As catholics should we believe in the efficacy or/and justice of min. wage?

[wabrams]

No I would rather have properly and fairly compensated teens.

Then get rid of minimum wage. For most jobs for teenagers, $7+ an hour is too much for zero job skills.

 

[wabrams]

I would like to interject the thread by encouraging a upper wage cap on grossly high paying occupations. There is a huge disproportionate on some jobs having huge huge payouts that completely ignores the difficulty of the work. I feel that people should be fairly compensated. This applies to both those in low wage, high workload jobs as well as extremely high way for high workload or demanding jobs.

I am generally appreciated for my opinions, advice, and moral reasoning; however, I will not take offense if anyone flames me for this view. My thoughts on the needs of all to have a home and fair work conditions have been suggested to be communist; however, this is definitely not the case. My family flee a communist nation whose corrupt politician and money ideology cause great anguish. I do wish the same here. However, the world does not have to be either free capitalism or bloody communism. The world is complex and so are the solutions to the worlds economic problems.

Let me get this straight: you fled a communist country but wish we would implement communist ideals like capping higher wage eraners. On the other hand, you wish also wish this country would have the same government problems of the country you fled?

 

[human_being]

**The minimum wage causes unemployment among unskilled workers and teenagers. **There is over 50 years of solid economic research to support this statement.

I was willing to hire young and unskilled workers; however it was illegal to pay them what they were worth in the marketplace. The government makes it illegal to pay wages that are below the minimum wage.

The minimum wage is a floor on wages that causes a surplus of young and unskilled workers if the minimum wage is above what employers are willing to pay (the equilibrium wage). Why should I hire unskilled and teenage workers when I can hire skilled and older workers for the same minimum wage?

About 70% of economists surveyed agree that the minimum wage is responsible for an increase in unemployment among the young and unskilled laborers IF that wage is above the equilibrium wage. The minimum wage would have no effect on unemployment if the minimum wage were below the equilibrium wage.

As an employer I experienced a surplus of unskilled workers seeking jobs when Clinton and Congress rapidly increased the minimum wage above the equilibrium level. I did not hire any of these unskilled workers because they were not eworth the minimum wage. I was able to hire graduates of a technical school for the minimum wage.

Government is only capable of producing surpluses of young and unskilled workers through a price floor such as the minimum wage. Additionally, government is only able to produce shortages through price ceilings.

Government is a parasite. It is only able to produce a shortage or surplus of resources through socialist meddling in the economy. Government meddling in the economy is the cause of the misallocation of resources. I am not aware of government producing much good. In the gospel, God told the people of Israel through Samuel something to that effect when they asked for a king. There is no such thing as a free lunch!

Politically funded biased research for 50 years is my thoughts on it. I wouldn’t guess that the 70% of economists surveyed were all from the GOP, would I?

 

[human_being]

Unbelievable ammount of greed and selfishness and justification for evil and greed on this thread…of ciourse that will be considered a socialist remark…but it is nothing less than truth…unbelievable that somebody would justify paying anybody less than the minimum wage…totally unbelievable that “catholics” would even come close to thinking that way…How about looking at competition as a competition for the sainthood…whoever pays their employees the most cash and bennies wins? Sounds more catholic to me than paying the least so that you all keep as much as you want of your earthly treasures…but how could you donate to charity if you paid your employees???
How about paying them enough to donate to charity also?..I’m sure there’d be a spot in heaven for you for that…:hey_bud:

 

[human_being]

Let me get this straight: you fled a communist country but wish we would implement communist ideals like capping higher wage eraners. On the other hand, you wish also wish this country would have the same government problems of the country you fled?

I think alot of times the people seek communism is because of the gross overcompensation of the few…ands the mistreatment of the masses…It’s not necessarily bad to think that way…It’s fairness and social justice…it’s thoughts of taking minimum wage away and making one class do all the labor whilst the few get super rich which lead to socialist and communist revolts…the greed breeds the socialism…it can be kept in check by supprting unions…that way the balance keeps the masses happy with their capitalism and there is no need for socialism…but ridding the country of unions and workers rights and leaving it to an unchecked freemarket system with no workers rights and unions and minimum wages will only take this country closer to socialist programs and revolts…for the rich will keep as much as they can and always say that the employee is not worth the wages he earns…IMO…

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I agree that the minimum wage concept is “really silly and that it is political arguing void of economic fundamentals.” Is it any wonder that **the concept of the minimum wage comes from the Socialist Platform of 1928 **and the minimum wage is now part of the platform of the Democrat Party? Socialism never does make any economic sense, does it?

Let us get rid of the minimum wage since “the minimum wage concept is really silly.” Call your Democrat Senators and Congressmen with this message.

