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Perplexity
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Aquinas’ arguments have been around for a long time and it’d be difficult to summarize the debates they’ve generated. But, you probably know the objections lodged against them as well as the Thomist responses to these.
I think what explains why we regard these arguments differently is that at somewhere down the line, I found some objections to these arguments convincing and you didn’t. Or, that you found the Thomist response to these objections convincing and I didn’t.
Why would these objections/responses convince you but fail to convince me (or vice versa)? Well we don’t evaluate how plausible a claim is in isolation. We discern a claim’s plausibility in light of all our other beliefs. We bring a host of assumptions with us when we evaluate claims. So, I’m willing to bet that we disagree on some deeper issue which effected how we judged the exchanges over Aquinas’ ways (and continues to).
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Julia_Mae
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Now this is interesting to me. Because there is no evidence of any kind that this would be the outcome. But, you don’t d say, “It might have…” You said, pretty categorically “It would have…”
So here’s my observation: atheists claim we believe that which has no proof and often cite science in their arguments. Yet, atheists also make rather a lot of categorical statements for which there is no proof.
I had a whole career in science and I have to say: science isn’t about proof. (That’s mathematics.) Science is about observation, investigation, verification and explanation.
I am going to use an example of the Near Death Experience. A common skeptic opinion is: “It’s just oxygen deprivation.” Of course, if you actually know anything about the effects a of oxygen deprivation on the brain and you know anything about NDE cross-culturally and are familiar with the studies, you realize this explanation is beyond wrong, it’s a display of basest ignorance, but these folks are convinced it’s a “scientific explanation.”
It’s repeated over and over as if it were fact with nothing whatsoever of a scientific nature to support the claim.
You just did the same kind of thing with this statement about Christianity dying out. Yet, there’s nothing to support such a claim and, if you were very familiar with the state of the Universal church at the time, there is certainly plenty to argue against it.
I don’t care what you decide to believe, but what I wish for you is to be the person who asks: HOW DO YOU KNOW? of everybody. Cultivate true scientific detachment and objectivity and delve personally into each issue. And if you won’t take the time or put in the effort to do so, accept in full honesty that you simply do not know.
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nuntym
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+JMJ+
How can you prove a set of axioms?carn: I just need a sound deductive argument, a strong inductive argument or an appropriate experience to become theist.
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interestedman
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Who has ever said a NDE is oxygen deprivation? The brain secretes all sorts of neurotransmitters in your brain that can cause all sorts of crazy things to happen.
As for Constantine’s conversion, you are right. Christianity still might be around today if Constantine didn’t convert. I should say that if the whole of the Roman empire didn’t convert, Christianity would likely not be around today.
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Perplexity
Guest
By showing its negation contains or entails an absurdity.
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snarflemike
Guest
Granted. But that being has a lot of very interesting (God-like) properties. It’s a very good start.
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nuntym
Guest
+JMJ+
Or its use gives everything much more sense.
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interestedman
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I don’t think so at all. All we know about a creator is they would be capable of creating the universe. We don’t know if they are even alive today. We don’t know if they are good or bad. We don’t know if they participate in the world or anything. If the universe was created, all we would know is that it was created by something capable of creating it. You could not make any other sound inferences.
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Lochias
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Logic can lead you to some very sound inferences, actually. I can’t speak for other faiths, but Catholic faith has never been a blind faith.
If you know that a creator created the universe, that’s where you start learning.
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Perplexity
Guest
I’m not sure a set of axiom’s making more sense of everything would prove the axioms. There have been scientific theories that made much more sense of everything, which were later overturned.
But, if you’re suggesting theism makes much more sense of everything I’d be interested in hearing how.
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nuntym
Guest
+JMJ+
For example, on emotions. All other systems of thought and spirituality recommend the suppression of emotions by letting them be expressed up to a certain extent.
