As a Protestant, the "Catholic 'idolatry'" point is erroneous

[jlhargus]

Catholicism says that divine worship is for God only, yet it also says that it is okay to bow down before a statue of Mary, pray to Mary,

As far as bowing down always being an act of worship due God alone it isn’t unless one believes the following were idolaters.

[Gn42:6 And **Joseph was the governor over the land, and he it was that sold to all the people of the land: and Joseph’s brethren came, and bowed down themselves before him with their faces to the earth.]

[Jos7:6 And **Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the Lord until the eventide, he and the elders of israel, and put dust upon their heads. 7 And Joshua said, alas, O Lord God, wherefore hast thou at all brought this people over Jordan, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy us? would to God we had been content, and dwelt on the other side Jordan!]

Joshua and the elders falling on their face before a golden box with images of angels on top and saying, O Lord God. Going by appearances and your source’s theology they were worshiping the ark as god and guilty of idolatry. Is it worship when bowing before a king? According to your source it is. It isn’t the image that constitutes idolatry. What makes it idolatry is believing the idol is, or represents, a god which has divine power within itself apart from any other source.

Were the Israelites guilty of idolatry when they put the ark on a large stone and offered sacrifice before it, 1Sam6:13-16. Or when they carried it in procession before them at Jericho? Are present day Hassidic Jews guilty of idolatry when they stand praying before the Wailing Wall. Putting written prayers in the cracks of the wall? Some back away from the wall, so not to turn their back on it. Because they venerate it, not worship, for what it represents.

[Lk24:3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. 4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, **two men stood by them in shining garments: 5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?]

[Num 21:8 the LORD said to **Moses Make a fiery serpent set it upon a pole …every one bitten when he looks on it shall live 9 Moses made a serpent of brass and put it upon a pole…if a serpent had bitten any when he beheld the serpent of brass he lived.] This image was around for about seven hundred years in the Temple, with no complaints by any prophet. Till almost all Israel had fallen into idolatry and began worshiping it.

[Ex 25:17 you shall make a mercy seat of pure gold…18 **you shall make two cherubims of gold of beaten work …19 make one cherub on one end and the other cherub on the other…20 the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high covering the mercy seat…their faces shall look one to another toward the mercy seat…21…put the mercy seat above on the ark… 22 there I will meet with you and I will commune with you from above the mercy seat between the two cherubims… …]

Here the Lord is commanding the making of images of things in heaven and earth, to be used in the Holy of Holies of the Temple where he will commune with his people. Would the Lord forbid images as sinful with a command, then command them to be made even though it was idolatry=sinful? He forbad images as gods, or representing a god, to worship.

[1Kgs 7:36…**he graved cherubims lions and palm trees … 42 And four hundred pomegranates … 44 And one sea and twelve oxen under the sea 45 … these vessels which Hiram made to king Solomon for the house of the LORD were of bright brass…

[Ezek 44:19 When they go out into the outer court where the people are, **they are to take off the clothes they have been ministering in and are to leave them in the sacred rooms, and put on other clothes, so that they do not consecrate the people by means of their garments.]

[These would have been blessed, sanctified, set apart for holy use in the House of God. They would have been reverenced as holy objects (not worshiped as gods). Just as statues in church are blessed and show the glory of God in his Saints. Heroes and examples to all God’s people. Because of their pouring out themselves, a sacrifice, for the glory of God and the good of his people. Catholics do not worship statues, but go to the shrines of a holy person to ask them to pray for their needs. The Church is One Body of Christ not two.

[1Cor12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the **members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.]
A saved person doesn’t cease to be a member of Christ’s Body when they pass over into God’s presents. Early Christians first imaged Christ with a fish. It is still used today, as bumper stickers, by those who condemn images as idolatry. The Holy Spirit is also imaged as tongues of fire by the same people.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

That makes no sense. First of all I have never heard the term “Rosary Catholics”, are they somehow a sub-group of Catholics? Second I have NEVER, repeat NEVER, seen what you describe. Catholics who pray the Rosary are the most spiritual and humble Catholics I have ever seen.

You mean to tell me that you have never seen Catholics who seem to obsess over the blessed Mother? Some of which seem to think that she, personally, has the ability to answer prayer? Maybe it depends on your background and the area of the country you live in.

 

[jlhargus]

believe that Mary delivers us from death, believe Mary atoned for us, etc., as long as you don’t give her “divine worship.” In other words, you can do almost anything worship-wise to Mary as you would to God–just don’t call it “divine worship.” carm.org/roman-catholicism-mary-idolatry

Roman Catholicism does not attribute divinity to Mary (at least, not yet), but it does attribute divine powers to her: atonement of sin12 divine access to God13 delivering our souls from death14 her intercession brings us salvation,15etc.

