As the Flame of Catholic Dissent Dies Out

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This thread is a head-scratcher. As a convert in 2006, I guess I’m not as emotionally pre-loaded as many on both sides of this argument. Thank God. I think it’s more important to feed the hungry than spat about altar rails.
A Priori I think feeding the hungry is extremely important. And deeply appreciate the care for the world that liberal Catholics often display.

And I agree that is more important than spatting as you put it.

But ten years in the Church travelling through many countries many hundreds of Novus Ordo masses … I go daily and it´s usually Novus Ordo because TLM is not easily accessible …

has convinced me that the issue of lack of reverence is a very very serious issue.

To kneel at an altar rail is to say with *the whole of your body *and to remind yourself with the whole of your body that reverence before the inestimably precious gift of the Blessed Sacrament is deserved. deserved more than you can ever imagine for the gift being given to you …

And ten years have served to convince me that the Church of diminished reverence is dying …

I am thus for feeding the hungry AND recovering reverence and humillity before the most unimaginable gift we can have ,
 
Here is my take on the current culture (take with a teaspoon of salt, since I am a 26 year old man who fled the liberal politics of Massachusetts for Montana, where men are still men and my Copenhagen isnt looked on as the worst evil since my diesel pickup)

The absolute best way to understand a culture is to look at the art it produces, without getting into the art imitating life/life imitating art debate. We went from a generation of leave it to beaver, the waltons, the thin man series, Gone With the Wind, I love Lucy, Big Band, music that had values which promoted something GOOD, to a generation that LOVED the show Friends (which had EVERY member of the cast in multiple unmarried sexual relations, including showing the after sex bed scenes) and where the blockbuster movies of today have graphic sex scenes. Our television nowadays has “A shot at Love with Tila Tequila”, Big Brother, etc. etc. etc.

I have looked at what came before all this and found it good. I have looked at what is going on today and found it bad, if not downright evil. Some of what we malign has a positive impact (Tupac actually had some very good messages in his albums) but the VAST majority of our culture has substituted a worship of God for a worship of Self. This worship of self, this false Idol of the Id/ego, is what has caused ALL of this. The fact that Vatican II came out when our culture was undergoing this incredible de-deification of society was simply bad luck. It will become better understood over time, and it will be corrected, but it will take a LONG time to correct, generations perhaps, and it may never return to the wholesomeness that I long for.

The abuses in the CC came from the influence of society with its push to eliminate God from society. We are often told today that a politician has to leave their religion at the door to the assembly. We are told that we should not vote according to our religion (our conscience). We are told that we should be accepting of others, even when those others are a part of a culture that is definitively set against all we hold dear (the Gay culture, the womens lib movement, heck, even accepting Islam as a peaceful culture[not counting the religion here, just the culture]).

It is people like the posters on this site that are going to help to stem the tide of de-deification of society. It is places like Catholic Answers and their protestant counterparts that are going to give people hope and strength to fight this long battle. It is not a battle which can be won in a day. This is a battle much more like type 2 diabetes, which requires care and and almost obsessive attention to detail to control. We need to understand that to fight this we must ALL pay attention to those things we do and say and ensure that they are in line with our consciences.

Vigilance is the word of our fight, since we must all maintain it. Vigilance entails both a watchful remaining in the light and the willingness to respond to these encroachments into our lives. It is a mandatory if we are to return to wholesomeness, a true definition of family, and the truth taught by the Bible and the the Magisterium. If we fail in this, our society will crumble as all others which faced these problems have and we will be thrust into a storm the likes of which have not been seen since the fall of Rome.

Stay vigilant my friends. Keep the watch through this long night. And always remember that it is always darkest before the dawn but God always brings the sun to shed light on the evils done in darkness.

FSC
 
In the past there was this line: “The devil made me do it.” I guess I’m a little surprised when I read posts that seem to say: “Vatican II made me do it.” As if changing from Latin to English and the priest facing the congregation put evil or non-Catholic thoughts in our minds. No more abstaining from meat on Fridays? That does it! I’m going to do something against Church teaching!

In 1973, us guys understood that we should not have sex with our girlfriends or move in with them in an unmarried state. We understood that marriage was a serious, life-long commitment. We got that.

