How does one get out of doing one’s job? Quit and get another job.How does one get out of this situation?
I cannot think of any way in which acting as realtor for a homosexual person would place the realtor in “dangerous mortal sin”. Perhaps I’ve not thought enough.I do believe however, that a person shouldn’t be forced to work with someone who he feels would be putting him in dangerous mortal sin…
I quoted #12 in post #19.I just think this was odd to leave out 12 when you are discussing this issue, so I thought I would post it. You might want to include what you are refering to
SOME CONSIDERATIONS CONCERNING THE RESPONSE TO LEGISLATIVE PROPOSALS ON THE NON-DISCRIMINATION OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS
(I personally hate this paragraph because it can be used either way saying a gay man has a right to a house and I have heard it used to say that Gays should be placed in concentration camps to “protect the public”)
- Homosexual persons, as human persons, have the same rights as all persons including the right of not being treated in a manner which offends their personal dignity (cf. No. 10). Among other rights, all persons have the right to work, to housing, etc. Nevertheless, these rights are not absolute. They can be legitimately limited for objectively disordered external conduct. This is sometimes not only licit but obligatory. This would obtain moreover not only in the case of culpable behavior but even in the case of actions of the physically or mentally ill. Thus it is accepted that the state may restrict the exercise of rights, for example, in the case of contagious or mentally ill persons, in order to protect the common good.
you get in trouble when you make your private reservations public in a manner contrary to law. no professional is required to serve every one who approaches them for service, except for instance a doctor in a real emergency. what a professional cannot do is publish rules for accepting clients which are against the law, or apply rules arbitrarily and inconsistently. It is perfectly legitimate, say if I am overwhelmed and have too many clients on hand to refer a prospect to another realtor. If i say or do anything that gives a reason that could be discriminatory, yes I could be in trouble. my underlying point is there is no reason for me to make assumptions about two people who come into my office, to solicit any more information than I need to provide the service. for instance unless it is relevant for the mortgage app (which I probably won’t be handling anyhow) I can’t ask about marital status.While you are probably right in practice, technically I think that where you get in trouble is in having a reason that is against the law. ?
Sorry I missed.I quoted #12 in post #19.
It is not that any person does not have a right to a house. There are circumstances where that right may be limited. Such as a family who wants to rent out a room. Must they rent it to to homsexual men who claim they are married? Do such men have an unconditional right to that room?
What about a real estate agency that refuses to take a big client that is trying to sell condos to a “gay only or gay mostly” resort? Are they morally bound to take that job simply because the civil law says it is unjust discrimination?
As another poster said people are free to live where they want right now. The issue here is may same sex couples living as man and wife impose that practice on others? Must one violate their conscience to appease this practice?Sorry I missed.
If it is not Ok for them to live in the same house. Would you want them as neighbors? If you had power would you stop them. Like I hear in this arguement so often with in marriage this is a slippery slope against there rights to housing You could soon ban them from everywhere where there is a family using your moral obligation.
No, I was thinking of some place that caters specfically to a particular group. What about a travel agent that did not want to book vactions that were specifically for swingers? Is it immoral for her to refuse? Does the civil law trump conscience when the law is contrary to the natural law?I might be confused by your second arguement. If you are trying to sell condos to a gay only community that would be unjust discrimination against heterosexuals, and against the law. Everyone should have access to housing. So yes the realtor has a moral obligation not to take the job and report the company.
Folks may live where they want. That does not mean every behavior they desire should be morally or legally acceptable. It, also, means the rights of others need to be considered.However you really scare me with these combined comments. First you do not want them around families, second you do not want them to be put together. Where do you suggest they go?
I just want to say I think this is a hard problem and there are no easy answers and I like to question. So bare with me.As another poster said people are free to live where they want right now. The issue here is may same sex couples living as man and wife impose that practice on others? Must one violate their conscience to appease this practice?
No, I was thinking of some place that caters specfically to a particular group. What about a travel agent that did not want to book vactions that were specifically for swingers? Is it immoral for her to refuse? Does the civil law trump conscience when the law is contrary to the natural law?
Folks may live where they want. That does not mean every behavior they desire should be morally or legally acceptable. It, also, means the rights of others need to be considered.
Think of the renting a room in the house as one example. Do the parents in that house have a right to decide who they rent to when it involves exposing their kids to relationships they deem inappropriate?I do not understand the imposing comment. Are they forcing you to live in a same sex relationship?
I think those are separate circumstances. We do not get to choose our neighbors. We do get to decide who we will sell to or rent to. If I am selling property must I sell to one who plans on opening an abortion clinic?How does it violate your conscience to live next door to them or sell to them?
Straw man. No one said anyone should be denied housing for any reason at all.Would it violate your conscience to watch them starve to death? Would it violate you conscience to see them die in the cold?
But who has said that?I think we have to look at the full implications of our action when making a decision. When someone say “I do not like what you do so I will do nothing for you.”
How? Because some people want to act as they do and claim I must accept it while they have no obligation to refrain from acting that way?I do not think you are saying this but I think this is the consequence of what you believe.
As I posted from the Vatican link race is not equal to sexual conduct. I see no comparison.If I was a racist moslem and believed in the superiority of the balck race and would not sell to a white catholic, is this right? My conscience tells me whites catholics are inferior and worship a false God. Why should I be forced to sell to them?
Sure. Why not? Why must I support every single ideology that comes into my business? Part pof the problem is a misuse of the word “rights” both by secular authority and the public.Should you as catholic say be free not to sell or support an athiest cruise?
