Ascetic and Mystical Theology - Problems in Prayer Perspective

[Lifeisawesome]

Wonder if any of you brilliant folks have pondered the idea that most modern error regarding prayer can be traced back to the desire to bypass the ascetic before entering into or having an expectation of the mystical?

 

[DBT]

Wonder if any of you brilliant folks have pondered the idea that most modern error regarding prayer can be traced back to the desire to bypass the ascetic before entering into or having an expectation of the mystical?

Ah, no doubt you’re refering to that which must not be mentioned on these forums

 

[Lifeisawesome]

Well - maybe - but I don’t need to talk about the specifically banned heresy. I am just asking in a more general sense.

 

[DBT]

Well it seems to me the Saints are pretty clear that mystical experiences aren’t worth a hill of beans if they don’t lead to a growth in virtue . . . “by their fruits you will know them.”

The practice of virtue is heavily rooted in asceticism (self denial in all ways) and this is the goal - in a manner of speaking - of all our “active” efforts. Should God by willing to work “passively” in the soul through infused contemplation; no doubt that individual will be given light as to all the little ways in which he is failing in virtue and the grace to do better. This is how the active (ascetical) and passive (mystical) work together. Thus the Saints teach that mysticism without asceticism is false . . . a product of either our imagination or the devil. Growth in virtue is the only true test to discern the hand of God.

Dave.

 

[Lifeisawesome]

Dave,

Very well said and your comments confirm my perspective - so, you must be right.

Just curious - what is the source of your theological training?

 

[DBT]

Just curious - what is the source of your theological training?

I’m a Secular Carmelite . . . OCDS.

Dave.

 

[Lifeisawesome]

Ah - fantastic. I discerned but did not go that route. However, Carmelite spiriutality dominates my thinking about the spiritual life. Thanks for all you do here on the forums. Is there a single work you would recommend that discusses the problem of separating or attempting to bypass the ascetical while still trying to achieve or expecting to experience the mystical?

 

[beckycmarie]

The practice of virtue is heavily rooted in asceticism (self denial in all ways) and this is the goal - in a manner of speaking - of all our “active” efforts. Should God by willing to work “passively” in the soul through infused contemplation; no doubt that individual will be given light as to all the little ways in which he is failing in virtue and the grace to do better. This is how the active (ascetical) and passive (mystical) work together. Thus the Saints teach that mysticism without asceticism is false . . . a product of either our imagination or the devil. Growth in virtue is the only true test to discern the hand of God.

I think some people (myself included ) may try to go about all this backwards - seeking contemplation before making an effort at doing the basics - precepts of the Church, avoiding mortal sin and making a real effort at avoiding venial sin, and daily prayer.

Four years ago, I tried to read The Interior Castle while in mortal sin and going to Mass sporadically and praying, or even thinking about God maybe once a week. I may as well have been reading Russian! It’s clear now that I didn’t get it because I wasn’t even in the castle yet. . . I was nowhere near it.

 

[Lifeisawesome]

Becky - your comments and transparency are very insightful and helpful. They illustrate the challenges that drive many into error regarding prayer and advancing in the spiritual life. Funny thing - it happened with the Church at Corinth as well. What is fascinating is that God sometimes does give his gifts to us though we have not followed him as we should. His grace is overwhelming. I have had profound spiritual encounters with God while in places of personal darkness and sin. However, I know well enough now that this is not to be expected - not normative… Too many words. Thanks for all you do for Him and His people.

 

[DBT]

I think some people (myself included ) may try to go about all this backwards - seeking contemplation before making an effort at doing the basics

Lifeisawesome:

What is fascinating is that God sometimes does give his gifts to us though we have not followed him as we should

What facinates me is that there really isn’t a “normal” way all this happens. When we read someone like St. Teresa we might think there is some sort of linear progression through her mansions: mansion 1 then mansion 2 then mansion 3 then !finally! mansion 4 and the beginnings of infused prayer. Or in St. John’s terms the active night of sense leads to the passive night of sense followed by the active night of spirit then passive night of spirit. Sometimes it happens like that . . . sometimes it doesn’t. As St. Teresa herself says we move all around the rooms . . . forwards and backward, up and down, in and out.

In my own case it most assuredely wasn’t linear. Again, as St. Teresa says, sometimes He plucks the greatest sinners among us to bestow His favors for reasons only He knows. What I do know, however, is that if He starts someone off in this way before they’re “ready” by any traditional definition He will lead them backwards, as you say, to fill in any missing blanks. This is how we know it’s authentic.

So “sticking to the basics” is always a good plan . . . humility, humility, humility! FECGM said something interesting along these lines on another thread . . . that we should always stay rooted in the humanity of Christ. And where does St. Teresa speak most forcefully on this? In the 5th and 6th dwelling for souls recieveing the “pure contemplation” of the Prayer of Union and/or any extraordinary favors like visions, locutions or revelations. We can NEVER forget the basics no matter how exaulted our prayer might be

Dave.

 

[DBT]

Is there a single work you would recommend that discusses the problem of separating or attempting to bypass the ascetical while still trying to achieve or expecting to experience the mystical?

In light of your question, we can probably think of St. John’s “Ascent of Mount Carmel” and “The Dark Night” as a single work. The Ascent treats the active night of sense and spirit while the Dark Night treats the passive nights for both. Both works go hand in hand.

Dave.