Minimum wages have improved the US economy for 72 years, which is why the other guys have made no attempt to eliminate it during their power runs. Once it leaves the one way radio commentary facts come into play. It does seem you confuse minimum wage and living wage. Living wage is a very different matter. It would seem this may be the OP original problem also. Btw do you know US minimum wage peaked in the 1960’s and the second highest period was in the 1950’s. Neither of the peak periods is looked at as times of economic trouble. Also if you look at the Wikipedia page the least squares regression indicates a 50% increase in minimum wage would cost one job per hundred. Again for the unbiased reader that data like all data is based on the relationship of minimum wage to median wage thus the relationship changes

The roofing industry wages have basically no relationship to the minimum wage, thus roofers make out better economically if an optimum minimum wage is used.

Hope that helps you and the OP

 

[human_being]

About 70% of economists surveyed agree that the minimum wage is responsible for an increase in unemployment among the young and unskilled laborers (IF that wage is above the equilibrium wage). The minimum wage would have no effect on unemployment if the minimum wage were below the equilibrium wage. This information came out of one of my college economics books and, of course, it was referenced. Most of the other information is based on the economic research of Milton Friedman and the Chicago School of Economics.

Show me the study that says that an increase in the minimum wage increases GDP. I am NOT aware of such a report in all of my college economics books.

Oh yes the great Milton Freidman…your sources may worship him…mine despise him…
I thought everthing in chicago has to do with the mob or socialism or something along those lines…How comes Milton friedman and his Chicago school isn’t looked at that way by people like glenn Beck?..he’s ok bu the rest of chicago is corrupt? Why is he not considered corrupt also?

 

[stinkcat_14]

Politically funded biased research for 50 years is my thoughts on it. I wouldn’t guess that the 70% of economists surveyed were all from the GOP, would I?

Actually, I think that most economists are democrats rather than republicans. Here is one poll:

cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/16/dilbert.economy/index.html

The poll of these same economists, who clearly lean democratic shows that raising the minimum wage is very low on the list of economic priorities. While some may argue that it reeks of socialism, it is nowhere close to the level of socialism brought about by medicare and social security and there is no big movement among conservatives to get rid of those socialist programs.

 

[human_being]

Too many workers are putting in so little effort in their job, paying them minimum wage is unfair to the employer. We should be paid per performance, bottom line, we don’t get that with a fixed starting wage.

We also don’t get companies advancing because they are held back by that bottom line of retired on the job workers that are forced to milk at the company tit, per say, while others that perform well cannot get paid better because the funds have been dried up to allow it to do so. It’s a communistic approach in my book, it’s not to say there would be no employers that would exploit this type of system, but they would soon be out of business when all of their skilled staff leave to work for a company that advanced their staff because they don’t have to drag around the dead weight. This is why the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, the rich, if you look down the chain, are making their profits directly or indirectly due to cheap unregulated and typically exploited foreign labor with little to no governmental control.

Eliminating fixed wages would also require stricter regulations along only the top paying employees, for they are the ones with the most potential to abuse the system.

Your example of staff leaving for other places stops when all stoop to this level and eventually they will have to in order to compete.

 

[human_being]

Actually, I think that most economists are democrats rather than republicans. Here is one poll:

cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/16/dilbert.economy/index.html

The poll of these same economists, who clearly lean democratic shows that raising the minimum wage is very low on the list of economic priorities. While some may argue that it reeks of socialism, it is nowhere close to the level of socialism brought about by medicare and social security and there is no big movement among conservatives to get rid of those socialist programs.

Are you sure that they wouldn’t want medicare and social security cut just one teensy weensy bit? I doubt that. I suggest all in favor of getting rid of minimum wage should be forced to take on a presently minimum wage job for the next five years or so…and then come back and vote on the issue…of course no help would be allowed either…and maybe be required to “produce more” for that same wage…and watch the profits the owner gets while they are only paid that wage.

 

[human_being]

Actually, I think that most economists are democrats rather than republicans. Here is one poll:

cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/16/dilbert.economy/index.html

The poll of these same economists, who clearly lean democratic shows that raising the minimum wage is very low on the list of economic priorities. While some may argue that it reeks of socialism, it is nowhere close to the level of socialism brought about by medicare and social security and there is no big movement among conservatives to get rid of those socialist programs.

Who is to say that these weree the economists polled? I will read the article to find out if these were the ones…or was it only economists in the GOP school of thought…Nothing is believable anymore…what is believable is that people cannot live on minimum wage without gov’t assistance…that is believable to me.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Are you sure that they wouldn’t want medicare and social security cut just one teensy weensy bit? I doubt that.

I am not talking about cutting, I am talking about eliminating the programs altogether. After all, a little socialism is no better than a lot of socialism. Yet who is really going to be against socialism when it would cost them an election?

I suggest all in favor of getting rid of minimum wage should be forced to take on a presently minimum wage job for the next five years or so…and then come back and vote on the issue…of course no help would be allowed either…and maybe be required to “produce more” for that same wage…and watch the profits the owner gets while they are only paid that wage.

Here is the opposite question, why don’t I get paid the minimum wage? If employers have so much power, why don’t they reduce everyone’s salary to the minimum wage?

