As a Christian, do you consider the Blessed Virgin Mary as your Mother?

[VociMike]

So you believe then that Mary is the mother of the Father and the Holy Spirit?

Jesus is God, the Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God. Does that mean that Jesus is the Father? That the Holy Spirit is Jesus? That the Father is the Holy Spirit?

Trying to put the Trinity under the microscope of logic will confound your beliefs just as quickly as it will confound ours.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Hmm? Following this logic further, you get

Mary is mother of Jesus, Jesus is God, God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, or God is Trinity, therefore, Mary is Mother of Trinity. Therefore, Mary is mother of Father and Holy Spirit as well?

Hmmm? Following this logic further, you get…

Jesus is God, God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, or God is Trinity, Therefore, God the Father died on the cross and even the Holy Spirit has a human body?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Hmmm? Following this logic further, you get…

Jesus is God, God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, or God is Trinity, Therefore, God the Father died on the cross and even the Holy Spirit has a human body?

You know, I think that what rcbarcia is saying because his logic sounds rather illogical. I have heard Protestant Evangelicals use his reasoning, which doesn’t make sense.

I think many Non-Catholic Christians who do not acknowledge that Mary is the Mother of God do not understand its meaning.

In fact to deny Mary as the Mother of God a Christian would be guilty of a Heresy called Nectorism, which sees two separate persons in the Incarnate Christ, the one Divine and the other Human. Nectorism was condemned by the Early Christian Church in the Third Ecumenical Council at Ephesus in 431.

So to my Non-Catholic Christians out there? Are you a Nectorism? If you say no, then you should acknowledge that Mary is the Mother of God, (The Son, Second Person of the Trinity). The Trinity itself is a mystery which none of us understand. If you say, I don’t believe that Mary is the Mother of God, then you are a follow Nectorism.

The Mother of God is the one way to defend Jesus Christ’s divinity as God. He is both God, and Man. To deny Jesus divinity, it would be mean that the death on the cross is in vain, and that redemption is not possible for us all.

Just because Mary is the Mother of God, it doesn’t mean that she is Mother of God of the Trinity. She is only the Mother of God, the Son, (Second Person of the Trinity). Many of us Catholic Apologists and those Non-Catholic Christians who acknowledge that Mary is the Mother of God have quoted the Bible and the writings of the ECF to support it.

 

[Victorious]

In fact to deny Mary as the Mother of God a Christian would be guilty of a Heresy called Nectorism, which sees two separate persons in the Incarnate Christ, the one Divine and the other Human. Nectorism was condemned by the Early Christian Church in the Third Ecumenical Council at Ephesus in 431.

It’s Nestorianism, and I have already dealt with it twice above.

And since rbarcia et al. find that an attempt to discredit devotion to the Blessed Mother requires a lapse into Nestorianism, I have a question for them: have you not conceded that if Mary is the Mother of God, then she is worthy of hyperdulia?

 

[Mannyfit75]

It’s Nestorianism, and I have already dealt with it twice above.

And since rbarcia et al. find that an attempt to discredit devotion to the Blessed Mother requires a lapse into Nestorianism, I have a question for them: have you not conceded that if Mary is the Mother of God, then she is worthy of hyperdulia?

I made a thread called Condemning Nectorianism and defending the title Mother of God.

 

[jmcrae]

I made a thread called Condemning Nectorianism and defending the title Mother of God.

Nestorianism.

 

[Mannyfit75]

LOL yes Nestorianism.

 

[AlegreFe]

Great posts Sandy!!! (AlegreFe)

I am going to print them & use them to help me explain to my Protestant friends why our views about Mary are Biblical.

Thanks so much. Glad to be of help… only by the Grace of God. All Glory to God! Amen!

 

[AlegreFe]

Yes, she is the Mother of God. Jesus is true God and true man, Mary gave birth to Jesus.
Has anyone else heard of giving you indulgences to Mary? I recently heard this and think it’s wonderful.

