As God is omniscient, he knew the fall would come....some problems in explaining

  • Thread starter Thread starter alice24
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
A

alice24

Guest
…All the salvation/free will/fall theology makes perfectly sense for me in a deep, spiritual way, I am able to belive it, but I´m not able to teach it. My husband recently discussed some questions that are so basic with me and I realized I have limited resources to explain salvation and the need for it. When I started to believe, It was a faith grown in experience. I experienced huge pan and I forgave the people who caused it, I was responsible for pain, out of my sins and the sins of others, and therefor accepted the need of salvation.
The thing is, he didn´t experienced this stuff.
Why should god not be able to forgive out of his own power, why the sacrifice of the son? He didn´t had to become human to understand humanity as a wise god.
Why good deeds, as long as someone can murder and rape and asks for forgiveness?
I thought ike this myself years ago, but it was not an intellectual change.
Any good non-emotional ways of understanding that are not plain simple sin and repentance-catechesis`?
 
I know this, but the argument against could be “punishment is only temporal, so eternal is at least the same for the murder and the victim”
 
alice24 said:
“punishment is only temporal, so eternal is at least the same for the murder and the victim”
Click to expand...
Reward and punishment in this world are only temporal. reward and punishment in the next world are eternal.
And why should not the murderer (if he repents) receive eternal joy alongside his victim? Every one of us is guilty of sin. Every one of us has offended God. If I can be forgiven why should not those who hurt me also be forgiven?
Also remember that forgiveness depends on repentance. A repentant murderer has forgiveness. One who refuses to repent has not.

Look at the Our Father prayer: Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
 
Last edited:
Zaccheus said:
And why should not the murderer (if he repents) receive eternal joy alongside his victim? Every one of us is guilty of sin. Every one of us has offended God. If I can be forgiven why should not those who hurt me also be forgiven?
Click to expand...
Because for non-christians, there is not one sin like another. Very many people have a hard time forgiving the murderers of their children or accepting other people to do so.
 
The sacrifice on the cross gives us an objective act of Gods love to believe in. That act, of God, Himself, suffering excruciating humiliation, rejection, torture, and physical death at the hands of His own sinful creation in spite of their sins and hatred of Him, reveals His true nature, the nature of a love so vast and wide and deep and merciful that we should be drawn to and overwhelmed by it. And as we’re ready we can be. But He gives us that choice; He won’t force us; He won’t override our wills. That should be obvious. Because our own justice or righteousness increases to the extent that we “own” it, that we choose God even as grace is necessary to help achieve this. Another way of saying this is that, as we come to love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves we’re attaining the perfection God has for us, having placed His creation in a state of “journeying to perfection” as the Church teaches.

IOW, the saved are those who really have cooperated with Gods grace to the extent they can with the opportunities given: time, revelation/knowledge, experience, and grace, itself:
"From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." Luke 12:48

The Thief on the Cross had only the opportunity to believe and then confess that faith and he did just that, the best he could possibly do. Those with more time have more demanded of them after first turning to God. The Parable of the Talents applies here as well.

God’s purpose has always been to restore and even increase the justice of His wayward creation, not merely to ignore our waywardness, our loss of justice. The saved really are those who’ve striven and persevered and proven themselves, not without the help of grace. They’re not to be just a bunch of otherwise wretched worthless worms that God decided to save anyway while damning the rest. God knows our worth and wants to elicit it as He does a work in us once we’ve turned back to Him, having been reconciled by the cross. That work is a process, made possible, IOW, by His indwelling, by the communion with Him that man was made for. God wants more from-and for-us than we can possibly imagine.
 
Last edited:
Because on earth, it is within ‘Time,’ which means you can grow, make amends, atone, repent.

In Eternity you will remain in the state achieved by death; whether of eternal torment, or eternal salvation.

God knew the Fall would happen so He already set about plans to send Jesus, the eucharist and the Holy spirit, To suffer for our sins and pay our price to get us HOME to Heaven.

If in confusion:
Return with a focus to God’s mercy and seek God’s mercy with all your heart/ soul/ mind/ strength
 
Last edited:
I think he is rather confused why god didn´t simply said “excuse accepted” or “I don´t care for you feeling sorry, murder is murder”, to make it plain and simple. In my eyes, forgivness through the sacrifice of jesus wouldn´t have been necessary for god the almighty, but for US humans to be near god´s grace. I just have difficulties making somene else this a logical way of thinking…
But here are some great toughts in the lines, thank you all!
 
alice24 said:
I think he is rather confused why god didn´t simply said “excuse accepted” or “I don´t care for you feeling sorry, murder is murder”, to make it plain and simple. In my eyes, forgivness through the sacrifice of jesus wouldn´t have been necessary for god the almighty, but for US humans to be near god´s grace. I just have difficulties making somene else this a logical way of thinking…
But here are some great toughts in the lines, thank you all!
Click to expand...
Why didn’t God just prevent Adam from sinning to begin with and preclude the whole mess that resulted? God’s purpose has always been to take lemons and make lemonade, to bring something even greater out of the evil that resulted from the Fall. And that ‘something greater’ involves man’s will, something that God has made sort of sovereign, something He wants to cultivate and inform and draw into rectitude, into alignment with His perfect will, over time and without force or coercion. In this way we can grow into the beings He created us to be, as we’re willing to cooperate. That very cooperation is an aspect of our justice or righteousness IOW. From the Catechism:

I. Freedom and Responsibility

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

And, yes, presumably God didn’t need to do things the way He did; He simply did them that way according to His wisdom, and for our own good.
 
