M
majick275
Guest
I would call that great. If you want a really good example of evil Cathollics forcing their religion on people then let’s go to the conquitadors. My point is that LDS have done the same thing. We both screwed up.
- Status
P
paul_barlow
Guest
thats not the point just as indian children were as you say taken from there parents in the 1950-60. so were aboliginals in australia. orphans taken away from single parents in this country to australia and canada and put in catholic homes. i assume it was thought that these events were serving a good purpose. even if not seen so in modern understanding. however were it became wrong is were force and abuse is involved. we may have been over keen to try to help the indian children we ment it with love. how about your children homes a lot of good but a lot of abuse was done as well. as seen by the millions of £s paid to the children. has my church had to pay out money?. i don’t know so tell me?
M
majick275
Guest
yes they have. Millions in fact. But as you said, that’s not the point. The LDS church uses it’s own scriptures to claim “divine racism”. This isn’t socio-economics. The seed of Cain with their mark, the Lamanites and their loathsome skin of blackness. The claims by spencer Kimball that native american children in these placement programs were becoming WHITER than those on the reservation is whatr I take issue with.
P
paul_barlow
Guest
we !claim devine racism so i assume you have not been to one of our churchs i think if you had you may relise that we are not racist. the mark of cain and cains seed is in the old testament. and if you read the story the mark of cain was a protection GEN4:11-16. ask yourself was this mark a curse. i think you will find it’s not. now lets look at what president kimball said which you have missinterpeted i quotethe lamanites must rise in majesty and power. we must look forward to the day when they will be “white and delightsome”(pure and delightsome 2 nephi 30:6), sharing the freedoms and blessings we enjoy; when they have economic security, culture , refinement and education;when they shall be operating farms and businesses and industries and shall be occupied in the profesions and in teaching; when they shall be organized into wards and stakes of zion, furnishing much of there own leadership; when they shall build and occupy and fill the temples, and serve in them now as the natives are now serving in the hawaiian temple where i found last year the entire service conducted by them and done perfectly. and in the day when their prophet shall come, one shall rise "mighty amoung them being an instrument in the hands of god, with exceeding faith, to work mighty wonders 2 nephi3:24 .
joseph smith in 1831 before the great day of the lord shall come the lamanites shall blossom as a rose.
president wilford woodruff
the lamanites will blossum as the rose on the mountains. i am willing to say here that, though i belive this, when i see the power of the nation (usa) destroying them from the face of the earth, the fulfilment of this prophecy is perhaps harder for me to belive than any revelation of god than i ever read. it looks as though there would not be enough left to receive the gospel; but notwithstanding this dark picture, every word that god has ever said of them will have its fulfilment, and they, by and by will recieve the gospel. it will be a day of gods power amoung them, and a nation will be born in a day. their cheifs will be filled with the power of god and receive the gospel, and they will go forth and build the new jerusalem, and we shall help them. 1873
george q. cannon
the lamanites are our brethren, being of the house of israel and containing a purer strain of israelitish blood than many members of the church. it has been predicted, and the word of the lord will no more fail in this respect than in any other, ect
gospel truth 2:98
those who accept christ and are valiant can become spotless, pure,fair and white because of being cleansed by the redeemer. "o then ye unbelieving, turn ye unto the lord; cry mightily unto the father in the name of jesus, that perhaps ye may be spotless , pure fair and white, having been cleansed by the blood of the lamb, at that great and last day. mormon 9:6
i know you will keep saying we are racist but all i can say is membership of our church is and has been open to all from the start. our church sent missionaries to the indians in the first years of its existance. i served in a tongan ward speaking togan in australia and they were the most spiritual people that i have met. again i have a number of very good friends who are black and they don’t seem to have any problems with our racist church. neither do the saints in south america, asia, africa and the rest of the world. so lets recognize that we are not racist.
yours
paul barlow
J
Jerusha
Guest
Because your church’s doctrine confers honorary whiteness on people of color who accept your “gospel”, and many members of your church brutally stigmatize those people of color who do not.
P
paul_barlow
Guest
are you joking paul and felton are not honorary white they are coloured and happy paul is married to a white sister and if you think we are stigmatizing coulered members you are so wrong. were is your personal evediance of racist attitudes in our church. you keep making these statements now back them up i don’t know were you live but you seem to have a problem with colour. has somebody from our church insulted you as i assume that you are coloured. please trust me you are mistaken if you have this info from ex members ask why are they ex members.
yours
paul barlow
I
InnocentIII
Guest
It’s a good thing all our ancestors just found the Church and embraced it. I would hate to think they would have been alienated by proselytising.