But we trusted these other people. Some of them would go on and on about how ‘free’ we needed to be. And stupid us, after spending most of our lives till then trusting other people, we thought we’d at least give them benefit of the doubt. They said, “trust us, we have a better way.” By the time many of us found out we had been led down the wrong path, it was a bit too late. Oh sure, some of us came back to the Church, thank God, but too many are still out there, lost. Too far away from Church and prayer they don’t know where to turn. That’s one reason the Church is running ads inviting Catholics to return.

I encourage each one of us to do our part.

Peace,
Ed
I find something quite genuinely moving about this post Ed.

Also in the last post in this thread by FidesSpesCaritas … speaking of cultural products …

In Europe I hardly meet people with these kind of traditional values … commitments

But although obviously the causes of the present malaise are greater than Vatican II, just because there isn´t an obvious automatic leap from Vatican II changes to rebellion does not to my mind invalidate the damage many feel in the changes in the wake of Vatican II.

Subtle things can be very important.

I recall an elderly Irish woman I knew once. Not well educated and who probably knows almost nothing about these debates.

But she recalled the old Mass and said to me something like this her beautiful Irish lilt

“You know Roger when I used to go to Mass back in the old days, I felt I was looking into the face of God.But then they turned the priest around and I was looking into the face of a man …”

For centuries Eastern Orthodox and Catholics celebrated with priest turned Ad Deum … Could there not be toward a deep reason and wisdom in the original inspiration for this wisdom?

I do not know if my Irish friend would have even known what Ad Deum meant … but she felt it in her heart.

Towards God …
 
I find something quite genuinely moving about this post Ed.

Also in the last post in this thread by FidesSpesCaritas … speaking of cultural products …

In Europe I hardly meet people with these kind of traditional values … commitments

But although obviously the causes of the present malaise are greater than Vatican II, just because there isn´t an obvious automatic leap from Vatican II changes to rebellion does not to my mind invalidate the damage many feel in the changes in the wake of Vatican II.

Subtle things can be very important.

I recall an elderly Irish woman I knew once. Not well educated and who probably knows almost nothing about these debates.

But she recalled the old Mass and said to me something like this her beautiful Irish lilt

“You know Roger when I used to go to Mass back in the old days, I felt I was looking into the face of God.But then they turned the priest around and I was looking into the face of a man …”

For centuries Eastern Orthodox and Catholics celebrated with priest turned Ad Deum … Could there not be toward a deep reason and wisdom in the original inspiration for this wisdom?

I do not know if my Irish friend would have even known what Ad Deum meant … but she felt it in her heart.

Towards God …
One of the great sorrows of my conversion is that it happened after the priest turned to face the congregation. I have missed that, in a way that I cannot explain, since I began my journey home. I pray that that will become the norm again, not because I think it is imiproper for a priest to face the congregation, but because I see that aspect (the ad deum posture apparently) as the more reverential and makes the priest a servant of the parish, instead of a server… if you know what I mean… hard to explain.

FSC
 
…18 year old girls didn’t know a whole lot more then than they do know, and they were not any more wise. In fact, 18 year old girls now my know a lot more, simply because the means of communication and the depth and breadth of communication now is so much wider.
Then they [those who entered after V-II] should have known more about what they were getting into.
 
Then they [those who entered after V-II] should have known more about what they were getting into.
Known more about what? I didn’t become less Catholic after Vatican II. We went from Latin to English, the priest faced the congregation and the ban on eating meat on Friday was lifted. People were still obedient until the outside world decided to abuse our trust and lead us by the hand in the wrong direction.

Peace,
Ed
 
Then they [those who entered after V-II] should have known more about what they were getting into.
18 year old girls in the 1940s and the 1950s make for a good definition of naievety. Did they know what they were getting in for (what they were joining, and why)? Well, yes and no. Yes, they knew what existed at the time they joined. 15 to 25 years later, the world around them was going through a massive whip-snap unlike anything in the history of the world before. As most nuns were not in contemplative orders, most were out in the world doing something - nursing, teaching, etc. and were just about as exposed as those around them who were not professed.

In addition, many of them were not overly sophisiticated in terms of their training; they were not studying to be priests, and so they did not necessarily have a grasp on religion much above a high school level unless they went to college; and that was no guarantee they would learn a lot of theology. Religion perhaps, but not theology.