Christianity, on the other hand, gives areas in life where emotions are let loose to be wild because emotions are meant to be wild, and through this we achieve emotional health. For example, fear is let loose in the fear of the Lord, and thus we learn to be fearless in everything else. Hate is let loose in mercy, where we hate anything that hurts our loves, including and especially sin, and thus we learn never to hate anyone. Happiness is let loose in loving somebody. And etc. I have never encountered any other system of thought or spirituality that espouses this.
Even if that set of axioms gave rise to science?
Just compare the conclusions of each and every set of axioms and see if they make sense compared to what is happening around you and in you.
For example, on emotions. All other systems of thought and spirituality recommend the suppression of emotions by letting them be expressed up to a certain extent.
Christianity, on the other hand, gives areas in life where emotions are let loose to be wild because emotions are meant to be wild, and through this we achieve emotional health. For example, fear is let loose in the fear of the Lord, and thus we learn to be fearless in everything else. Hate is let loose in mercy, where we hate anything that hurts our loves, including and especially sin, and thus we learn never to hate anyone. Happiness is let loose in loving somebody. And etc. I have never encountered any other system of thought or spirituality that espouses this.
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Michelle9
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Who cares how it is here? The main point is that Christianity still survives till this day.
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Michelle9
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John_Martin
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Well, personally, I do not find any stress. I understand God is my Father, and I am his son; I am “in the family business”, so to speak, and his will is my business and delight - “I want to do things just like my Dad does them” and am learning more and more how he does things.
He is more powerful, infinitely so, than I am, that is true. But, I am also powerful - He has given his Spirit to me, called me his son, so I am like Him, with the same Breath inspiring me which He Breathes into me.
And the King He set over me - happens to be my Brother, Jesus.
You might say that it is not so much that I believe in a divine being, but I know a person whom I call my Father, and I know a person whom I call my Brother and my King, and I know a person who dwells in me empowering me. And these Persons happen to be one God.
John Martin
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ReapReason
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wow you must be very holy to have no spiritual battles or anxiety in you. I doubt very much that you sin or that you are a sinner
All is well, good for you.
Godbless
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nuntym
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+JMJ+
Look, the problem with the stress of following God is that (1) we most often have a wrong view of what “the will of the Lord” is, and (2) we have too much confidence in ourselves.
If you remember that the Lord is the Lord of Providence, then it becomes obvious that the will of the Lord is ALWAYS your present duty right here, right now. Therefore, do the honorable things that you have been doing before you believed in God, and you are fine. It is as simple as that.
And you do not worry whether you are doing the will of the Lord or not, you just do good and let God do everything else for you. No need to get worried.
It is not about being holy, it is about letting God make you holy.
Look, the problem with the stress of following God is that (1) we most often have a wrong view of what “the will of the Lord” is, and (2) we have too much confidence in ourselves.
If you remember that the Lord is the Lord of Providence, then it becomes obvious that the will of the Lord is ALWAYS your present duty right here, right now. Therefore, do the honorable things that you have been doing before you believed in God, and you are fine. It is as simple as that.
And you do not worry whether you are doing the will of the Lord or not, you just do good and let God do everything else for you. No need to get worried.
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John_Martin
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Yes and no; I was set apart for God when I was baptized and confirmed (being set apart for God is the definition of holiness).
Stress is found where a task or situation appears (or is) insurmountable, thus a person does not really know how to proceed. Spiritual battles for me are real, but it is my Father and I who are facing the battles together, my Brother and I who are fighting the battles together, my Comforter and I who are reasoning about the battles together.
Catholicism does not try to convince you there is a God or give you knowlege about a God, it joins you to the God in the Persons of Father, Son, and Spirit.
John Martin
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ReapReason
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You are oblivious or unaware of the long tradition of Catholic philosophy and its importance in the distribution of faith. Its a part of our duty as Catholics to give rational reasons for our beliefs to the world. Its not just a private service for those who are willing to believe blindly. Sorry to hear that you are missing out.
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ReapReason
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A true Christian life is a life full of spiritual struggle. Its a spiritual warfare for those who know better insofar as they know that they are sinners (have a tendency toward sin and temptation). The only people who don’t struggle are the people who don’t know there is a problem.
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