Ascent of Mt. Carmel and Dark Night

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I have been reading The Ascent of Mount Carmel. At the end of chapter 6, there is a footnote stating that “this projected teaching about beginners is actually found in The Dark Night”.

My question is, for anyone with experience with his writings, is as follows:

As a spiritual beginner, would I be better off reading The Dark Night before reading The Ascent, or afterwards?
 
gferrer said:
I have been reading The Ascent of Mount Carmel. At the end of chapter 6, there is a footnote stating that “this projected teaching about beginners is actually found in The Dark Night”.

My question is, for anyone with experience with his writings, is as follows:

As a spiritual beginner, would I be better off reading The Dark Night before reading The Ascent, or afterwards?
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The Ascent deals with the active night . . . the things we do to detach and purge ourselves from selfish clingings. The Dark Night tells the same story but from the perspective of the passive night . . . what God does to achieve this same effect.

While the Ascent and Dark Night work in tandem, the short answer is that the Ascent should probably be read first. Until the soul is brought to the way of contemplative prayer (by St. John’s definition the non-beginner), the Dark Night won’t make much sense.

Hope this helps 🙂
Dave
 
gferrer said:
I have been reading The Ascent of Mount Carmel. At the end of chapter 6, there is a footnote stating that “this projected teaching about beginners is actually found in The Dark Night”.

My question is, for anyone with experience with his writings, is as follows:

As a spiritual beginner, would I be better off reading The Dark Night before reading The Ascent, or afterwards?
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As a spiritual beginner, I would suggest reading Fr. Thomas Dubay’s A Fire Within, before going to the classical works. It would be a great warm-up to get you ready to go deeper into prayer.
ignatius.com/ViewProduct.aspx?UserID=31049650&SessionID=FSOn9r80TBPbgwJfVhhq&SID=1&Product_ID=392&Category_ID=22&
 
Just adding my +2 to Grace and DBT about Fire Within. It has been the most helpful book I’ve read so far on contemplative prayer.
 
DBT said:
The Ascent deals with the active night . . . the things we do to detach and purge ourselves from selfish clingings. The Dark Night tells the same story but from the perspective of the passive night . . . what God does to achieve this same effect.

While the Ascent and Dark Night work in tandem, the short answer is that the Ascent should probably be read first. Until the soul is brought to the way of contemplative prayer (by St. John’s definition the non-beginner), the Dark Night won’t make much sense.

Hope this helps 🙂
Dave
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Thank you very much for all of the suggestions. It has been helpful to me. I plan to continue reading Ascent of Mt. Carmel for now, and I will also look into Fr. Dubay’s book. I have several of his other books (Prayer Primer, Evidential Power of Beauty) and I have enjoyed his writing.
 
gferrer said:
Thank you very much for all of the suggestions. It has been helpful to me. I plan to continue reading Ascent of Mt. Carmel for now, and I will also look into Fr. Dubay’s book. I have several of his other books (Prayer Primer, Evidential Power of Beauty) and I have enjoyed his writing.
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Another book you might want to consider somewhere along the line is the translation by Fr. John Venard, OCD of St. John’s Spiritual Canticle. Unlike the Ascent and Dark Night which speak of the spiritual journey at it’s “crisis points” (i.e. the nights), the Spiritual Canticle tells the whole story . . . from the beginning of our walk to final union with God here on earth. If I had to pick just one of St. John’s works, Spiritual Canticle would be it.

What Fr. Venard does with this translation that is unique is the following:
  • He edits out the redundancies in St. John’s writing highlighting just the key points. Granted, this is a risky proposition but I think he pulled it off wonderfully. He did this for the specific purpose of making St. John more readable for those just starting out . . . his version is a full 1/3 shorter than other translations. After the reader becomes comfortable with St. John, Father recomends the reader move on to the full translations by Kavanaugh or Peers.
  • The layout of his translation is as follows: St. John’s commentary on the left page . . . Father’s “notes” on the right hand page. I’ve found no better book than this to explain - in laymen terms - those concepts of St. John that can be difficult . . . or even stumbling blocks.
Father also provides a translation of Living Flame which is absolutely wonderful . . . mostly because of his “notes.” However, IMO, his treatment of Ascent/Dark Night is lacking because for some reason he choose not to add his commentary and explanations.