Pope Leo 13th, 1903-1914[/fn], delivering our souls from death[fn]CCC 966[/fn]; her intercession brings us salvation[fn]CCC par. 969[/fn], etc.

[Jms5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that **he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.]

Any Christian can be an instrument for saving souls according to scripture.

[Jn14:12 **Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.]

On the same page, 213, that book, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, also tells us Christ alone offered the sacrifice of atonement on the cross, Mary giving moral support. Also it tells us Christ alone conquered the enemy of humanity, accomplishing redemption for all including Mary.

New Testament definition of atonement per [Strong’s Greek Definition for #2643, 2a) in the NT of the restoration of the favour of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ]

Mary’s spiritual atonement is through intercessory prayer and her suffering, as Paul tells us in [Col1:24 **Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:]
[1Pt2:5 **Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.]

Lk2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; 35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.]

Mary is a creature of God as is every human being, she is highly honored for the great things God has done for her. [Lk1:46 And Mary said, **My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.]

 

[jlhargus]

Roman Catholicism does not attribute divinity to Mary (at least, not yet), but it does attribute divine powers to her

As far as attributing divine powers to Mary, which should only be said of God. It is God who gives those powers to men for the salvation of His people and building up of the Church.

[1Cor12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of **healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.]

Are healing, miracles, prophecy, discerning spirits, spontaneously speaking in tongues or interpretation of tongues an attribute and power of man or an attribute and power of God?

Raising the dead is an attribute and power of God, not man. Yet Peter a man raised the dead, Acts9:36-42. Walking on water isn’t an attribute or power of man yet Peter a man walked on water. All the apostles and some non apostles did these things which are attributes and powers of God alone.

What makes a Christian different from a non-Christian. How are Christians a new creation? Answer we have powers of God called grace gifts. We are partakers of the divine nature indwelling our souls. We can do nothing without Christ, with Him we can do All things nothing is impossible for God.

[2Pt1:4 Whereby are **given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.]

According to your source’s theology, which is contrary to the Word of God, attributing powers of God to men is idolatry. Yet it is God who gives those gifts. They are not an attribute of the person but a gift dependant on God’s grace.

[Jn14:12 **Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.]

 

[jlhargus]

Remember, Catholicism says, "the idolater credits the image he reverences with Divinity or Divine powers."17” But this is wrong. You see, the Catholic Church is stacking the definitional deck in its favor so as to separate itself from the Biblical teaching of idolatry and maintain its practice of bowing down before various statues and praying to saints.

Your source is the one trying to stack the definitional deck in its favor. It could be both ways it makes no difference. One can credit the image with divinity and divine powers or one can credit the image as representing an invisible divinity with divine powers. Either way they would be worshiping an idol, a false god, visible or invisible. Catholics don’t worship statues or the person it represents. The following scripture show the image or persons can be at times considered a god.

[Acts7:40 Saying unto Aaron, **Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. 41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.]

[Acts14:11 And **when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. 12 And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. 13 Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.]

[Acts10:26 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, **saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:]

[1Cor8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But **to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.]

 

[pablope]

As a Protestant, and one who at the least tries my best to understand the Catholic traditions, history and hierarchy that, in reality (though denied by some) has allowed development for the entirety of Christendom and the management of it in times past and present, I would say that the point of “Catholic idolatry” made by some Protestant apologists is just moot.

I think it may result from a lack of knowledge in these matters on behalf of some. I’ve come to the obvious conclusion that the devotions and prayers to saints and intercessors are tradition, and not even idolatry, because it is intercession and not prayer in itself – and it is not the same form of devotion as we have to God.

Now, please do not think that I walk into this believing that I know all things of Catholic tradition: I do not know nor understand everything, and that is part of the reason that I joined this Forum. Correct me if you will, please.

What are your thoughts on the validity of this point, if there is any at all?

It usually is, most of the time. Becasue of the Protestant Reformation, which threw out most majority of Catholic practices, the misunderstanding has grown by leaps.

I would suggest the following, which traces the communion of saints to its Jewish roots:

calledtocommunion.com/2012/08/relics-saints-and-the-assumption-of-mary/
The first real blow to this interpretation came when I read Peter Brown’s book, The Cult of Saints: Its Rise and Function in Latin Christianity.
Brown challenged my view that the place of saints and relics in the church was a mere holdover from paganism, and that the practice was somehow peripheral to true Christianity. Instead, Brown painted a picture of ancient Christianity and paganism in which relics were indispensable to the former, and repulsive to the latter. Far from a holdover from paganism, the place of relics in the Church appeared as something intensely Jewish, Hebraic, and Old Testament. Pagans, like Julian-the-Apostate, found the practice revolting and legislated against it. (Paganism, with its notions of ritual purity, had strictly delimited the realm of divine worship and neatly separated it from the realm of corpses and the dead.)

