As Catholics Are We Allowed to Debate This

[triumphguy]

Agreed with the above. Also, I feel the level of reverence when it comes to music largely has to do with application as opposed to strictly the instrument itself. [For an Eastern relevant example] I find it inappropriate if someone is going to play a guitar as the main instrument because mass is not a country concert, but if they’re simply setting the rhythm for a chant I find less issue with it.

For examples of how serene guitars can sound, watch this:

youtube.com/watch?v=BtT9cEipTos

and this

youtube.com/watch?v=RGwvXCYgiuU

 

[agapewolf]

I am not against VII at all. But, why is that guitars were never heard at Mass before VII but, after VII in most churches, unfortunetly; they are common practice.

look up the story of silent night.

Guitars, in different forms, were in churches long before the organ was.

 

[Corki]

To some of us classical guitar sounds more beautiful than any piano or organ

Beautiful, yes. But in my whole life I have never heard a guitar played classically at Mass.

 

[Big_Feet]

Beautiful, yes. But in my whole life I have never heard a guitar played classically at Mass.

Maybe true for you, but, nowadays many could say the same about having heard an organ played at Mass.

 

[JHow]

…for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

You organ vs. guitar people are all off-base. Christ will return at the sound of the last trumpet, not the last guitar, not the last organ, not the last bagpipe.

Want to compare? Don’t believe me? Go here. Hear the trumpet school the organ:

youtube.com/watch?v=KCsqtRBxMIw

 

[Beryllos]

You organ vs. guitar people are all off-base. Christ will return at the sound of the last trumpet, not the last guitar, not the last organ, not the last bagpipe.

I have to agree. Can’t argue with Scripture!

Hear the trumpet school the organ:
youtube.com/watch?v=KCsqtRBxMIw

and that is a nice performance.

 

[Corki]

Maybe true for you, but, nowadays many could say the same about having heard an organ played at Mass.

They are rare but not extinct. My point is that if you say “organ music at Mass” you will conjure a certain kind of music based on Catholics’ experience. If you say “guitar music at Mass” you will not likely conjure an association with classical guitar.

 

[Portrait]

They are rare but not extinct. My point is that if you say “organ music at Mass” you will conjure a certain kind of music based on Catholics’ experience. If you say “guitar music at Mass” you will not likely conjure an association with classical guitar.

Dear Corki,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

This is so very true and guitars and/or drums also evoke a disorderly scene which is both unseemly and improper at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Does not St. Paul enunciate an axiom which should be ever present in the conduct of divine worship - a precept which plainly forbids all slovenliness and, by reasonable extension, any music that is not conducive to a spirit of reverence and a sense of the numinous: “Let all things be done decently and in order” (I Cor. 14: 40). Divine worship at Holy Mass, dear friend, should not be the sort of thing that one associates with folk clubs, bars, rock concerts or youth conventions. After all the faithful do not attend Mass to be entertained but to worship God and to receive the Blessed Sacrament. Therefore it is right and proper that divine worship should be conducted in a grave, rational, composed and very orderly manner. We worship a Holy God and He is not to be dishonoured, nor His worship disgraced, by our unbecoming and disorderly performance of it.

Thus whilst guitars are licit for use at Holy Mass, dear friend, many men are of the opinion that such musical instruments simply cannot be incorporated in a solemn, dignified and reverent manner that is consistent with the traditional beauty and solemnity of the Mass. Moreover, your modern ‘worship songs’, which are invariably accompanied by guitars and drums, have a tendency to be too noisy, self-centred and indulgent, rendering them highly unsuitable for communal public worship. These simple noisy ditties largely appeal to the parish youth and thus exclude the more conservative or elderly church people from any participation whatsoever. Is that really fair or right in public worship, just so that the youth are kept happy and can attend their ‘cool’ worship services? In any case there is a mistaken assumption that *all *youth are desirous for this sort of informal ‘happy-clappy’ type of worship and that solemn dignified services do not ‘connect’ with them and are thus a hindrance to youth mission. However, the fact is that an increasing number of young people are attracted to the Traditional Latin Mass because they see the beauty of it and are aware of the sense of the numinous with which it inspires. Therefore, it is simply wrong to suppose that the majority of our Catholic youth want this informal Pentecostal style worship with guitars and drums, many do for sure, but not all. The young folk who tend to like this sort of thing usually come from a Protestant ecclesial background such as Evangelicalism, where ‘happy-clappy’ worship styles are immensely popular. This is certainly the case with Anglican Evangelicalism (church of England).

