: it is important that young people are acquainted with not only the characteristics of their own sex, but those of the opposite sex. *

2 Conjunto de actividades y comportamientos relacionados con la atracción entre los sexos, con la reproducción y con el placer sexual. sexo.
*Set of activities and relationship behaviors connected with the attraction between the two sexes, with reproduction, and with sexual activity.

3 Fenómeno reproductivo en el que intervienen dos organismos sexuados, uno masculino y otro femenino.
*Reproductive activity occurring between 2 sexes [seems to be a biological term]

As you can see, the word sexuality cannot necessarily be considered as it is currently used, which is a very recent phenomena.

I will give an example: during UN negotiations, one document discussed sexual orientation. This was translated “orientation sexuelle” in French. The French were all ready to sign the document… thinkingnit was about sex education!

This is why one must be very careful in one’s analysis of texts which have been translated. The UN has some of the very best translators in the world, but it is impossible to keep up with changing nuances, and some words are the closest one can get but are still not an accurate translation, simply because languages are not codes–they are their “selves.”**

 

[JustPink]

So if you look at the word used in the Spanish translation of the CCC, it is sexualidad. That word is defined here as: (rough translations in italics)

1 Conjunto de características físicas y psicólogicas propias de cada sexo: es importante que los jóvenes conozcan no solamente su propia sexualidad, sino también la del sexo opuesto.
*Set of physical and psychological characteristics related to each sex; usage: it is important that young people are acquainted with not only the characteristics of their own sex, but those of the opposite sex. *

2 Conjunto de actividades y comportamientos relacionados con la atracción entre los sexos, con la reproducción y con el placer sexual. sexo.
*Set of activities and relationship behaviors connected with the attraction between the two sexes, with reproduction, and with sexual activity.

3 Fenómeno reproductivo en el que intervienen dos organismos sexuados, uno masculino y otro femenino.
*Reproductive activity occurring between 2 sexes [seems to be a biological term]

As you can see, the word sexuality cannot necessarily be considered as it is currently used, which is a very recent phenomena.

I will give an example: during UN negotiations, one document discussed sexual orientation. This was translated “orientation sexuelle” in French. The French were all ready to sign the document… thinkingnit was about sex education!

This is why one must be very careful in one’s analysis of texts which have been translated. The UN has some of the very best translators in the world, but it is impossible to keep up with changing nuances, and some words are the closest one can get but are still not an accurate translation, simply because languages are not codes–they are their “selves.”**

Lol I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove here, but I know spanish and “sexualidad” means the exact same thing as the English word “sexuality.” Sure, gender is a part of ssexuality but it isn’t all of it. The definition of the word sexuality isn’t limited to just mean “gender”, either in spanish or english.

 

[LongingSoul]

Lol, no one is saying that this is what the CCC is referring to specifically.

But like I said, when sexuality is referred to here, I really don’t think they’re talking only about a person’s gender, as some seem to suggest. I think their use of the term “sexuality” encompasses more about our sexuality than just our gender.

Gender is the primary equation though. Masculine and feminine contribute to a persons sexual identity, but would not override the primary equation that “male and female He created them”. It’s like negative and positive electrical charges. They form the basic equation upon which can be built varying other relational principles… however that basic equation ‘male plus female’ could never be replaced in underpinning the whole sexual identity.

 

[joshvanrad]

So if you look at the word used in the Spanish translation of the CCC, it is sexualidad. That word is defined here as: (rough translations in italics)

1 Conjunto de características físicas y psicólogicas propias de cada sexo: es importante que los jóvenes conozcan no solamente su propia sexualidad, sino también la del sexo opuesto.
*Set of physical and psychological characteristics related to each sex; usage: it is important that young people are acquainted with not only the characteristics of their own sex, but those of the opposite sex. *

2 Conjunto de actividades y comportamientos relacionados con la atracción entre los sexos, con la reproducción y con el placer sexual. sexo.
*Set of activities and relationship behaviors connected with the attraction between the two sexes, with reproduction, and with sexual activity.

