Ascetic and Mystical Theology - Problems in Prayer Perspective

[arvinsim]

I think some people (myself included ) may try to go about all this backwards - seeking contemplation before making an effort at doing the basics - precepts of the Church, avoiding mortal sin and making a real effort at avoiding venial sin, and daily prayer.

Four years ago, I tried to read The Interior Castle while in mortal sin and going to Mass sporadically and praying, or even thinking about God maybe once a week. I may as well have been reading Russian! It’s clear now that I didn’t get it because I wasn’t even in the castle yet. . . I was nowhere near it.

Goodness! This answers a lot of questions that I have.

 

[Lifeisawesome]

Friends - I have created a group on LinkedIn called “Catholic Spiritiual Direction” - if you use linkedIn you would be a great addition to the dialogue. The only caveat is that Centering Prayer is also banned in that group.

Pax Christi

 

[Lifeisawesome]

Becky - this is great stuff - thanks!

This might be what you’re looking for, and you can read the whole book online:

Spiritual Theology
by Fr. Jordan Aumann

 

[Augustine]

Wonder if any of you brilliant folks have pondered the idea that most modern error regarding prayer can be traced back to the desire to bypass the ascetic before entering into or having an expectation of the mystical?

I’m not brilliant nor well versed in all modern errors, but St. Teresa starts her Interior Castle that those still spellbound by sin have not crossed the moat to enter the Castle yet. In other words, it’s folly to pretend to have crossed the drawbridge to the castle where the Savior is when one’s not even acknowledged Jesus as Lord of one’s life.

 

[Augustine]

Friends - I have created a group on LinkedIn called “Catholic Spiritiual Direction” - if you use linkedIn you would be a great addition to the dialogue.

I use LinkedIn, but since it’s a social-networking site for those who have jobs, I assumed that that group was for spiritual directors only, isn’t it?

TIA

 

[Lifeisawesome]

Augustine,

Actually, the group is for regular Catholics seeking to deepen their faith. It is a bit of a play on words. Direction = Trajectory to those who have no exposure to Direction = spiritual guide… Similarly, the bog has the same purpose and approach - but is the place where we post the means and perspectives necessary to grow in faith. www.RCSpiritualDirection.blogspot.com is the blog I am referring to.

Make sense? Feel free to join us.

 

[Monica4316]

Great thread!!

I think that is VERY true. Mystical prayer would only be an illusion from the devil without humility and growing in virtue…

A few years ago I was a baby Christian but read a bit of St Teresa of Avila’s autobiography. It was interesting how that turned out… I thought all the parts about humility and discernment were boring, and the parts where she described her visions and esctasies were of course more interesting. That just shows what a beginning Christian I was the whole book was way above me, and probably still is. But sometimes I return to it and to the Interior Castle and sometimes I learn a lot from St Teresa. It was partly because of her I saw the importance of having a spiritual director and obeying the Church.

I have a question for those who know about contemplation…

you mentioned that it’s not always linear.
Well on what level of spiritual growth must one be at to start practicing contemplative prayer? When I say ‘spiritual growth’ I mean things like humility, dying to self, loving God and neighbour, in other words - the asceticism not the mysticism. Let’s say you’re a Catholic in good standing, you go to Confession and receive the Eucharist and pray daily… let’s say you feel contrition for your sins and see all the ways you still need to improve, and are trying hard to avoid occasions of sin and always repent when you do sin. You don’t seek any spiritual experiences, you just want to serve God and you aren’t overly focused on feelings of God’s presence, etc. However, sometimes you notice that you have certain ‘mystical’ experiences, I dont mean visions and such but you communicate with God somehow. For example, during Adoration. Sometimes your prayer becomes remotely contemplative on its own, you’re not trying to do anything.

My question is… even though in this example you’re not really spiritually advanced, could the experiences still be from God because you are focused on the right things and are trying your best to grow in humility?

so you don’t need to be a Saint before God grants you any ‘mystical’ experiences? I’m not saying this because I’m looking for such experiences - St Therese didn’t have much of them and she’s one of the greatest Saints, clearly other things matter more - but if you HAD things happen to you in the past, how do you know if they were from God? (let’s assume the experiences passed all the other tests - there was good fruit, etc…and you’re planning to discuss this with a spiritual director if you ever get one)

hope my question makes sense…

 

[Lifeisawesome]

Monica - in my view the short answer is 1) you are already participating in contemplative prayer (one cannot “practice” it in the strictest sense) and 2) God decides when someone can or will experience Him. What one can do is their best to prepare their hearts for whatever He wills when He wills it. Dubay’s books, Prayer Primer, and Fire Within provide great explanations of these issues. See the book recommendations on www.RCSpiritualDirection.blogspot.com for more on these. Also, here is a great quote from “Common Mystic Prayer” by Gabriel Diefenback OFM Cap. that sums it up.