And suddenly, without a whole lot of direction, they had directives coming down from Rome, without much of anything in the way of preparation or specific rules as to how they were to approach the issues. And not unlike a child that has been strictly regimented at home and then suddenly one day finds themself at a college far away, and with no one to write or enforce any rules, they reacted in a similar fashion - there was a mental, emotional responce of going from repression to absolute unfettered freedom and common sense, if any existed, was lost.

Keep in mind that the mindset prior to and during Vatican 2 was that there was the world as it is - that is, they lived in community with little or no personal freedom. They freely gave that up - yes, at age 18, when often there had been no personal freedom to begin with - but joining a convent and becoming 21, or 25, or 32 does not mean that one has shouldered personal responsibilites for one’s total decisions. The convent - through their superiors - determined when they got up, where they went, what they ate, how they dressed, what job(s) or professions they might be involved in; when they prayed, when they went to bed. And suddenly, it appeared they could have some personal freedom in making what Rome intended to be somewhat staid, carefully thought out gradual changes.

Only it wasn’t gradual, and it wasn’t staid.

They were further caught up in a world that was going through a radical secularized revision of what it meant to be a woman. That had nothing whatsoever to do with V2; it was simply what was going on in society at the same time. The net result was that Rome, by directing them to review, for example, their habits (some of which were literally dangerous, e.g. in driving or next to impossible to enter a fehicle while wearing), habits that went back multiple centuries in some instances; and by directing them to review their charism, without providing a specific process, gave them what appeared to be total, unfettered discretion to change at a time that secular society was going through radical changes. It was the effective equivalent of throwing gasoline on a raging fire and the backdraft caught almost everyone.

It also helps to keep in mind that one underlying presumption appears to be that those who joined convents did so for solid, valid reasons. Some did, and in fact many may have; but it would be the height of ignorance to presume that all did.
 
Known more about what? I didn’t become less Catholic after Vatican II. We went from Latin to English, the priest faced the congregation and the ban on eating meat on Friday was lifted. People were still obedient until the outside world decided to abuse our trust and lead us by the hand in the wrong direction.

Peace,
Ed
Look. My post said words to the effect that no one forced them into the life of a religious with vows of chastity, poverty, and obedience. Like the sergeant told me in the military, “Son, no one forced you to put on that uniform.” They had to know what they were getting in to, like wearing the habit, etc. A nun explained that to my catechism class as far back as 1948, for cryin’ out loud. When they took those vows, they were saying that they willing and able do the program. So why did they later complain that they were unwilling? Why did they become a religious in the first place?

All I’m saying is the book never addressed this question.
 
Look. My post said words to the effect that no one forced them into the life of a religious with vows of chastity, poverty, and obedience. Like the sergeant told me in the military, “Son, no one forced you to put on that uniform.” They had to know what they were getting in to, like wearing the habit, etc. A nun explained that to my catechism class as far back as 1948, for cryin’ out loud. When they took those vows, they were saying that they willing and able do the program. So why did they later complain that they were unwilling? Why did they become a religious in the first place?

All I’m saying is the book never addressed this question.
This article from TIME magazine from 1970 should answer some of your questions.

time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19700223,00.html

Peace,
Ed
 

And suddenly, without a whole lot of direction, they had directives coming down from Rome, without much of anything in the way of preparation or specific rules as to how they were to approach the issues. …
This is just flat not true. They were given plenty, including Canon Law. What is there about “Must wear a distinctive religious garb, live in a common community, pray together, and work in the area of their original founder, that is so difficult to understand? Huh?
And some of the “traditionalist” sisters complained to Rome that the guidelines were never promulgated but were kept from them by the “change-oriented” sisters who captured the leadership positions by political manipulation. To take your example, the issue of safety while wearing the veil was addressed by the guidelines which also requested the recommendations. They ignored the request for recommendations and just eliminated the wearing of religious garments altogether.
The question remains unanswered as to why those whose personality prefers change for no other reason than it entertains them would join an essentially changeless, 2,000-year-old organization.
 