M
majick275
Guest
paul barlow:
Except the BoA says that it IS a curse. LDS prophets and Apostles have called it a curse. The priesthood and the Temple were restricted from black people. In the current LDS scriptures. Spencer Kimball says in the official declaration that the time has come when all can now enjoys all the blessings but he never says anything to refute that the restrictions of the past were in error.
M
majick275
Guest
paul barlow:
*SPENCER W. KIMBALL
General Conference Report, October, 1960.
Improvement Era, December 1960, pp. 922-923.
I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today… The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos, five were darker but equally delightsome The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.
At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl–sixteen–sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents–on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather…These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated.
*
paul barlow:
I don’t know where you think that I was even referring to this much less misinterpreting it. Here is the Spencer Kimball quote that I was referencing:
*SPENCER W. KIMBALL
General Conference Report, October, 1960.
Improvement Era, December 1960, pp. 922-923.
I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today… The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos, five were darker but equally delightsome The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.
At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl–sixteen–sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents–on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather…These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated.
*
paul barlow:
That doesn’t sound racist to you?
M
majick275
Guest
paul barlow:
M
majick275
Guest
and this:
*Elder MARK E. PETERSON
Race Problems – As They Affect The Church
Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level,
Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954.
God has commanded Israel not to intermarry. To go against this commandment of God would be in sin. Those who willfully sin with their eyes open to this wrong will not be surprised to find that they will be separated from the presence of God in the world to come. This is spiritual death…
The reason that one would lose his blessings by marrying a Negro is due to the restriction placed upon them. “No person having the least particle of Negro blood can hold the Priesthood” (Brigham Young). It does not matter if they are one-sixth Negro or one-hundred and sixth, the curse of no Priesthood is the same. If an individual who is entitled to the Priesthood marries a Negro, the Lord has decreed that only spirits who are not eligible for the Priesthood will come to that marriage as children. To intermarry with a Negro is to forfeit a “Nation of Priesthood holders”…
The discussion on civil rights, especially over the last 20 years, has drawn some very sharp lines. It has blinded the thinking of some of our own people, I believe. They have allowed their political affiliations to color their thinking to some extent, and then, of course, they have been persuaded by some of the arguments that have been put forth…We who teach in the Church certainly must have our feet on the ground and not to be led astray by the philosophies of men on this subject…
I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the Negro is after. He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat. He isn’t just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people. It isn’t that he just desires to go to the same theater as the white people. From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the Negro seeks absorption with the white race. He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage. That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for Negroes that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, “First we pity, then endure, then embrace”…
Now let’s talk about segregation again for a few moments. Was segregation a wrong principle? When the Lord chose the nations to which the spirits were to come, determining that some would be Japanese and some would be Chinese and some Negroes and some Americans, He engaged in an act of segregation…
When he told Enoch not preach the gospel to the descendants of Cain who were black, the Lord engaged in segregation. When He cursed the descendants of Cain as to the Priesthood, He engaged in segregation…
Who placed the Negroes originally in darkest Africa? Was it some man, or was it God? And when He placed them there, He segregated them…
The Lord segregated the people both as to blood and place of residence. At least in the cases of the Lamanites and the Negro we have the definite word of the Lord Himself that he placed a dark skin upon them as a curse – as a punishment and as a sign to all others. He forbade intermarriage with them under threat of extension of the curse. And He certainly segregated the descendants of Cain when He cursed the Negro as to the Priesthood, and drew an absolute line. You may even say He dropped an Iron curtain there…
Now we are generous with the Negro. We are willing that the Negro have the highest education. I would be willing to let every Negro drive a Cadillac if they could afford it. I would be willing that they have all the advantages they can get out of life in the world. But let them enjoy these things among themselves. I think the Lord segregated the Negro and who is man to change that segregation? It reminds me of the scripture on marriage, “what God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.” Only here we have the reverse of the thing – what God hath separated, let not man bring together again."