You cannot give your indulgences to Mary as she is already “full of grace” and cannot be filled with more grace because she would be overflowing then.

I don’t know if you’re confusing “offering up” your sacrifices or sufferings to Jesus Christ through Mary with what you said here about giving your indulgences to Mary. You can only give your indulgences to a soul in purgatory otherwise you keep your indulgence for yourself, whether it be a partial or plenary indulgence.

When I pray the Rosary in the Church with a group or we do the Benediction and a Holy Hour, I make sure I ask for my indulgence.

 

[AlegreFe]

In answer to the poll, no Mary isn’t my mother. She’s the earthly mother of Jesus. No biblical evidence that she’s to be considered the mother of all Christians.

26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom
he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son.”
27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.” And
from that hour the disciple took her into his home. Jn 19-26-27

[26-27] This scene has been interpreted literally, of Jesus’
concern for his mother; and symbolically, e.g., in the light of
the Cana story in John 2 (the presence of the mother of
Jesus, the address woman, and the mention of the hour) and
of the upper room in John 13 (the presence of the beloved
disciple; the hour). Now that the hour has come (John 19:28),
Mary (a symbol of the church?) is given a role as
the mother of Christians (personified by the
beloved disciple); or, as a representative of
those seeking salvation, she is supported by the
disciple who interprets Jesus’ revelation; or Jewish
and Gentile Christianity (or Israel and the Christian
community) are reconciled.

Out of all the versions that I have seen, not one has the name of “John” before the phrase, “behold your mother.” Jesus was talking to all of us. With the name of “John” missing from His statement, it is to be understood that Jesus meant all of his disciples. I hope you consider yourself a disciple of Jesus Christ.

 

[tequilamac]

In answer to the poll, no Mary isn’t my mother. She’s the earthly mother of Jesus. No biblical evidence that she’s to be considered the mother of all Christians.

As a Christian do you see yourself as following the early Christians, the mid Christians or the modern day Christian. Be careful how you answer that because a knee jerk reaction will be problematic and here is why:
We know Mary was at the foot of the Cross when Jesus commended her to the care of St. John and vice versa. And then what happened is:

Chronological Table of Marian EventsURL for this page is udayton.edu/mary/resources/Timetable.htm

54-60 First allusion to Mary in Paul’s Letter to the Galatians (4:4 “God sent his son born of a woman”)
65 Mary mentioned twice in Mark’s Gospel
70-100 Matthew’s Gospel, Luke Acts and John’s Gospel show Mary’s presence in the life of Jesus and the early Christian Community
90-100 Mary and the Church are both symbolized in the image of the woman in the Book of Revelation (chapter 12)
ca. 110 Ignatius of Antioch makes references to Mary as Virgin and Mother.
150-165 Justin Martyr brings the comparison between Eve and Mary (Eve-Mary-Parallel)
150-202 Irenaeus of Lyons points to Mary’s role in redemption (Mary is causa salutis and advocata Evae)
late 2nd C. Early paintings of Mary in the catacombs
200-350 Composition of the prayer Sub tuum praesidium – the oldest Marian prayer
217 Founding of Santa Maria in Trastevere, Rome
300 Introduction of the Akathistos Hymn in the East
306-373 Ephrem of Syria, known for his poetic writings about Mary
350 Earliest recorded invocation of Mary by St. Justina

Shall I continue? Maybe you do not follow the early Christians-perhaps you only follow the Christians from 352 Ad-1100Ad in which case:

352-366 Founding of Saint Mary Major under Pope Liberius I
370 Earliest liturgy of Mary composed in Syria
339-397 Ambrose of Milan speaks of Mary as type of the Church
354-430 Augustine of Hippo speaks of Mary as most excellent member and type of the Church
ca. 400 Earliest version of the Transitus of Mary
400-500 Temple of Isis at Soissons/France dedicated to the Blessed Virgin Mary,