 

[human_being]

I am not talking about cutting, I am talking about eliminating the programs altogether. After all, a little socialism is no better than a lot of socialism. Yet who is really going to be against socialism when it would cost them an election?

Here is the opposite question, why don’t I get paid the minimum wage? If employers have so much power, why don’t they reduce everyone’s salary to the minimum wage?

Don’t give 'em any ideas…their looking for a well trained group to go for that kind of brainwashing IMO…:hey_bud: I love this guy to my left…He’s great.

 

[human_being]

I am not talking about cutting, I am talking about eliminating the programs altogether. After all, a little socialism is no better than a lot of socialism. Yet who is really going to be against socialism when it would cost them an election?

Here is the opposite question, why don’t I get paid the minimum wage? If employers have so much power, why don’t they reduce everyone’s salary to the minimum wage?

Maybe it would cost the election because if we lived without these programs…the streets would be filled with dieing old people…and capitalism would not look all too attractive, now, would it?..The people who advocate this stuff would love us at the whims of all employers at the mercy of almighty dollar…and living as in the third world begging for the chance to work 24 hours a day seven days a week for a bag of rice with no beans to go with it…whilst they live in Palaces.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Oh yes the great Milton Freidman…your sources may worship him…mine despise him…

The late Mr Freidman was a good guy and a great economist. The Chicago school is a great school. Mr Friedman helped us all with his work on “money supply” namely M1, and M2. That is different than his views on massive reduction in government action. I agree with much of Mr Freidman philosophy however not all of it. And more import all good economists will change any economic plan that fails. So if we tried some of these philosophies and the philosophy fails Mr Freidman would support changing the original plan. The problem in this thread is confusion between minimum wage benefits verses living wage issues

 

[CPA2]

Minimum wages have improved the US economy for 72 years, which is why the other guys have made no attempt to eliminate it during their power runs. Once it leaves the one way radio commentary facts come into play. It does seem you confuse minimum wage and living wage. Living wage is a very different matter. It would seem this may be the OP original problem also. Btw do you know US minimum wage peaked in the 1960’s and the second highest period was in the 1950’s. Neither of the peak periods is looked at as times of economic trouble. Also if you look at the Wikipedia page the least squares regression indicates a 50% increase in minimum wage would cost one job per hundred. Again for the unbiased reader that data like all data is based on the relationship of minimum wage to median wage thus the relationship changes

The roofing industry wages have basically no relationship to the minimum wage, thus roofers make out better economically if an optimum minimum wage is used.
Hope that helps you and the OP

You are correct. There is a difference between the socialist law, the minimum wage law, and a living wage, a Christian idea.

Labor is an economic resource. The laborer wants the most money that he can get and the employer wants to get labor for the least amount of money. We go through cycles of labor shortage and labor surplus, just as any other economic resource.

My point is that socialists do not believe in the freedom of individuals to negotiate wages. Socialists force us into the minimum wage laws.

At one time I had 45 employees. Today I have 0 employees. I just do not relish the idea of paying the government for the privilege of hiring employees! Business was more profitable and more simple before we hired those 45 employees!

 

[stinkcat_14]

At one time I had 45 employees. Today I have 0 employees. I just do not relish the idea of paying the government for the privilege of hiring employees!

What does this have to do with the minimum wage? The money doesn’t go to the government, it goes directly to the employee.

 

[Ender]

Unbelievable ammount of greed and selfishness and justification for evil and greed on this thread…of ciourse that will be considered a socialist remark…but it is nothing less than truth…unbelievable that somebody would justify paying anybody less than the minimum wage

If you believe this to be a moral issue then state what the minimum wage should be set at. $8? $10? $20? $17.43? You should be able to apply Catholic teaching to the problem and come up with a specific answer, and that should be pretty much the exact same answer that other “moral” people come up with. You cannot argue that someone elses opinion of what the wage should be set to is immoral if you are not able to define what the moral value is.

Ender

 

[CPA2]

What does this have to do with the minimum wage? The money doesn’t go to the government, it goes directly to the employee.

Every time the government raised the minimum wage, I had to raise the wages of all 45 employees. Additionally, I had to hire a bookkeeper to keep track of payroll taxes, etc. All of that is unnecessary overhead that added zero to my bottom line. The government cost me money and aggravation. Thanks to computers and powerful CPA software, I do not need any employees. I now touch all numbers!

 

[stinkcat_14]

Every time the government raised the minimum wage, I had to raise the wages of all 45 employees.

Just curious, but what kind of business were you running that hired 45 minimum wage earners?

Additionally, I had to hire a bookkeeper to keep track of payroll taxes, etc. All of that is unnecessary overhead that added zero to my bottom line. The government cost me money and aggravation.

But this has nothing to do with the minimum wage. Even if the minimum wage didn’t exist you would still have to pay the medicare tax that supports that socialist program.

Thanks to computers and powerful CPA software, I do not need any employees. I now touch all numbers!

At what wage rate would you switch back to people?