Think of the Negro, cursed as to the priesthood… This Negro, who, in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending him to the earth in their lineage of Cain with a black skin, and possibly being born in darkest Africa–if that Negro is willing when he hears the gospel to accept it, he may have many of the blessings of the gospel. In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glor*
*Elder MARK E. PETERSON
Race Problems – As They Affect The Church
Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level,
Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954.
God has commanded Israel not to intermarry. To go against this commandment of God would be in sin. Those who willfully sin with their eyes open to this wrong will not be surprised to find that they will be separated from the presence of God in the world to come. This is spiritual death…
The reason that one would lose his blessings by marrying a Negro is due to the restriction placed upon them. “No person having the least particle of Negro blood can hold the Priesthood” (Brigham Young). It does not matter if they are one-sixth Negro or one-hundred and sixth, the curse of no Priesthood is the same. If an individual who is entitled to the Priesthood marries a Negro, the Lord has decreed that only spirits who are not eligible for the Priesthood will come to that marriage as children. To intermarry with a Negro is to forfeit a “Nation of Priesthood holders”…
The discussion on civil rights, especially over the last 20 years, has drawn some very sharp lines. It has blinded the thinking of some of our own people, I believe. They have allowed their political affiliations to color their thinking to some extent, and then, of course, they have been persuaded by some of the arguments that have been put forth…We who teach in the Church certainly must have our feet on the ground and not to be led astray by the philosophies of men on this subject…
I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the Negro is after. He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat. He isn’t just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people. It isn’t that he just desires to go to the same theater as the white people. From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the Negro seeks absorption with the white race. He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage. That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for Negroes that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, “First we pity, then endure, then embrace”…
Now let’s talk about segregation again for a few moments. Was segregation a wrong principle? When the Lord chose the nations to which the spirits were to come, determining that some would be Japanese and some would be Chinese and some Negroes and some Americans, He engaged in an act of segregation…
When he told Enoch not preach the gospel to the descendants of Cain who were black, the Lord engaged in segregation. When He cursed the descendants of Cain as to the Priesthood, He engaged in segregation…
Who placed the Negroes originally in darkest Africa? Was it some man, or was it God? And when He placed them there, He segregated them…
The Lord segregated the people both as to blood and place of residence. At least in the cases of the Lamanites and the Negro we have the definite word of the Lord Himself that he placed a dark skin upon them as a curse – as a punishment and as a sign to all others. He forbade intermarriage with them under threat of extension of the curse. And He certainly segregated the descendants of Cain when He cursed the Negro as to the Priesthood, and drew an absolute line. You may even say He dropped an Iron curtain there…
Now we are generous with the Negro. We are willing that the Negro have the highest education. I would be willing to let every Negro drive a Cadillac if they could afford it. I would be willing that they have all the advantages they can get out of life in the world. But let them enjoy these things among themselves. I think the Lord segregated the Negro and who is man to change that segregation? It reminds me of the scripture on marriage, “what God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.” Only here we have the reverse of the thing – what God hath separated, let not man bring together again."
Think of the Negro, cursed as to the priesthood… This Negro, who, in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending him to the earth in their lineage of Cain with a black skin, and possibly being born in darkest Africa–if that Negro is willing when he hears the gospel to accept it, he may have many of the blessings of the gospel. In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glor*
M
majick275
Guest
and this:
*JOSPEH FIELDING SMITH
Doctrines of Salvation, pp. 65-66.
There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits.
pg. 61.
There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less.
Juvenile Instructor, vol. 26, p. 635
It is very clear that the mark which was set upon the descendants of Cain was a skin of blackness…It has been noticed in our day that men who have lost the spirit of the Lord, and from whom His blessings have been withdrawn, have turned dark to such an extent as to excite the comments of all who have known them. *
I really have a hard time with this:
*BRIGHAM YOUNG
Journal of Discourses
Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race? If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.
Vol. 7, pg. 290-291
Cain slew his brother. . . and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin.
You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race–that they should be the “servant of servants;” and they will be, until that curse is removed. *
I still think that this one is the most offensive:
“Racial degeneration, resulting in differences in appearance and spiritual aptitude, has arisen since the fall. We know the circumstances under which the posterity of Cain (and later of Ham) were born with the characteristics of the black race. (Moses 5:16-41; 7:8,12,22; Abra. 1:20-27.) The Book of Mormon explains why the Lamanites received dark skins and a degenerate status. (2 Ne. 5:21-23.) If we had a full and true history of all races and nations, we would know the origins of all their distinctive characteristics. In the absence of such detailed information, however, we know only the general principle that all these changes from the physical and spiritual perfections of our common parents have been brought about by departure from the gospel truths. (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 148-151; vol. 3, pp. 313-326.)” (Mormon Doctrine 1999 printing, p. 616)
*JOSPEH FIELDING SMITH
Doctrines of Salvation, pp. 65-66.