Here is my take on the current culture (take with a teaspoon of salt, since I am a 26 year old man who fled the liberal politics of Massachusetts for Montana, where men are still men and my Copenhagen isnt looked on as the worst evil since my diesel pickup)

… I have looked at what came before all this and found it good. I have looked at what is going on today and found it bad, if not downright evil. … The abuses in the CC came from the influence of society with its push to eliminate God from society. We are often told today that a politician has to leave their religion at the door to the assembly. We are told that we should not vote according to our religion (our conscience). We are told that we should be accepting of others, even when those others are a part of a culture that is definitively set against all we hold dear (the Gay culture, the womens lib movement, heck, even accepting Islam as a peaceful culture[not counting the religion here, just the culture]). … Vigilance is the word of our fight, since we must all maintain it. Vigilance entails both a watchful remaining in the light and the willingness to respond to these encroachments into our lives. It is a mandatory if we are to return to wholesomeness, a true definition of family, and the truth taught by the Bible and the the Magisterium. If we fail in this, our society will crumble as all others which faced these problems have and we will be thrust into a storm the likes of which have not been seen since the fall of Rome.

Stay vigilant my friends. Keep the watch through this long night. And always remember that it is always darkest before the dawn but God always brings the sun to shed light on the evils done in darkness.
Great post, FSC.
 
The question remains unanswered as to why those whose personality **prefers change for no other reason than it entertains them **would join an essentially changeless, 2,000-year-old organization.
Ok, but very many, on the forefront of the change-agenda, were acting in good faith, believing that it was the right thing. Many others, having lived lives of obedience, were directed by radical priests or even psychologists (see William Coulson’s story of the IHM sisters). Not all were innocent, but our convents were also not filled with egotistical manipulators. There’s a lot of blame to go around and also a lot of mercy needed.

(This is a topic where I think most of us are in 99% agreement and we’re just arguing about the details on the edges.)
 
To reggieM,

Yet we have Catholics today who don’t how it all started. As far as assigning blame, how many of us really knew and understood in the 1960s what was going on in the Church as regards certain theologians and dissenters? I felt no different after Vatican II as before. Some external things had changed but the core remained.

If Catholics are not going to be too trusting in the future and not understand how the wolves operate, there is another chance for misplaced compassion on our part. I want to love all people, I do. But I know there are some who lay in wait just as we are told in the Bible. One consistent feature over the last 40 years is for this wolf to constantly change its name and its outward appearance, always claiming to be something new. We’ve been conditioned to accept, or at least recognize, that hair styles, clothing and even the way our cars look will continue to change.

That is a clue. The word Bright has recently been added, along with freethought and skeptic. If the disguise is successful, we think we are seeing a brand new idea. And the enticement is always the same: Hi. I’m new. I’m different. I’m better than the old ways. From the Hippies to a certain talk show host extolling the virtues of a man who wrote a book. A book that makes her believe there are many paths to God. And she has the national audience to spread this message.

We need vigilence, but we need to recognize the new form and name of the adversary.

Peace,
Ed
 
Ed – I totally agree with you and that was a very good explanantion of the deceptive situations we face (and how to recognize them).
Many do not know how it happened, or what happened. I could not pretend to know such things myself. You’re right, nobody really imagined what was happening, or that there would be an evil result.
I lived through some of the revolutionary changes in the late 60s and early 70s. The changes didn’t stop then, they actually got worse as they were institutionalized in the '80s.
But I do recall as a young boy in Catholic school, when the sisters changed to a modernized habit it shocked me. I thought, literally, that the world was certainly coming to an end. It was apocalyptic for me – in a child’s unconscious I just saw darkness all around. The peace and devotion and serenity that I had known and loved from the teaching Sisters was gone. They had created an atmosphere of prayer and devotion in the school before, and they were the same sisters – but there was nothing like those old habits to create an atmosphere. Now they would probably say that I was a perfect example of why they had to change – I had created an illusion of Catholic devotedness and sacrifice based on some clothing they wore. But the devotion and intensity of their lives died off also. Eventually, we had laymen and women teaching in place of sisters (in a few short years) and in comparison, it was like all hell had broken loose. What actually happened to some of the sisters in real life is more shocking than I want to relate here – but I’ll just say that the revolution was overwhelming in many ways.
It definitely wasn’t just Vatican II, the changing of habits, turning the priest around or singing new hymns – it was a demonic spirit in society that was gaining the upper hand. There was the commercialized rebellion in music (and the arts followed) but that was a very seductive voice that Catholic teachers and pastors struggled to compete against.
In many ways, we’re far better off now. The popular entertainment is worse (as you’ve detailed elsewhere) but fewer Catholic teachers feel the need to accomodate to it.
I read from young Catholics here on CAF who are fervent disciples of Christ and are very well-equipped to challenge the modern world.
We had such apostles back then but I think they lacked support and their voices were almost completely drowned out.