Introduction of the Feast of the Commemoration of the Virgin throughout Europe,

Feast of the Annunciation celebrated in Byzantium

431 Council of Ephesus proclaims Mary as Theotokos
432 Dedication of the enlarged Church of Saint Mary Major/Rome by Pope Sixtus III

440-461 Introduction of Marian reference in the Eucharistic prayer of the Leonine Sacramentary,

(“In communion with and venerating in the first place the glorious ever-Virgin Mary, Mother of God. …”)
500-600 Parthenon (temple of Athena)/Athens dedicated to Mary,

Dedication of Saint Mary Antiqua/Rome and Saint Mary in Jerusalem
550 Celebration of the Feasts of the Birth of Mary, the Presentation of Jesus, and the Dormition in Byzantium
600-700 Composition of the Marian antiphon Ave Maris Stella,

Celebration of the Feast of the Purification (February 2), the Annunciation (March 25) the Assumption (August 15) and the Birth of Mary in Rome
649 Council of the Lateran declares the perpetual virginity of Mary
680-681 The Third Council of Constantinople reaffirms Mary’s Divine Motherhood
787 The Second Council of Nicaea defines regulations for the veneration rendered to images of Mary
ca. 802 Alcuin composes Masses in honour of Our Lady on Saturday, which become part of the Missal in 875
900-1000 Composition of the antiphon Regina Coeli,

Introduction of The Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary,

Translation of the Transitus stories into Latin,

Dedication of the Saturdays to Mary
1000/1100 Introduction of Feast of Mary’s Compassion,

Composition of Hail Holy Queen,

Start of the building Notre Dame Cathedral in Chartres/France

If you do not find your faith following the very earliest Christians and then you can’t see yourself in 352 AD but now we are up to 1100AD, is your Christianity (biblical of course) showing itself after 1100 perhaps? con’t

 

[tequilamac]

1050-1150 Composition of the antiphons Alma Redemptoris Mater and Salve Regina,

Building of the church of Our Lady of Walsingham/England
1100-1200 Early versions of the Litany of the Virgin Mary and the first part of the Hail Mary
1100-1135 Rupert of Deutz gives Marian interpretation of the Song of Songs and speaks of Mary’s spiritual motherhood
1100-1153 Anselm of Canterbury and Bernard of Clairvaux highlight in addition to Mary’s role in the incarnation her role in redemption
1163-1235 Building of Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris/France
1194-1220/60 Rebuilding and dedication of the Cathedral in Chartres/France
1230-1280 Albert the Great uses the title Mother of the Church"
1250-1274 Bonaventure introduces the word hyperdulia for the type of veneration given to Mary
1251 St. Simon Stock receives the Scapular from Mary
1260-1306 Composition of the Stabat Mater by Jacopone da Todi
1265-1308 Duns Scotus is the first to set forth sound arguments for Mary’s Immaculate Conception
1300-1400 Institution of the Feast of Mary’s Presentation
1326 Founding of Oriel College/Oxford and its dedication to Mary
1372 Institution of the Feast of Mary’s Purification in the West
1379 Founding of Saint Mary’s College/Oxford and its dedication
1400-1500 Composition of the Memorare
1423 Institution of the Feast of the Sorrows of Mary
1440 Founding of Eton College, which is dedicated to Mary
1475 Founding of the first Confraternity of the Rosary
1495 Approval of the Rosary by Pope Alexander VI
1531 Apparition of the Blessed Virgin to Juan Diego at Guadalupe/ Mexico
1538 Destruction of the Shrine of Our Lady of Walsingham
1558 Publication of the Litany of Loreto
1547/63 Council of Trent affirms Mary’s immunity from every actual personal fault, and reaffirms the regulations regarding the veneration of Marian images
1563 Founding of the Marian Sodality
1577 Peter Canisius writes De Maria Virgine Incomparabili
1550-1617 Suarez develops a first systematic teaching on Mary
17th C The French School of Sprituality (Bérulle, Condren, Olier, John Eudes, also John-Baptist de la Salle, Grignion de Montfort) brings about a renewal of Marian devotion: Mary at the heart of the Christian mystery; the first and most perfect Christian