There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits.
pg. 61.
There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less.
Juvenile Instructor, vol. 26, p. 635
It is very clear that the mark which was set upon the descendants of Cain was a skin of blackness…It has been noticed in our day that men who have lost the spirit of the Lord, and from whom His blessings have been withdrawn, have turned dark to such an extent as to excite the comments of all who have known them. *
I really have a hard time with this:
*BRIGHAM YOUNG
Journal of Discourses
Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race? If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.
Vol. 7, pg. 290-291
Cain slew his brother. . . and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin.
You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race–that they should be the “servant of servants;” and they will be, until that curse is removed. *
I still think that this one is the most offensive:
“Racial degeneration, resulting in differences in appearance and spiritual aptitude, has arisen since the fall. We know the circumstances under which the posterity of Cain (and later of Ham) were born with the characteristics of the black race. (Moses 5:16-41; 7:8,12,22; Abra. 1:20-27.) The Book of Mormon explains why the Lamanites received dark skins and a degenerate status. (2 Ne. 5:21-23.) If we had a full and true history of all races and nations, we would know the origins of all their distinctive characteristics. In the absence of such detailed information, however, we know only the general principle that all these changes from the physical and spiritual perfections of our common parents have been brought about by departure from the gospel truths. (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 148-151; vol. 3, pp. 313-326.)” (Mormon Doctrine 1999 printing, p. 616)
M
majick275
Guest
So basically LDS doctrine states that everyone not born white was “less valiant” in the pre-existence. Non-whites are descended from loathsome degenerates BUT if they become LDS then all is well and in the afterlife they will be white for all eternity. But they’re not racist. Really. 
J
Jerusha
Guest
So well put!!
P
paul_barlow
Guest
and so wrong. i will try just once more we are all in a filthy state unless we except the atonement. now lets seperate fact from fiction the indians are our brothers and we do not hate them or consider them less. i will again repeat there is no racism in our church racism is condemed. the mark of cain is scripture and if you read a bit more deeply you will find that the church has never supported slaverly ect. we have always welcomed members of diffrent races our mission is to go to all the world never has it been said just to whites. coloured people could be members but not priesthood holders. the injunction was put in place in the old testament and according to us was lifted in the 1970s the old testament issues injunctions on lots of things which the new testament does not mention but are still valid. if you read again the views of our prophets in an open minded way you may discover that i am right. also remember people have had diffrent views in the past to now and one of the major mistakes is to look at historical events with our modern eyes. i know you are looking at this from you own view point. you are also using personal writings as our churches view both the books you state are not scripture. even so i will except that you will continue to argue this point over and over and i can only hope that you can discover that our church teaches love not hatred.So well put!!
yours
paul barlow
C
catsrus
Guest
regarding these 3 declaratives;
Why
Where
And why?
P
PaulDupre
Guest
paul barlow:
Please give us chapter and verse from the Old Testament where we can read about the injunction denying the priesthood to “coloured people”.
BTW, please use capital letters, punctuation and paragraphs.
Thanks,
Paul
Paul,
Please give us chapter and verse from the Old Testament where we can read about the injunction denying the priesthood to “coloured people”.
BTW, please use capital letters, punctuation and paragraphs.
Thanks,
Paul
P
paul_barlow
Guest
i think and i am probably wrong its to do with cane being the father of the people of Canaan. Cane had made a deal with the devil ect. The injunctions are there but this not the point read my last post. this is now getting repedative.
P
paul_barlow
Guest
Please read my last post.
Sorry about the grammer I am dyslexic and I don’t fancy Spending Hours checking my grammer. please except my lack of language skills.
This thread was on racism in my church now. Not in the past as i have said I joined in 1989 and i have never found any.
M
majick275
Guest
I can appreciate that and agree that things are different now. BUT the fact that past racist practices have never been repudiated and that the current BoM and BoA both still speak in such offensive terms about skin color is , to me at least, a significant problem.
- Status