It is surely important in this discussion, dear friend, that we all reflect upon the very nature and character of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. At Holy Mass Heaven and earth intersect as it were and we have a direct encounter with the sovereign majesty of God. This is clearly something sublime, majestic and solemn and therefore it is jolly hard to see how in such a context guitars and drum kits have a place in such an encounter. We are to worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness and if this is to be done in a dignified manner then we must reverence His sanctuary and ensure that all things are done “decently and in order” within its sacred walls. Authentic worship will always powerfully lift up men’s minds to God and higher things, making the things of this world grow strangely dim.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[Boulder257]

A bit of a side note, the carol Silent Night was first played at a Christmas Eve Midnight mass on a guitar. :harp:

Neat! Thanks for sharing.

 

[Boulder257]

Well you’ve misconstrued what I’ve said, and quite frankly my knowledge of guitar is perhaps not as limited as you claim since I in fact play the guitar. I said it should not be the main instrument (inclusive of vocals); mass is not a performance to begin with. I did not say guitar was inappropriate for use at mass but when it (or any instrument for that matter, in my opinion) becomes more prevalent/a greater focus than the voice of the choir and/or people I find that antithetical to its purpose.

I’m not going to argue semantics about what you said. I am sorry if I insulted you in some way.

 

[twf]

In addition, I’ve been to many Spanish-language Masses where ONLY guitars are played, sometimes with electronic keyboard for time-keeping. Most Spanish-language liturgical music is guitar-based, and has been since well before Vatican II. Seriously, in the psalms and OT, many musical instruments (such as trumpets, horns, lyres, harps, tamborines, etc.) are mentioned as being used in worship. If God considered these instruments to be proper for the Jews to worship with, why should they be improper for Christians? The important point is for our music to be complementing the worship, not detracting from it. Finally, guitars are great for large processions (such as the ones done on Palm Sunday) because they can be carried - I haven’t seen people process with an organ!

Do you have any evidence that these varied instruments were used in the most solemn sacrificial rites of the temple? It is those temple services that served as shadows and figures of the holy sacrifice of the mass. It is my understanding that the more jubilant musical expressions of worship were during processions and other devotional activities outside of the temple - but I could be wrong.
Either way, the Church has always been clear that there must be a distinction between sacred music, appropriate for divine worship, and profane music. That being said, I have seen the guitar used very beautiful - a light classical style accompanied by chant in fact.

 

[Gidge]

You can debate any custom

Last time I checked, it was still a free country (maybe not for long though)

 

[lcburgundy]

Well you’ve misconstrued what I’ve said, and quite frankly my knowledge of guitar is perhaps not as limited as you claim since I in fact play the guitar. I said it should not be the main instrument (inclusive of vocals); mass is not a performance to begin with. I did not say guitar was inappropriate for use at mass but when it (or any instrument for that matter, in my opinion) becomes more prevalent/a greater focus than the voice of the choir and/or people I find that antithetical to its purpose.

Wow, I’ve never been to a Mass where a guitar managed to overpower a choir. That would be some serious amplification going on there (or a very quiet choir).

 

[OraLabora]

Do you have any evidence that these varied instruments were used in the most solemn sacrificial rites of the temple? It is those temple services that served as shadows and figures of the holy sacrifice of the mass. It is my understanding that the more jubilant musical expressions of worship were during processions and other devotional activities outside of the temple - but I could be wrong.
Either way, the Church has always been clear that there must be a distinction between sacred music, appropriate for divine worship, and profane music. That being said, I have seen the guitar used very beautiful - a light classical style accompanied by chant in fact.

No and there was not much evidence in temple worship of the pipe organ, nor of symphonic Masses such as the excellent recording I have of Mozart’s Coronation Mass performed for the feast of St. Peter and St. Paul, performed by the Berlin philharmonic at St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome, and presided by Blessed John Paul II.

While not my preferred choice of sacred music (I’m very partial to Latin Gregorian chant myself), it is most certainly high art and not entirely out of place in the Church.

Getting back to Guitar, one priest in our parish, many years ago, performed (in French), at Mass, a very beautiful Magnificat accompanied by the guitar. That does in fact follow the tradition of the music being an enhancement of the Word, which is what Gregorian chant is meant to be. Chant is one way to put a musical highlight on the Word but by no means the only way.

All tastes, as the French saying goes, exists in nature, and a cappella chant and the pipe organ aren’t the only tasteful ways of of expressing our faith musically. Trying to debate musical taste, even in the Church, is like trying to heard cats: much expenditure of energy with little result. Moreover it’s a poor way of gauging inner faith, disposition of the heart and conversion of the soul, which is what really matters to God.

 

[powerofk]

Do you have any evidence that these varied instruments were used in the most solemn sacrificial rites of the temple? It is those temple services that served as shadows and figures of the holy sacrifice of the mass. It is my understanding that the more jubilant musical expressions of worship were during processions and other devotional activities outside of the temple - but I could be wrong.
Either way, the Church has always been clear that there must be a distinction between sacred music, appropriate for divine worship, and profane music. That being said, I have seen the guitar used very beautiful - a light classical style accompanied by chant in fact.