And here…you can see the very similarity with Catholic teaching…chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/562222/jewish/Is-it-okay-to-ask-a-deceased-tzaddik-to-pray-on-my-behalf.htm/mobile/false

Is it okay to ask a deceased tzaddik to pray on my behalf?
By Tzvi Freeman

Just how ancient and popular is this custom? The Torah tells us that Caleb, one of the twelve spies that Moses sent to spy out the Land of Canaan, made a personal detour to Hebron. What was his interest in Hebron? The Talmud (Sotah 34b) tells that he wished to pray at the cave where Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebecca, Jacob and Leah are buried. He prayed there for mercy on his soul and he was saved from the fateful decision of the other spies.

We petition them to pray on our behalf–and they do and often their prayers are more effective than our own. After all, we often don’t fathom the seriousness of these problems from our limited perspective as much as they might from their much more lofty view.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

You mean to tell me that you have never seen Catholics who seem to obsess over the blessed Mother? Some of which seem to think that she, personally, has the ability to answer prayer? Maybe it depends on your background and the area of the country you live in.

Yes, I DO mean to tell you that. I have been in lived in many parts of the country and have NEVER see what you describe.
And your insistence on it makes me wonder about your motivations.

 

[JustaServant]

You mean to tell me that you have never seen Catholics who seem to obsess over the blessed Mother?

Nope.

 

[aicirt]

You mean to tell me that you have never seen Catholics who seem to obsess over the blessed Mother? Some of which seem to think that she, personally, has the ability to answer prayer? Maybe it depends on your background and the area of the country you live in.

Different groups have different ways of honoring her and Jesus. I’ve been in some Catholic homes that have many pictures of Mary and the saints, little altars set up in the homes, wear scapulars as well as medals. I take it as a cultural thing. Some would, understandably, see this as obsessive.

Does she have the ability to answer prayer? She can intercede on your behalf as she did at the marriage feast of Cana. Yes, you will hear Catholics say, “Oh, pray to the BVM. Or ask Mary.” At all times, we are aware that she is NOT God.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Yes, I DO mean to tell you that. I have been in lived in many parts of the country and have NEVER see what you describe.
And your insistence on it makes me wonder about your motivations.

I only care about the truth and express it on a daily basis. Good or bad, in season or out of season.

And It helps to read entire posts and not just cherry pick one area that you find to be controversial.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Different groups have different ways of honoring her and Jesus. I’ve been in some Catholic homes that have many pictures of Mary and the saints, little altars set up in the homes, wear scapulars as well as medals. I take it as a cultural thing. Some would, understandably, see this as obsessive.

Does she have the ability to answer prayer? She can intercede on your behalf as she did at the marriage feast of Cana. Yes, you will hear Catholics say, “Oh, pray to the BVM. Or ask Mary.” At all times, we are aware that she is NOT God.

Yes, i understand all that.

Where i live you don’t even have to leave the house to see some confused Catholic making strange claims. Turn the TV on the local news and you may hear someone say that they prayed to Mary because their child was missing and that Mary heard and answered their prayers and found their kid. I’m not making this stuff up…it’s like they honestly think she is another God.

Notice i said confused Catholic. They are the problem not the Church as the Church is clear on who our Lady is.

And i ask for her intercession daily, however, I’ll never confuse her for something she isn’t.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Nope.

Probably a non issue in West Virginia.

 

[JustaServant]

Yes, i understand all that.

Where i live you don’t even have to leave the house to see some confused Catholic making strange claims. Turn the TV on the local news and you may hear someone say that they prayed to Mary because their child was missing and that Mary heard and answered their prayers and found their kid. I’m not making this stuff up…it’s like they honestly think she is another God.

Notice i said confused Catholic. They are the problem not the Church as the Church is clear on who our Lady is.

And i ask for her intercession daily, however, I’ll never confuse her for something she isn’t.

We pray to Mary to pray to God. So yes, in that sense Mary Does answer prayer. No Catholic I have EVER met believes she is ‘another God’.
I never heard anything else you are claiming. It might be you are the one who is confused.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

We pray to Mary to pray to God. So yes, in that sense Mary Does answer prayer. No Catholic I have EVER met believes she is ‘another God’.
I never heard anything else you are claiming. It might be you are the one who is confused.