Perhaps our enemy’s attacks have made us much stronger in the long run.
 
That is a clue. The word Bright has recently been added, along with freethought and skeptic. If the disguise is successful, we think we are seeing a brand new idea. And the enticement is always the same: Hi. I’m new. I’m different. I’m better than the old ways. From the Hippies to a certain talk show host extolling the virtues of a man who wrote a book. A book that makes her believe there are many paths to God. And she has the national audience to spread this message.

We need vigilence, but we need to recognize the new form and name of the adversary.
There is more that can be done, and must be done. For about 150 years the Popes warned against the modern errors that we are SATURATED with today. These errors are very subtle and deceptive. They almost always cloth themselves in the clothing of sheep. As Pope Leo XIII wrote, in our day the devil has transformed himself into an angel of light, in oder to deceive the unwarey. The Pope spotted these errors right away and shined the light of truth upon them. It is this light that will enable us to see the snares. Without reading these old encyclical I don’t think anyone will keep from being deceived. The errors are too subtle, and too universal. Formally condemned errors are now looked upon as the glory of our age.

I’m going to give you a list of encyclicals that shine the light of truth on the modern errors. These should be STUDIED (not just read) one at a time, preferably with a like-minded Catholics, or, even better, a small group of Catholics. Here’s the ones to begin with:

**1. Libertas, by Pope Leo XIII. **This encyclical deals direcly with the modern errors of our day. These same errors were addressed in many encyclicals, but were most clearly condemned in Libertas. Libertas is deep, but if you taken the time to read it and really understand it, you will be able to spot errors that you did not even suspect to be errors at this time. This is my favorite encyclical as it shines the bright light of truth on errors that are everywhere.

2.) Quas Primus of Pope Pius IX, 1925: This is also a must read. You will notice the similarities between the teaching of this encyclical and Libertas.

**3.) Humanun Genis of Leo XIII: ** This will show you the plans of the enemy. You will notice that what the enemy planned is exactly where we are today.

I would begin with these three and read them in the order I listed them. In studying these old encyclicals we will be doing our part in this crisis; and by doing our part, we can be sure that God will give us the light necessary to keep from being led astray.
 
In my last year of Catholic High School, 1973, I watched as the nun leading a mandatory class in Sex Education tried not to roll her eyes. We were told we were too stupid to really understand the “birds and the bees” and we needed this. Oh brother. What a waste of time.

Always,always, always, it was a matter of trust. Trusting the wrong people.

It was the outsiders who had an interest in change, not us. And what did they do? Go to the courts and demand to legalize sin under cover of the First Amendment? How much great art has been produced by the porn industry?

Recently, in Detroit, a local strip club owner said he was ready to spend millions to defend against restrictions proposed that would place certain limits on his business. Where are the Women’s Libbers protesting against the exploitation of women? Regarding women as only objects for men?

I’m not angry. I’m only pointing out specific things because a general description is not what we need. A specific description of a specific problem is required. That way, we can say to our brothers and sisters: for the sake of your souls, out of respect for human dignity, don’t go there.

Yes, I know people who have stopped watching TV and their lives are better for it.

I enjoy my life a lot more now that I’ve eliminated certain distractions and problems.

And I’m hearing more about young people who have that same dedication for living holy lives as some have maintained all these years. Jesus said to not judge by outside appearances.

I was there when the traditional habit gave way to the partial habit. I don’t believe the nuns thought they were being forced into something. My mother was close friends with a few. We all really loved those nuns, our priests and lay teachers.

Has anyone noticed how much emotion is behind recent attempts to legalize sin? How just appealing to the intellect is not enough? Please, please, let us do this or that? It’s OK. It’s OK. And then I’m right back to 1968 or 1972.

God help us,
Ed
 
18 year old girls in the 1940s and the 1950s make for a good definition of naievety. Did they know what they were getting in for (what they were joining, and why)? Well, yes and no. Yes, they knew what existed at the time they joined. 15 to 25 years later, the world around them was going through a massive whip-snap unlike anything in the history of the world before. As most nuns were not in contemplative orders, most were out in the world doing something - nursing, teaching, etc. and were just about as exposed as those around them who were not professed.