Page 20 – “ It may be noted that the essential prayer-element in meditation is not the thought and reflection. This might be a mere mental exercise. Reflection is used to stir the will to love. Only at his point does prayer really begin – when the will is drawn to God in love, adoration, petition, thanksgiving. If little thinking and imagining is required for this, so much the better, for the more time is then given to real prayer, the occupation of the heart.”

Then comes contemplation as God wills (or, before if he wills).

 

[DBT]

Monica -

I would only add the following to what Lifeisawesome said:

1. Stay focused on the ascetic as you described. Self-denial and practice of virtue is the foundation for everything contemplative -whether it falls in the “ordinary way” or “extraordinary.” You mentioned the Interior Castle. The prayer states St. Teresa describes in that book (Recollection and Quiet) are more common than we might think and are considered “ordinary” contemplative graces. These type of experiences, however, are quite distinct from what falls under the “extraordinary way;” namely visions, locutions and so on.
2. If you stay focused on the ascetic as briefly described above, St. John of the Cross details specific “signs” by which one can discern if God is calling him to contemplative prayer. First is an increasing desire for solitude simply to be alone with Him. Second is the lack of desire or ability to meditate as in the past. This can be a time of great distress since the soul likely thinks it’s doing something wrong because it no longer draws satisfaction from its prayer . . . so they try and force it which only makes matters worse. ***
3. What God is doing with this dryness is calling the soul in a very subtle way to infused contemplation . . . it’s really a matter of intuition to discern. At such times we are to let go our “do-ing” in prayer so that we can simply “be.” Words give way to a loving resting in His presence; thoughts, feelings and emotions begin to still. St. Teresa describes this transition from “do-ing” to “be-ing” so wonderfully in chapters 28-31 of Way of Perfection. She describes how one can “feel” (i.e. intuit) the Lords call, how the eyes begin to close and one senses a withdrawing into oneself like a turtle drawing its head inside its shell. I really don’t do this justice . . . these chapters are very much worth the read.

Hope this helps . . .
Dave

*** note to #2: There’s actually 3 signs but I don’t have the book right now to look the last one up. The important thing is that all three must be present to know for sure God is calling the soul in this way.

 

[Lifeisawesome]

Dave - well done… a Spiritual Director can be extremely helpful at this stage.

 

[DBT]

Monica -

Regarding St. John of the Cross . . .
Ascent of Mount Carmel:

The signs for recognizing in spiritual persons when they should discontinue discursive meditation and pass on to the state of contemplation:

The first is the realization that one cannot make discursive meditation or receive satisfaction from it as before. Dryness is now the outcome…however, as long as one can make discursive meditation and draw out satisfaction, one must not abandon this method.

The second sign is an awareness of a disinclination to fix the imagination or sense faculties on other particular objects, exterior or interior. (Note: this is the transition from do-ing to be-ing or, in St. Teresa terms, the flow from meditation to Prayer of Recollection then Prayer of Quiet . . . the progressive stilling of our senses and deepening of interior quiet)

The third and surest sign is that a person likes to remain alone in loving awareness of God…Such a one prefers to remain only in the general loving awareness and knowledge we mentioned (second sign), without any particular knowledge or understanding (Note: not thinking or reasoning about Him or talking - even interiorly - with words: just be-ing)

And stating it a little differently . . . stressing the purgative aspects of the passive night of sense:
Dark Night:

The first sign is that since these souls do not get satisfaction or consolation from the things of God, they do not get any from creatures either. He does not allow it to find sweetness or delight in anything.

The second sign for the discernment of this purgation is that the memory ordinarily turns to God solicitously and with painful care, and the soul thinks it is not serving God but turning back.

The third sign for the discerment of this purgation of the senses is the powerlessness, in spite of one’s efforts, to meditate and make use of the imagination, the interior sense, as was one’s previous custom. God begins to communicate himself through pure spirit by an act of simple contemplation in which there is no discursive succession of thought.

Dave

 

[DBT]

I should probably add a brief point of clarification to St. John’s signs. When he says “give up” meditation for contemplation he means *for that time of prayer *not as in giving it up forever. Understanding this distinction was very hard for me to grasp at first.

When our Lord first begins to call us in this way we will likely find we fluctuate between meditation and contemplation. Some days our meditation goes well; other days we feel drawn to set aside our thoughts and imagining for the simple resting we “feel” drawn to. Again, St. Teresa’s “Way of Perfection” is wonderful for explaining this transition. And this pattern of prayer - the ebb and flow between the active and passive - will likely go on for quite some time - perhaps even years.

For some, however, they may find the day does come when little or no meditation is required at all to recollect the mind and heart. These souls are so alive with love that, in a manner of speaking, they are almost always “full.” Then, all it takes is a brief thought of Him or quick glance upon the tabernacle or monstrance and they find themselves fully recollected.

Not sure if this makes sense . . . but hope it helps.

Dave