There are cultural Catholics out there(especially in my region) who do not have the slightest idea on Church teaching. Not that difficult to fathom. Even the RCIA instructor i talked to acknowledged this as it gave me great pause and cause for concern prior to conversion.

 

[aicirt]

Yes, i understand all that.

Where i live you don’t even have to leave the house to see some confused Catholic making strange claims. Turn the TV on the local news and you may hear someone say that they prayed to Mary because their child was missing and that Mary heard and answered their prayers and found their kid. I’m not making this stuff up…it’s like they honestly think she is another God.

Notice i said confused Catholic. They are the problem not the Church as the Church is clear on who our Lady is.

And i ask for her intercession daily, however, I’ll never confuse her for something she isn’t.

Well, you have the same when people pray to a blessed awaiting to be canonized. They hope, as I would hope, that their prayers would be answered, a miracle would occur and the whole thing would be considered a miracle whereby the blessed could be made a saint. And they would state that "I prayed to Blessed Solanus Casey, or Padre Pio etc. and I’ve been cured. " What they actually mean is they asked the saint to intercede on their behalf but that’s kind of long and involved.

Bottom line is, even when Catholics misspeak, we know there is only one God and he (Jesus Christ and/or the Holy Spirit) are responsible for miracles and prayers answered.

 

[aicirt]

There are cultural Catholics out there(especially in my region) who do not have the slightest idea on Church teaching. Not that difficult to fathom. Even the RCIA instructor i talked to acknowledged this as it gave me great pause and cause for concern prior to conversion.

Yes. Drives me crazy. I’ve suggested that the church bulletin be used with little messages regarding the faith that maybe some don’t know and others just may have forgotten.

One Catholic informed me that we can get an abortion under the circumstances of rape. I said no we can’t. Others don’t know that it was the Catholic Church which put together the New Testament. Another didn’t know that the Protestants have fewer books than the Catholic Bible.

All this could be refreshed in the Sunday bulletin. If the Church wants to evangalize, it needs to start with the Catholics.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Yes. Drives me crazy. I’ve suggested that the church bulletin be used with little messages regarding the faith that maybe some don’t know and others just may have forgotten.

One Catholic informed me that we can get an abortion under the circumstances of rape. I said no we can’t. Others don’t know that it was the Catholic Church which put together the New Testament. Another didn’t know that the Protestants have fewer books than the Catholic Bible.

All this could be refreshed in the Sunday bulletin. If the Church wants to evangalize, it needs to start with the Catholics.

Amen, amen, amen.

As a former protestant these cultural Catholics were a stumbling block for me. It’s one thing to not know the bible, quite another to not even know what your own Church teaches. I suspect many of these people are not regular pew sitters, probably appear only on Christmas and Easter, etc.

 

[jlhargus]

not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other," (1 Cor. 4:6).16

So, the Roman Catholic Church is commanded by Scripture to not exceed what is written in God’s Word. Has it done that? Has it exceeded the limits of Scripture? Yes, it has.

[1Cor4:6 And these things, brethren, **I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.]

Your source is actually doing what they accuse the Church of doing. Exceeding what is written. They must go outside scripture teaching all Tradition is now in scripture. That’s a tradition of men, trying to nullify the Word of God in 2thes2:14-15 and others. There isn’t any written word in scripture telling us Oral Traditions are ALL now in scripture. There are several scriptures telling us to hold Tradition. The burden of proof would be on those who claim all Tradition is in scripture. If they can’t post that scripture then they are exceeding what is written.

Short answer, even if taken literally, oral Apostolic Tradition, still would not be going beyond what is written, it is written in the Word:]

[2Thes2:14 Whereunto he called you by **our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.]

[Jn14:26 But the Comforter, which is **the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.]

[Phillip4:9 **Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.]

[1Tm6:20 O **Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:]

[2Tm1:13 **Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.]

[2Tm2:1 Thou therefore, **my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.]

[2Thes3:6 Now **we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.]

 

[aicirt]

Amen, amen, amen.

As a former protestant these cultural Catholics were a stumbling block for me. It’s one thing to not know the bible, quite another to not even know what your own Church teaches. I suspect many of these people are not regular pew sitters, probably appear only on Christmas and Easter, etc./QUOTe}

No, they are regulars. I will not say they aren’t good Catholics because they believe in the Eucharist, the Trinity, work at the church, attend every Sunday etc. What I’m saying that the Church needs to refresh and easiest way would be in the church bulletins. You get old, you forget things. If you are not reminded, you forget.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Stay on topic please.
CAF is not the place to criticize people in your parish.