A man comes into my store and says I want to buy a knife because I am really mad at my friend and I want to teach him a lesson. Should I sell it? Do I have a “right” to make a conscious decision not to sell it?How are your rights damaged by selling an objectively neutral object to any one?
They should be forced to live by civil law as long as civil law does not contradict the natural law.For the Natural law question I pose this thought to you. Many of the tenets of sharia law are supported by natural law and the punishment to the OT moral view. However many of their laws are against civil law. Should they be forced to live by your current civil and moral law?
Clarifications and question fun.Think of the renting a room in the house as one example. Do the parents in that house have a right to decide who they rent to when it involves exposing their kids to relationships they deem inappropriate?
I think those are separate circumstances. We do not get to choose our neighbors. We do get to decide who we will sell to or rent to. If I am selling property must I sell to one who plans on opening an abortion clinic?
Straw man. No one said anyone should be denied housing for any reason at all.
But who has said that?
How? Because some people want to act as they do and claim I must accept it while they have no obligation to refrain from acting that way?
As I posted from the Vatican link race is not equal to sexual conduct. I see no comparison.
Sure. Why not? Why must I support every single ideology that comes into my business? Part pof the problem is a misuse of the word “rights” both by secular authority and the public.
A man comes into my store and says I want to buy a knife because I am really mad at my friend and I want to teach him a lesson. Should I sell it? Do I have a “right” to make a conscious decision not to sell it?
They should be forced to live by civil law as long as civil law does not contradict the natural law.
By inferring they are “evil” by who they are, is inferring they are lesser people, which leads to unjust discrimination.For the OP here is a partial explanation of Church teaching on cooperating with evil:
Cooperation with Evil
I am not claiming there is only one correct answer in every situation such as you describe, but I do think a case may be made that a person may reject such clients if they hold in their prudential judgment it would be wrong to participate.
I don’t agree that selling or renting a house to a gay couple would be cooperation with evil, but I certainly agree that anyone whose conscience says it is has a right to refuse to do so. Legal and right are not always the same, of course.For the OP here is a partial explanation of Church teaching on cooperating with evil:
Cooperation with Evil
I am not claiming there is only one correct answer in every situation such as you describe, but I do think a case may be made that a person may reject such clients if they hold in their prudential judgment it would be wrong to participate.
No, that is not the case. The point is cooperating with an evil action is in question here, not that persons are evil.By inferring they are “evil” by who they are, is inferring they are lesser people, which leads to unjust discrimination.
I think I pretty much agree with you here.I don’t agree that selling or renting a house to a gay couple would be cooperation with evil, but I certainly agree that anyone whose conscience says it is has a right to refuse to do so. Legal and right are not always the same, of course.
Legally, the discrimination laws all exempt space in one’s own home, and I don’t think they would apply to the sale of your own house if that is not your profession. The problem arises when someone has a moral disagreement with the law in an area, but wants to keep working in that area. As a practical matter, I think a realtor that believes finding homes for gay couples or unmarried couples is wrong should find another profession.
I got in a very heated discussion in another thread about this, relating to a pharmacist that wanted to work at a place (Walmart, I think) that sells birth control but not sell birth control himself. As I remember it, he orginally agreed to refer customers to someone else, or to another pharmacy if he was the only one working. When he stopped doing that they fired him. I said he did not have an inherent right to work for someone else but not do the job the way they wanted, and that he should find a pharmacy whose policies he agrees with or find a new profession. It was a very heated thread for a while.
I feel the same way here. Everyone has the right to refuse to do something they think is immoral, but states have a right to regulate business and employers have a right to set out policies. Those rights have limits, but at some point you have to find a different job.
No. I cannot see how anyone can justify harassing anyone else. That is contrary to the civil law and the moral law. The ends cannot justify the means.As for your gay neighbors do you have a right to harass them to try to force them away? You can say it is to protect your children or on the basis of your religion.
I cannot see how that is consistant with the golden rule. Again, the ends cannot justify the means.On your own property would you put up a sign that says your neighbors are an abomination and that leviticus says they should be put to death. Would you sceam at them every day that their actions are evil. Would you give them a dirty look everytime.
A complicated question that cannot be answered in a post, but the natural moral law is not simply religious tenets that bind a few folks. Morality binds us all even those who claim there is no God. That is why we outlaw murder and robbery.Where does your rights end, and theirs begin, in reference to living? What is the guide you use for your actios? Is this a good guide? Are your rights as an individual supreme when you use religion at its base, when you do not live in a theocracy?
I do not think sexual acts are equal to race, gender, or religion. You asked about a catholic selling an atheistic cruise or something like that. If the Catholic believes it is wrong they may not sell and face the consequences of that action. I think that is different that sexual acts though.Do you think that a person has a right to discrimante for what they consider a valid reason, as you do against the atheist. (I tried to place moslem next to black and white next to catholic to make a connection followed by religion by itself to make a point) Religion is equal to race, as a god given right, but you seem to think you have a right to discriminate against a religion but not race. Or maybe I misunderstand you again. (I do that a lot.)
Yes, the government has rights, but not unlimited rights. Does the government have rights to institute slavery if the majority agree? They have the power, but is it just?I want to know do you think that all discrimination is acceptable as a private business owner? Are you the end all of all things or are you part of a society? What does being part of a society mean? Does the government have any rights over you?
I am not sure I follow you here?The natural law say’s that parent’s have rights over their children and this includes lives which is also supported by the OT moral law. The civil law says they do not, and the civil law says that parental rights can be removed which is impossible according to the natural law. So a moslem has the right to punish there children or do anything to their children since it is supported by natural law?