Good luck on your reading and I hope this helps some!
Dave:)

PS. Father’s books are out of print but you can find them online through used book sellers.
 
I found that reading Fr Dubay’s book in conjunction with St. Teresa of Avila’s “Interior Castle,” very helpful.

St. John of the Cross was much easier for me to read than St. Teresa and Fr Dubay was a good source in checking my understanding on contemplation, as St. John explains it. Of course my best source was the spiritual assistants of my OCDS group.

Either way, there is no substitute for experience in contemplative
prayer. Without contemplative prayer, much of what St John and St Teresa wrote will be meaningless.

A favorite book that I just finished re-reading for the 2nd time is, New Seeds of Contemplation, by Fr. Thomas Merton.

I know I’m getting more out of it this 2nd time around, because I have experience in contemplative prayer, where as before, I wasn’t just returning to the faith, when I read it.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
… there is no substitute for experience in contemplative prayer. Without contemplative prayer, much of what St John and St Teresa wrote will be meaningless.

Jim
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Nothing can substitute true experiences. Without a personal taste of contemplative prayer, even “The Fire Within”, a good warm up with good explanation of contemplation, could be dry and hard to understand. With personal experience, all falls into right place and makes sense.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Either way, there is no substitute for experience in contemplativeprayer. Without contemplative prayer, much of what St John and St Teresa wrote will be meaningless.
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And there’s the rub. 👍 And, IMO, picking up the wrong book at the “wrong” time in our life might actually do more harm than good.

Note to all . . .

I was thinking about this over lunch so I thought I’d post it. Hopefully it will shed light on where all of St. John’s books “fit” into the overall scheme of things.

As I mentioned earlier, my personal preference for those just starting out is Spiritual Canticle because it tells the whole story. It breaks our spiritual life into 3 very broad stages – which, for most of us – represents the work of a lifetime:
  • The purgative way (beginners)
  • The illuminative way (“proficients” in St. John’s terms - aka contemplatives)
  • The unitive way (the perfect)
The “nights” are the crisis points that mark our transition from one stage to another . . . the theology behind this is perhaps what St. John is most known for. The night of sense marks the passage from the purgative to illuminative way while the night of spirit leads the soul from the illuminative to the unitive way.

To complicate things a bit these nights have two parts: the active (what we do) and the passive (what God does in us in contemplation). And here’s how this ties back to St. John’s other main works so we can see where the nights are addressed:

Night of sense
  • Active night - Book 1 of the Ascent
  • Passive night - Book 1 of the Dark Night
Night of spirit
  • Active night - Books 2&3 of the Ascent
  • Passive night - Book 2 of the Dark Night
The Living Flame of Love, St. John’s other major work, is basically a treatise on the unitive way.

My point in going through all of this is that when people think of St. John, the first thought is often to start reading the Dark Night because it’s probably his most well known work. For most of us, though, that’s probably not the best choice for the very reason I quoted JimROCDS at the beginning of this very long winded post. 🙂

Spiritual Canticle gives a birds eye view of the entire journey (much like St. Teresa’s Interior Castle) while the Ascent, Dark Night and Living Flame go into greater detail about specific points along the way.

And like JimR and Inlight said, there’s no substitute for experience in contemplation in trying to understand all of this.

Dave.
 
DBT said:
As I mentioned earlier, my personal preference for those just starting out is Spiritual Canticle because it tells the whole story. It breaks our spiritual life into 3 very broad stages – which, for most of us – represents the work of a lifetime:
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That’s really interesting. As it happens, I had been more interested in Ascent and Dark Night because of the poetry. Many years ago (before we were married), my wife gave me an edition of St. John’s poetry (including the original Spanish, a language I speak). I found Noche Oscura a bit more accessible than Cantico Espirtual, so I paid no further attention to the latter for some time. The book itself I also ignored for some years.

In more recent times, my wife and I have studied the Theology of the Body a great deal. Our pastor assigned me to give a talk on the aspect of TOB relating to the resurrection of the body. In preparing the talk, I got stuck at one point and pulled out the poetry, because I had heard that St. John was a big influence on JPII in this context. Because it was a favorite from years ago, I read Noche Oscura.