As for trumpets, yes - they served the same purpose as bells. Numbers 10:10: “On your days of celebration, your festivals, and your new moon feasts, you shall blow the trumpets over your holocausts and your peace offerings; this will serve as a reminder of you before your God. I, the LORD, am your God.” However, only priests blew the trumpets. The Levites (which were the equivalent of deacons or acolytes in today’s church) and the laity did, however, participate in many festivals.

Many of the psalms are listed as “For the leader” - that is, choir leader. Some of them are listed as being by the Korahites, who were a group of Levites that specialized in temple worship: 2 Chronicles 20:13-15.18-19 "All Judah was standing before the LORD, with their little ones, their wives, and their young sons. And the spirit of the LORD came upon Jahaziel, son of Zechariah, son of Benaiah, son of Jeiel, son of Mattaniah, a Levite of the clan of Asaph, in the midst of the assembly, and he said: "Listen, all of Judah, inhabitants of Jerusalem, and King Jehosaphat! The LORD says to you: ‘Do not fear or lose heart at the sight of this vast multitude, for the battle is not yours, but God’s.’"Then Jehoshaphat knelt down with his face to the ground, and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem fell down before the LORD in worship. Levites from among the Kohathites and Korahites rose to sing the praises of the LORD, the God of Israel, in a resounding chorus.

Some psalms were for personal worship, but others were definitely used in the temple assembly, and some psalms are listed as for being used with stringed instruments (which, at that time, would have meant harps & lyres). It’s important to note that the keyboard instrument group (which includes the organ - came around during the Late Middle Ages) is rather young as far as instrument types go. For most of history, worship music has been either a cappella or with classes of instruments many of us now think of as not proper for liturgical use.

 

[Ohana]

Are Catholics allowed to debate whether or not the Church forbids guitars at Mass? I, personally, am inclined to believe that Church documents and papal statements forbid them. Is this an okay position for me to take? I have a tendency to want to show support for things that defend my view. By doing this am I able to stay in line with Church teaching. If not I’d happily change my opinion.

Had to giggle. How long have you been Catholic. We debate practically anything at one time or another. Well maybe not major dogmas and doctrines of the Faith, but all else gets commented upon from time to time.

I agree with those who say it depends a lot on local custom. The Psalms talk about cymbals and tambourines! I think organ is still the preferred instrument, closely followed now by piano. We occasional have a harpist, a cellist, violinist. flautist, oboist etc, and these add to the richness of musical expression. We also have a group that uses guitars and do a fine job of that.

One consideration too, is that the pipe organ of old is extremely expensive to install, and maintain. Electric organs are fine, but not the same and also not inexpensive. Some parishes do not have the money to get some of these instruments. We need to be thankful that there are those with other musical talents who assist in providing music for our Masses.

 

[dconklin]

One consideration too, is that the pipe organ of old is extremely expensive to install, and maintain. Electric organs are fine, but not the same and also not inexpensive. Some parishes do not have the money to get some of these instruments. We need to be thankful that there are those with other musical talents who assist in providing music for our Masses.

Not only this, but today it is a lot easier and much cheaper to find guitar players than organ players.

 

[C794]

Thanks for the replies. After reading this, I kind of changed my mind on this topic. It’s probably true that it’s often for guitars to be played irreverently, but I also know that they can be reverent. My negative opinion comes from the fact that, for the most part, the guitar music I’ve heard made praying hard. Although, I do remember that the guitars were reverently done when I first began attending Mass. For the first few months I was very much in favour of it. As time passed, the reverence decreased and that caused my opinion to change. But I think I allowed my self to forget what I first heard and then began making an unfair judgement. If I really think about it, I could say that the one time I’ve seen a drum at Mass, it was played reverently. Now I probably would say that a drum is inappropriate, although I think that I’m changing my opinion on guitars at Mass. Especially from what I’ve read.

Had to giggle. How long have you been Catholic. We debate practically anything at one time or another.

Officially, only since the Easter Vigil. But I decided to convert almost two years ago.

 

[Boulder257]

All tastes, as the French saying goes, exists in nature, and a cappella chant and the pipe organ aren’t the only tasteful ways of of expressing our faith musically. Trying to debate musical taste, even in the Church, is like trying to heard cats: much expenditure of energy with little result. Moreover it’s a poor way of gauging inner faith, disposition of the heart and conversion of the soul, which is what really matters to God.

This is very well said.

 

[felsguy]

All tastes, as the French saying goes, exists in nature, and a cappella chant and the pipe organ aren’t the only tasteful ways of of expressing our faith musically. Trying to debate musical taste, even in the Church, is like trying to heard cats: much expenditure of energy with little result. Moreover it’s a poor way of gauging inner faith, disposition of the heart and conversion of the soul, which is what really matters to God.

.