 

[Lifeisawesome]

Dave - I agree with your thoughts. When I use “normative” my purpose is to describe theological versus experiential categories. For example, baptism is the normative means of justification - however, the thief on the cross was an exception - baptism of desire. Regardless - is there a Centering Prayer free site that you are aware of that only supports the true and historically rooted theological perspective that you/devout and properly catechised Carmelites share?

 

[DBT]

Regardless - is there a Centering Prayer free site that you are aware of that only supports the true and historically rooted theological perspective that you/devout and properly catechised Carmelites share?

If JimROCDS is around he can probably answer that better than I can. FYI - I’m not aware of any OCDS community that uses Centering Prayer texts as part of formation . . . at least not in the Oklahoma Province which covers a big part of the United States.

That having been said, I don’t have a problem with anything by Fr. Keating . . . in fact his treatment of thoughts in “Open Hearts Open Mind” is quite helpful. While we might not think of it this way, what he says corresponds to the spiritual asceticism of Book 2 of St. John’s “Ascent.” Precious little talk about growth in virtue and denial of sense, though. All this is quite controverisal, however, so I probably shouldn’t say more.

Dave.

 

[Joysong]

Regardless - is there a Centering Prayer free site that you are aware of that only supports the true and historically rooted theological perspective that you/devout and properly catechised Carmelites share?

I understand your wording to mean “centering-prayer-free,” a site that speaks about contemplation with proper theology and is not intermingled with centering prayer. Yes?

I’ve been mostly lurking with respect to this thread, but aside from the classics from Sts. Teresa and John of the Cross who are specifically gifted by the Church to “Doctor” us, I don’t know of any websites that discuss prayer in all its manifestations.

May I encourage you to trust very much in God who has wonderful ways of teaching the soul through these Masters, and sometimes without their help. He also knows how to arrange the circumstances and bring those special souls into our life who are well acquainted with these gifts and terminology. You will not fail to find them when the time is ripe for learning. I’m remembering the special chance meeting of St. Teresa with St. Peter of Alcantara who understood her immediately when she described her interior life to him.

Unless a person receives a similar experience from God, he will not readily understand the words he hears or reads. St. Teresa, whether by design or by sheer coincidence, has “hidden these things from the wise and clever” but a humble person with experience will understand and find the way.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

Here are St. John of the Cross (Mystical Doctor of the Church)'s free online books:

Ascent of Mount Carmel: ccel.org/ccel/john_cross/ascent.ii.vii.html
Dark Night of the Soul: ccel.org/ccel/john_cross/dark_night.html
Spiritual Canticle: karmel.at/ics/john/cn.html
The Living Flame of Love: karmel.at/ics/john/fl.html

Here are St. Teresa of Avila (Doctor of the Church, Founder of the Discalced Carmelites and under the spiritual direction of St. John of the Cross)'s free online works:

The Life of St. Teresa of Avila: catholicfirst.com/TheFaith/CatholicClassics/StTeresa/life/teresaofavila.cfm
The Way of Perfection catholicfirst.com/TheFaith/CatholicClassics/StTeresa/way/wayofperfection.cfm
Interior Castle: sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/index.htm

S. Therese of Liseux is also a Doctor of the Church and Carmelite, but maybe she is more an expert on humility and service to God and others, and missionary work than on Mystical Theology

Autobiography of St. Therese of Liseux: The Story of a Soul gutenberg.org/etext/16772
The Teaching of St. Therese of Liseux on Purgatory: franciscan-sfo.org/ap/litfwrpu.htm

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[JimR-OCDS]

FYI, there is no formation in OCDS that uses the term, “Centering Prayer.” That doesn’t mean Carmelites as a whole reject it, because for those who have the correct information, it is what the method of Contemplative Prayer is. Its just that its become so controversial, they prefer to use “mental prayer,” or just “contemplative prayer,” to avoid confusing it with bastardized versions of CP.

Heck, its gotten to the point that using the term, “Contemplative Prayer,” will get you into a debate in Catholic forums.

I hope we don’t have to find another term to avoid such conflicts.

Jim

 

[beckycmarie]

I hope we don’t have to find another term to avoid such conflicts.

LOL - just think of all the battles the phrase “dark night” has started around here. . .

:slapfight:

 

[Lifeisawesome]

Yes - all my gracious friends. I don’t want to offend nor do I intend to get out of bounds into a banned topic. I think I have what I need. Any further links appreciated. To reiterate, I am looking for info that allows for the proper place of ascetic and mystical theology in formation regarding prayer and mystical life.

Blessings on you all.

 

[beckycmarie]

To reiterate, I am looking for info that allows for the proper place of ascetic and mystical theology in formation regarding prayer and mystical life.

This might be what you’re looking for, and you can read the whole book online:

Spiritual Theology
by Fr. Jordan Aumann

In Spiritual Theology Father Jordan Aumann dispels the common misconception that ascetical and mystical theology is for the select few. He reminds us that “the real purpose of the study of the spiritual life is not to produce scholars but to form holy Christians.”

Basing much of his work on St. Thomas Aquinas, St. John of the Cross, and St. Teresa, Father Aumann proves that Christian perfection consists especially in charity, a charity richly rewarded in spiritual graces.

 

[DBT]

Any further links appreciated.

Adding to Becky’s, another great link:

www.christianperfection.info/content1.php

This is for “Three Ages of the Interior Life” by Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange, OP (Pope John Paul II retreat master). This is a classic work heavily based on the teachings of St. John of the Cross and following the classic scheme of the Purgative, Illuminative and Unitive ways. Pretty heavy lifting, though.

Best of luck,
Dave

PS - His Introduction goes into great depth on the interplay of asceticism and mysticism. All else flows from this.