The second half of the poem, in particular, blew me away, especially with the context of eight years of marriage. I felt like I finally had a clue as to what JPII was getting at in that part of TOB, thanks to the last four verses. This was a tremendous help in finishing the talk.

So at this point I very much wanted to learn more about St. John’s writings and teachings. I bought the Kavenough Complete Works, and started with Ascent, since it was based on Noche Oscura. It did not even remotely occur to me to start with Cantico Espiritual.

I enjoyed Book I of Ascent very much, about the active night of the senses. What he says about the appetites I find very logical and persuasive. I feel far too weak to follow through completely with his ideas, although the concept of choosing the most difficult or least pleasant task in preference to other tasks is where I am striving to work at the moment. I related to that idea most easily.

The concept of * only * doing things for the greater love of God is tougher for me, especially every time I eat a chocolate bar. 😉 But I see how it is a logical step in increasing holiness.

I placed an Amazon order tonight for the previously recommended Dubay book A Fire Within. I think I will also try to spend some time meditating on the poem Cantico Espiritual, in preparation for reading the commentary part.
  • The purgative way (beginners)
  • The illuminative way (“proficients” in St. John’s terms - aka contemplatives)
  • The unitive way (the perfect)
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The “nights” are the crisis points that mark our transition from one stage to another . . . the theology behind this is perhaps what St. John is most known for. The night of sense marks the passage from the purgative to illuminative way while the night of spirit leads the soul from the illuminative to the unitive way.
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Thanks for that explanation. That really helps contextualize things.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
I found that reading Fr Dubay’s book in conjunction with St. Teresa of Avila’s “Interior Castle,” very helpful.

St. John of the Cross was much easier for me to read than St. Teresa and Fr Dubay was a good source in checking my understanding on contemplation, as St. John explains it. Of course my best source was the spiritual assistants of my OCDS group.

Either way, there is no substitute for experience in contemplative
prayer. Without contemplative prayer, much of what St John and St Teresa wrote will be meaningless.

A favorite book that I just finished re-reading for the 2nd time is, New Seeds of Contemplation, by Fr. Thomas Merton.

I know I’m getting more out of it this 2nd time around, because I have experience in contemplative prayer, where as before, I wasn’t just returning to the faith, when I read it.

Jim
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I get confused by the term “contemplative prayer”. I understand there’s an acquired form, which, I would think, must be different from the mystical experiences initiated and infused by God but which are also called contemplative prayer, right? Can the latter form be cultivated or obtained by ones’ own efforts in any way? How do they differ or how are they alike?
 
fhansen said:
I get confused by the term “contemplative prayer”. I understand there’s an acquired form, which, I would think, must be different from the mystical experiences initiated and infused by God but which are also called contemplative prayer, right? Can the latter form be cultivated or obtained by ones’ own efforts in any way? How do they differ or how are they alike?
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Contemplative prayer, is the attentive turning of our hearts toward God, who dwells within, and opening ourselves up to the gift of contemplation.

Contemplative prayer uses few words, does not expect or desire mystical experiences or consolations, but desires only to love God, because He is God. Also, contemplative prayer does not create an image of God, but rather, in the darkness of faith, allows God to reveal Himself, as He is.

Acquired contemplation, comes from God, it is His gift to us. However, through contemplative prayer we make ourselves available to receive this gift.

Jim
 
gferrer said:
I enjoyed Book I of Ascent very much, about the active night of the senses. What he says about the appetites I find very logical and persuasive.
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Hi gferrer -
By all means, if you’re drawing profit from any of these writings then stick with it 🙂

I really like your point about St. John’s poetry . . . that, for me, is what speaks most clearly to my heart. I find it most useful to read it slowly and prayerfully . . . much like one would do lectio. St. John’s commentary, on the other hand, I find more useful as spiritual reading, learning and understanding.

One last comment about St. John. If your interest right now is in the night of sense then you’ll likely draw profit from Book 1 of the Ascent, Book 1 of Dark Night and roughly the first third of Spiritual Canticle since each addresses this night in differing ways.