So here we are with the group of Christians fro 1100AD-to just after Martin Luther. Are you in this group of Christians? Or no.
Perhaps we should say the oldest known Christian prayer together other than the Our Father. Perhaps the earliest Christians were not biblical Christians? Do you think? Here we go with this prayer for you to find yourself somewhere in the Christian timeline with a prayer composed in 50AD. (You know the ones in 50 AD-modernists and non biblical according to you correct?)

Prayer to St. Joseph. Oldest Christian Prayer known with the exception of the Our Father. Written approx. 50AD
Oh, Saint Joseph,
whose protection is so great, so strong, so prompt
before the throne of God,
I place in you all my interests and desires.
Oh, Saint Joseph,
do assist me by your powerful intercession,
and obtain for me from your Divine Son
all spiritual blessings, through Jesus Christ, our Lord.
So that, having engaged here below your heavenly power,
I may offer my thanksgiving and homage to the most Loving of Fathers.
Oh, Saint Joseph,
I never weary contemplating you and Jesus asleep in your arms;
I dare not approach while He reposes near your heart.
Press Him in my name and kiss his fine head for me and ask him to return the Kiss
when I draw my dying breath.
Saint Joseph, Patron of departed souls – pray for me.
Amen.
Can’t find yourself in these two earliest periods of Christianity? Maybe you came later: udayton.edu/mary/resources/Timetable.htm

 

[LilyM]

You cannot give your indulgences to Mary as she is already “full of grace” and cannot be filled with more grace because she would be overflowing then.

I don’t know if you’re confusing “offering up” your sacrifices or sufferings to Jesus Christ through Mary with what you said here about giving your indulgences to Mary. You can only give your indulgences to a soul in purgatory otherwise you keep your indulgence for yourself, whether it be a partial or plenary indulgence.

When I pray the Rosary in the Church with a group or we do the Benediction and a Holy Hour, I make sure I ask for my indulgence.

Not offering them FOR Mary - as you pointed out she has no need of them for herself. Offering them TO her to distribute the graces thereof as she sees fit. Different thing.

Lovely idea. I do something similar - offering any indulgences I may gain to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and everything I do each day for the intentions of the Sacred Heart.

 

[AlegreFe]

Not offering them FOR Mary - as you pointed out she has no need of them for herself. Offering them TO her to distribute the graces thereof as she sees fit. Different thing.

Lovely idea. I do something similar - offering any indulgences I may gain to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and everything I do each day for the intentions of the Sacred Heart.

:yup: Yes I see what you mean. But I always just give them to my deceased relatives or sometimes I keep them for myself. I need them, I really do, as I am a sinner in need of many indulgences. But I do give them away to my deceased relatives most of the time.

 

[happy34]

no because only the Bible is the word of God u dont need logic u just need the King James Bible version this is y fillthevoid.org/Versions/Ommisions.html fillthevoid.org/Versions/number-7.html and if its not in the Bible its not true!!!

 

[Mannyfit75]

no because only the Bible is the word of God u dont need logic u just need the King James Bible version this is y fillthevoid.org/Versions/Ommisions.html fillthevoid.org/Versions/number-7.html and if its not in the Bible its not true!!!

Yes it is true. Elizabeth called Mary, "Why isn’t that the Mother of My Lord come to me? (Gospel of Luke).

Lord is often used by the Jews as a title to God when they addressed him.

the King James Bible is erroneous. It’s source is from the Latin Vulgate which is the official Bible Cannon of Scripture by the Holy See (Vatican). the Douy-Rheim Bible (Catholic Bible) predates the KJB… and it is the first English translation of the Latin Vulgate. The Latin Vulgate was translated by St. Jerome who translated from the Greek Sepuagaint (OT text written by Greek speaking Jews), and also added 27 books of the NT from ancient Christian scrolls which include 4 Gospels, and the Epistles or Letters, and Book of Revelations.