In addition, many of them were not overly sophisiticated in terms of their training; they were not studying to be priests, and so they did not necessarily have a grasp on religion much above a high school level unless they went to college; and that was no guarantee they would learn a lot of theology. Religion perhaps, but not theology.

And suddenly, without a whole lot of direction, they had directives coming down from Rome, without much of anything in the way of preparation or specific rules as to how they were to approach the issues. And not unlike a child that has been strictly regimented at home and then suddenly one day finds themself at a college far away, and with no one to write or enforce any rules, they reacted in a similar fashion - there was a mental, emotional responce of going from repression to absolute unfettered freedom and common sense, if any existed, was lost.

Keep in mind that the mindset prior to and during Vatican 2 was that there was the world as it is - that is, they lived in community with little or no personal freedom. They freely gave that up - yes, at age 18, when often there had been no personal freedom to begin with - but joining a convent and becoming 21, or 25, or 32 does not mean that one has shouldered personal responsibilites for one’s total decisions. The convent - through their superiors - determined when they got up, where they went, what they ate, how they dressed, what job(s) or professions they might be involved in; when they prayed, when they went to bed. And suddenly, it appeared they could have some personal freedom in making what Rome intended to be somewhat staid, carefully thought out gradual changes.

Only it wasn’t gradual, and it wasn’t staid.

They were further caught up in a world that was going through a radical secularized revision of what it meant to be a woman. That had nothing whatsoever to do with V2; it was simply what was going on in society at the same time. The net result was that Rome, by directing them to review, for example, their habits (some of which were literally dangerous, e.g. in driving or next to impossible to enter a fehicle while wearing), habits that went back multiple centuries in some instances; and by directing them to review their charism, without providing a specific process, gave them what appeared to be total, unfettered discretion to change at a time that secular society was going through radical changes. It was the effective equivalent of throwing gasoline on a raging fire and the backdraft caught almost everyone.

It also helps to keep in mind that one underlying presumption appears to be that those who joined convents did so for solid, valid reasons. Some did, and in fact many may have; but it would be the height of ignorance to presume that all did.
I have heard that Joseph Ratzinger did not wake to the reality of the situation until the events of 1968. He reminds of Catholic reformers of the 1520 as they were confronted with Lutheranism: shocked by the radicalism of it all and finding themselves having to side with men they had criticized, and now trying to awaken these men to the peril that the Church faced. These poor women could not understand what faced them. Small wonder when the theologians were at sea, and some were steering the ship toward the rocks.
 
But I do recall as a young boy in Catholic school, when the sisters changed to a modernized habit it shocked me. I thought, literally, that the world was certainly coming to an end. It was apocalyptic for me – in a child’s unconscious I just saw darkness all around. The peace and devotion and serenity that I had known and loved from the teaching Sisters was gone. They had created an atmosphere of prayer and devotion in the school before, and they were the same sisters – but there was nothing like those old habits to create an atmosphere. Now they would probably say that I was a perfect example of why they had to change – I had created an illusion of Catholic devotedness and sacrifice based on some clothing they wore. But the devotion and intensity of their lives died off also. Eventually, we had laymen and women teaching in place of sisters (in a few short years) and in comparison, it was like all hell had broken loose. What actually happened to some of the sisters in real life is more shocking than I want to relate here – but I’ll just say that the revolution was overwhelming in many ways.
I left out some of your post for brevity and because I just wanted to deal with this bit.

Have any of you ever been told to dress for success? You should always dress for the position you want to have? There is a man I work with who does our IT. He used to come to work in sweats. Now he always wears slacks and a button down shirt. He has stated that that ONE change made his work ethic change for the better and people treat him MUCH differently. How you dress has an effect on your life, so to abandon the habit, the sisters were abandoning what had become an integral part of their community. This could inevitably lead but one way…

Also, there is the irony that the habits were chosen at the inception of the order for a REASON. The founders and foundresses[sp? too many s’s?] of various orders chose this type of clothing to separate themselves from society. Why would you go against, in such a direct way, the wishes of the woman who founded your order? “[W]hat dreams may come when we have shuffled off this [nun-ish] coil must give men pause”… Hopefully someone gets that…

FSC
 
… but our convents were also not filled with egotistical manipulators. …
Excuse me, but it doesn’t take a “filled” convent; all it takes are a few aggressive trouble-makers and a silent remainder.
 
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