3 Fenómeno reproductivo en el que intervienen dos organismos sexuados, uno masculino y otro femenino.
*Reproductive activity occurring between 2 sexes [seems to be a biological term]

As you can see, the word sexuality cannot necessarily be considered as it is currently used, which is a very recent phenomena.

I will give an example: during UN negotiations, one document discussed sexual orientation. This was translated “orientation sexuelle” in French. The French were all ready to sign the document… thinkingnit was about sex education!

This is why one must be very careful in one’s analysis of texts which have been translated. The UN has some of the very best translators in the world, but it is impossible to keep up with changing nuances, and some words are the closest one can get but are still not an accurate translation, simply because languages are not codes–they are their “selves.”**

I am looking right at the 2nd definition, and that definition would support what I am saying. I have read that entire section of the CCC a number of times and I believe you must read the entire section to put into context what I am saying.

Have you read that section of the CCC? No one has answered me when I ask them that question.

 

[St_Francis]

Lol I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove here, but I know spanish and “sexualidad” means the exact same thing as the English word “sexuality.” Sure, gender is a part of ssexuality but it isn’t all of it. The definition of the word sexuality isn’t limited to just mean “gender”, either in spanish or english.

No, it is the physical and psychological characteristics related to the sex. Gender is a *grammatical *term which we have borrowed to cover what we used to refer to as one’s sex. We used say that Mrs X’s *sex *is female, now we use the word gender because of the insane contortions the politically correct are putting our language through. But this has not necessarily occurred in other languages.

 

[St_Francis]

I am looking right at the 2nd definition, and that definition would support what I am saying. I have read that entire section of the CCC a number of times and I believe you must read the entire section to put into context what I am saying.

Have you read that section of the CCC? No one has answered me when I ask them that question.

Yes, I have read that section. In two different langauges.

Naturally there is an aspect of that which is related to sexual activity in the characteristics related to one’s sex; however, there is way more to those characteristics than simply that which is related to sexual activity. But I believe that what the CCC is talking about is the full aspect of one’s sex, which comes out, or ought to come out, in everything we do.

The problem is that our society does not accept that.

 

[Rau]

Gender is the primary equation though. Masculine and feminine contribute to a persons sexual identity, but would not override the primary equation that “male and female He created them”. It’s like negative and positive electrical charges. They form the basic equation upon which can be built varying other relational principles… however that basic equation ‘male plus female’ could never be replaced in underpinning the whole sexual identity.

Deus tecum:

If you are male, you sexually identify as a male, and if you are female you sexually identify as a female. You do not identify according to “feelings” that come from a disorder.

A very few exceptions aside, one’s Gender (or sex if you like) can be M or F. One’s sexuality in most cases flows from this biological structure in broadly predictable ways.

There are some cases (eg. instances of gender dysphoria, instances of SSA) where the sexuality that flows naturally is not what one ordinarily expects from the biology. Why (AFAIK) is not understood. Individuals so affected experience a sexuality out of the ordinary for their gender. It does not appear to be something that is temporary, like sadness that can pass with changing circumstances. It does not appear to be a choice, like beer versus wine.

How should the relevant sections of the CCC (eg. 2333 Everyone, man and woman, should acknowledge and accept his sexual identity.) be interpreted by those in the “exception” category above? I think the right interpretation is to accept what your gender tells you, and live accordingly. How one is to cope with, or treat (if even possible), the mismatch between gender and sexuality in this situation is unknown.

 

[joshvanrad]

Yes, I have read that section. In two different langauges.

Naturally there is an aspect of that which is related to sexual activity in the characteristics related to one’s sex; however, there is way more to those characteristics than simply that which is related to sexual activity. But I believe that what the CCC is talking about is the full aspect of one’s sex, which comes out, or ought to come out, in everything we do.

The problem is that our society does not accept that.

Society is a slave to sexual passion. Self-mastery would imply that we, as Catholics, are meant to integrate those passions with our spiritual lives and find a balance. Sexual desires are a part of natural law, and therefore good. However, those sexual desires should not become disordered in things such as adultery, lust, homosexual acts, etc.