 

[tequilamac]

no because only the Bible is the word of God u dont need logic u just need the King James Bible version this is y fillthevoid.org/Versions/Ommisions.html fillthevoid.org/Versions/number-7.html and if its not in the Bible its not true!!!

Catholics are Bible following Christians who take the New Testament very literally and claim it free from error.
Therefore when Jesus told John “Behold your Mother” we must behold the Mother of Christ. Because it is in the Bible and Jesus said so. Check it out.

John 19
26
When Jesus saw his mother 11 and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son.”
27
Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.

Now you are a Protestant and I understand you think some things in the New Testament are true and others are not. How did you decide you did not have to obey Jesus when He was dying?

 

[rr1213]

How did you decide you did not have to obey Jesus when He was dying?

Yeah, you have to be careful of us Protestants. We all got together and went through the Scriptures line-by-line, saying “eeny meeny, miny, moe, which of Jesus’ commandments shall I ignore today.” The hyperbole does not help the discussion, whether it comes from you or us.

This passage is not supportive of your belief that Mary is the mother of us all. In that regard, t is what we might refer to as a “stretch”. In fact, Jesus was speaking to Mary and John in this passage. There is no indication that he was speaking to the Church. He did not say, e.g., “From now on, I desire my disciples to consider my mother, Mary, to be their Mother.”

 

[jmcrae]

In fact, Jesus was speaking to Mary and John in this passage. There is no indication that he was speaking to the Church. He did not say, e.g., “From now on, I desire my disciples to consider my mother, Mary, to be their Mother.”

It is not explicit in the passage that it is John - he is never addressed by name. Jesus gives His mother to “the beloved disciple” - that is, all of us.

John was the one who happened to be standing there at the time, so he (as our representative) was the one that took her into his home, but Jesus didn’t restrict this only to John. She is for everyone who is beloved by Jesus.

 

[AlegreFe]

This passage is not supportive of your belief that Mary is the mother of us all. In that regard, t is what we might refer to as a “stretch”. In fact, Jesus was speaking to Mary and John in this passage. There is no indication that he was speaking to the Church. He did not say, e.g., “From now on, I desire my disciples to consider my mother, Mary, to be their Mother.”

Oh but it is supportive. You just don’t want to see it that way. Jesus spoke many times like this and back then He didn’t have to clarify anything because the Apostles understood Jesus (they didn’t understand Him completely and not all of the time of course). We too should understand Jesus the way that He wants to be understood.

In the scripture passage Jesus did not mention John’s name before saying “behold your mother.” That right there meant that we are all his disciples and we should all behold our Mother. Are you not a disciple of Jesus?

It’s really strange how you (most protestants) want to take everything so literally in the bible and yet when it comes to John 6 with the “Bread of Life Discourse” (in some Protestant bibles that section could be titled “I am the Bread of Life”) you say, “no Jesus didn’t mean it the way that Catholics mean it.”

Well you are wrong when it comes to John 6 because that really is the real substantial presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and we are to eat and drink His Body & Blood. But we also have to remember that the substantial is always there with the spiritual as Jesus said “the flesh is of no avail, it is the spirit that gives life.” We believe it as the flesh alone without the spirit is dead. Just like the body is dead without the soul or just like faith without works is dead. He didn’t mean that the bread was only a symbol but you’ll get the spirit anyway if you only eat a symbol. He would’ve stopped the disciples that walked away (John 6:66) and told them, “no wait, I only meant it to be a symbol, you really don’t have to eat my body.” Instead, He let them walk away.

Of course I know that we all have Jesus spiritually. So if we know that we all have Jesus spiritually then there’s no need for us to actually eat His Body and drink His Blood now is there? And yet Jesus tells us to eat & drink His Body & Blood. And if we do this, He will raise us on the last day. Something to think about.