Blessings to you!
Dave 🙂
 
fhansen said:
I understand there’s an acquired form, which, I would think, must be different from the mystical experiences initiated and infused by God but which are also called contemplative prayer, right? Can the latter form be cultivated or obtained by ones’ own efforts in any way? How do they differ or how are they alike?
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Adding to what JimR said . . .

Terminology is what makes this more difficult than it ought to be. Acquired contemplation also goes by the name of active recollection. Think of it as praying without ceasing, the continual turning of our minds and hearts to God whenever we notice our attention has strayed . . . in all our thoughts, words and actions . . . in everything we do, say or think.

Perhaps the best example of acquired contemplation/active recollection I can think of is the way of Brother Lawrence in “The Practice of the Presence of God.” Acquired contemplation is within our means to initiate and practice, however as Jim says, it is fed and sustained by God’s grace.

Infused contemplation, on the other hand, is entirely God’s gift. Think of it a profound inner rest as the faculties are slowly suspended by God . . . almost as if they are put to sleep. In this prayer there are no words, mental images, thoughts or ideas . . . just a simple gaze of love.

One thing I’ve always liked about Brother Lawrence is that the more habitually one practices acquired contemplation, the more regularly God will bring infused contemplation to the soul. I think that’s very true.

Dave. 🙂
 
DBT said:
Adding to what JimR said . . .

One thing I’ve always liked about Brother Lawrence is that the more habitually one practices acquired contemplation, the more regularly God will bring infused contemplation to the soul. I think that’s very true.

Dave. 🙂
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Thank you, this is what I’m asking about. When reading St Teresa of Avila, it would seem that her experiences were strictly non-producible be her own efforts and often or always unpredictable. And they were varied, including locutions, visions, and ecstasies which went far beyond just rest or peace. The word “prayer” sounds a bit out of place as a description for these states and yet, as you and Jim say, we can make ourselves available at least. I think I understand or am I confusing the word prayer with these experiences?
 
fhansen said:
Thank you, this is what I’m asking about. When reading St Teresa of Avila, it would seem that her experiences were strictly non-producible be her own efforts and often or always unpredictable. And they were varied, including locutions, visions, and ecstasies which went far beyond just rest or peace. The word “prayer” sounds a bit out of place as a description for these states and yet, as you and Jim say, we can make ourselves available at least. I think I understand or am I confusing the word prayer with these experiences?
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Hi fhansen - I think you’ve got it just fine 🙂

Certainly St. Teresa strongly believed in praying without ceasing . . . in fact, one of her strongest influences was Franscisco de Osuna who wrote a very popular book at the time on active recollection (Third Spiritual Alphabet). Much of what St. Teresa wrote was based on his book, it’s just that her focus and interest was more on the infused side of things. Everything she addressed in the 4th mansion and beyond in Interior Castle is a different slant on this . . . some of it falls into what is sometimes called “ordinary” contemplation while other parts are considered “extraordinary.”

This might crash and burn 🙂 but I thought I’d use the analogy of natural sleep to try and help explain what St. Teresa is saying in the 4th and 5th mansions . . . since there is a certain similarity, at least in my mind.

The Prayer of Recollection (4th mansion) is “like” dozing off when we fall asleep. The Prayer of Quiet (4th mansion) is “like” a light, fitful sleep . . . mental distractions being what prevents a deepening of the prayer. The Prayer of Union (5th mansion) is “like” a deep, sound sleep . . . the entire soul being captivated by God in a loving embrace.

I use this analogy because the Prayers of Recollection, Quiet and Union “flow” together much like natural sleep does . . . one is simply a “deepening” of the other. And all of this falls under the “ordinary” way of contemplation . . . open to all souls who yearn to be united with God in this way.

Ecstasies, raptures, flights of spirit, transports and so on (6th dwelling) are also types of infused prayer . . . but they are considered “extraordinary” graces. The main difference from these prayers and, say, the Prayer of Union, is that the extraordinary ways come upon the soul more suddenly and unexpectedly (often while in public), last longer, and are “felt” more exteriorly.

St. Teresa describes the physical effects of ecstasy/rapture as the body is left as though dead - unable to move, breathing slows, temperature cools - for the duration of this prayer. Flights of spirit/transport is the physical sensation that the soul has left the body or is “moving” at a rapid speed . . . paraphrasing St. Teresa, like a bullet leaving a gun.