Last edited:
alice24 said:
I think he is rather confused why god didn´t simply said “excuse accepted” or “I don´t care for you feeling sorry, murder is murder”, to make it plain and simple.
Click to expand...
God did not make people to be plain and simple. The sacrifice of Jesus is fitting for us as an example of how to live.

You’re husband can have an acceptance of what is instead of thinking that something is wrong and he figures God should have done better.
 
  1. God is love. No more complicated than that.
  2. Our love must be offered in complete freedom, or it is forced and not true love.
  3. Mankind abused that freedom, loving himself in preference to God (as did 1/3 of the angels) and fell from grace.
  4. The inscrutable God, who had demanded sacrifice from those under the law, knew that He would offer salvation to the entire world, both Gentile and Jew.
  5. His covenants had been with the Hebrews only.
  6. The final covenant had to be different - universal, covering all who would accept it - and there’s the rub.
  7. Out of perfect divine love, Christ offered Himself as the final sacrifice in atonement for our sins.
  8. Love desires the good of the “other” - us.
  9. Love does not count the cost - even giving a Son over to murderers.
  10. Since God’s forgiveness is complete, ours must be as well. Jesus on the cross and Saint Stephen the martyr (Acts 6) being perfect examples.
  11. Restoration of our relationship with God is predicated upon true repentance.
  12. We are called to be perfect - even in forgiveness - as God our Father is perfect.
  13. We cannot merit an eternity of bliss, enjoying the Beatific Vision, even by an infinite number of lifetimes of faith and charity. Thus, we rely on God’s mercy and grace - all springing from His love.
  14. Eternal damnation is the perfect justice for those who, being forewarned, reject God. And, strange of strange, we will be satisfied that souls are in hell, as we will be given understanding that everything about God, including His justice, is perfect and therefore, admirable and lovable. Given our current limitations, this concept is nearly impossible for us to grasp.
  15. God, Who consists of love, causes no evil, but permits it due to the freedom He gave us - yet He alone can bring good from every evil. He will not reject a truly repentant heart, thus all have the potential to enter the Kingdom. Will they?
It could go on and on, but we of imperfect and fickle love always have trouble understanding love in its perfection and at its source. Pardon me if I drifted.
 
Last edited:
Hello, Alice. Great topic!
alice24 said:
Why should god not be able to forgive out of his own power
Click to expand...
He does. There is a theology of seeing that God forgave “before always”, that He forgave as soon as He knew we would defy.
alice24 said:
I experienced huge pan and I forgave the people who caused it, I was responsible for pain, out of my sins and the sins of others, and therefor accepted the need of salvation.
Click to expand...
The experience, in the outcome, was a blessing!
alice24 said:
he sacrifice of the son?
Click to expand...
The idea of Jesus having to die in order for God to forgive is not consistent with a God who loves unconditionally.

alice24 said:
Why good deeds, as long as someone can murder and rape and asks for forgiveness?
Click to expand...
Because it is our nature to do the good. Our doing good is trained and nurtured by empathy and awareness, which is enhanced through faith and forgiveness, as you have experienced. On the flip side, it is very difficult for a person with an empathy disability (psychopath) to understand why one is to do good. For those individuals, it is important to have punishments in place.

We forgive everyone because the alternative, to hold grudges, is enslavement. It is difficult to think of God being so enslaved.

A mature forgiveness begins with understanding.
alice24 said:
Any good non-emotional ways of understanding
Click to expand...
In my experience, an understanding has to include emotions, because it is the emotions themselves that block understanding. For example, you forgave people who caused you pain. When I take the steps to understand exactly why I would do exactly what someone else did against me, then that understanding leads to a forgiveness. However, it is very difficult emotionally to “go there”, to try to understand why people do their worst.
 
po18guy said:
  1. Gos is love. No more complicated than that.
  2. Our love must be offered in complete freedom, or it is forced and not true love.
  3. Mankind abused that freedom, loving himself in preference to God (as did 1/3 of the angels) and fell from grace.
  4. The inscrutable God, who had demanded sacrifice from those under the law, knew that He would offer salvation to the entire world, both Gentile and Jew.
  5. His covenants had been with the Hebrews only.
  6. The final covenant had to be different - universal, covering all who would accept it - and there’s the rub.
  7. Out of perfect divine love, Christ offered Himself as the final sacrifice in atonement for our sins.
  8. Love desires the good of the “other” - us.
  9. Love does not count the cost - even giving a Son over to murderers.
  10. Since God’s forgiveness is complete, ours must be as well. Jesus on the cross and Saint Stephen the martyr (Acts 6) being perfect examples.
  11. Restoration of our relationship with God is predicated upon true repentance.
  12. We are called to be perfect - even in forgiveness - as God our Father is perfect.
  13. We cannot merit an eternity of bliss, enjoying the Beatific Vision, even by an infinite number of lifetimes of faith and charity. Thus, we rely on God’s mercy and grace - all springing from His love.
  14. Eternal damnation is the perfect justice for those who, being forewarned, reject God. And, strange of strange, we will be satisfied that souls are in hell, as we will be given understanding that everything about God, including His justice, is perfect and therefore, admirable and lovable. Given our current limitations, this concept is nearly impossible for us to grasp.
  15. God, Who consists of love, causes no evil, but permits it due to the freedom He gave us - yet He alone can bring good from every evil. He will not reject a truly repentant heart, thus all have the potential to enter the Kingdom. Will they?
It could go on and on, but we of imperfect and fickle love always have trouble understanding love in its perfection and at its source. Pardon me if I drifted.
Click to expand...
They will BY THE GRACE OF GOD.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top