Visions, locutions and revelations are also “extraordinary” graces. They can occur in any of the “states” of infused prayer discussed, ordinary or extraordinary.

All these extraordinary graces are actually spiritual imperfections for the simple reason they are felt so exteriorly (ecstasy etc) and rely on our senses to interpret meaning (visions etc). The Prayer of Union, in comparison, is entirely spiritual. It is interesting to note that St. Teresa stresses that when the soul is brought to the transforming union (perfection here on earth) these phenomena cease, however the “ordinary” infused prayer remains.

Hope this helps . . .
Dave:)
 
My goodness, Dave, how you have grown! We have crossed paths for many months now in these Carmelite threads, but I see that you are highly proficient in explaining these difficult matters with clarity and wisdom. Not that you weren’t doing this previously, but it gives me an especial delight to watch you flower. Hope I am not embarrassing you, but I believe you would give the glory to God, anyway. 👍

Carole
 
DBT said:
Hi fhansen - I think you’ve got it just fine 🙂

Certainly St. Teresa strongly believed in praying without ceasing . . . in fact, one of her strongest influences was Franscisco de Osuna who wrote a very popular book at the time on active recollection (Third Spiritual Alphabet). Much of what St. Teresa wrote was based on his book, it’s just that her focus and interest was more on the infused side of things. Everything she addressed in the 4th mansion and beyond in Interior Castle is a different slant on this . . . some of it falls into what is sometimes called “ordinary” contemplation while other parts are considered “extraordinary.”

This might crash and burn 🙂 but I thought I’d use the analogy of natural sleep to try and help explain what St. Teresa is saying in the 4th and 5th mansions . . . since there is a certain similarity, at least in my mind.

The Prayer of Recollection (4th mansion) is “like” dozing off when we fall asleep. The Prayer of Quiet (4th mansion) is “like” a light, fitful sleep . . . mental distractions being what prevents a deepening of the prayer. The Prayer of Union (5th mansion) is “like” a deep, sound sleep . . . the entire soul being captivated by God in a loving embrace.

I use this analogy because the Prayers of Recollection, Quiet and Union “flow” together much like natural sleep does . . . one is simply a “deepening” of the other. And all of this falls under the “ordinary” way of contemplation . . . open to all souls who yearn to be united with God in this way.

Ecstasies, raptures, flights of spirit, transports and so on (6th dwelling) are also types of infused prayer . . . but they are considered “extraordinary” graces. The main difference from these prayers and, say, the Prayer of Union, is that the extraordinary ways come upon the soul more suddenly and unexpectedly (often while in public), last longer, and are “felt” more exteriorly.

St. Teresa describes the physical effects of ecstasy/rapture as the body is left as though dead - unable to move, breathing slows, temperature cools - for the duration of this prayer. Flights of spirit/transport is the physical sensation that the soul has left the body or is “moving” at a rapid speed . . . paraphrasing St. Teresa, like a bullet leaving a gun.

Visions, locutions and revelations are also “extraordinary” graces. They can occur in any of the “states” of infused prayer discussed, ordinary or extraordinary.

All these extraordinary graces are actually spiritual imperfections for the simple reason they are felt so exteriorly (ecstasy etc) and rely on our senses to interpret meaning (visions etc). The Prayer of Union, in comparison, is entirely spiritual. It is interesting to note that St. Teresa stresses that when the soul is brought to the transforming union (perfection here on earth) these phenomena cease, however the “ordinary” infused prayer remains.

Hope this helps . . .
Dave:)
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That’s quite interesting. Thank you.
 
Dave I appreciate your replies, they are very helpful for me. Especially that outline of which writings go with which stage in the spiritual life.

I don’t know exactly what stage I’m in right now-seems like the dark night of sense. But I’ve learned not to be anxious about it and just let God do the work He wants to accomplish in me.

I’ve found vocal prayer so dry and unproductive that I’ve started going to daily Mass and Adoration since praying at home is that much more dry. Every few weeks or so I’ll have a few hours when I feel a strong sense of God’s presence and love. I am so weak, and I am grateful He sends me those little sips of water in the desert.
 
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