Ash Monday or Ash Wednesday

  • Thread starter Charlie_Zeaiter
  • Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

Charlie_Zeaiter

Guest
In some Eastern Churches, Lent begins on Ash Monday and not Ash Wednesday.

Does anybody know why?
 
In some Eastern Churches, Lent begins on Ash Monday and not Ash Wednesday.

Does anybody know why?
It is called the first day of the Great Fast and NOT ASH MONDAY!
No Eastern Church uses ashes, that is a Latin Particular Church custom. It is a day of Strict Fast, no meat, no dairy.

Ung
 
Ok, well what about the Great Fast; Is that a 40 day season too? And if so, how are the 40 days counted?
 
Is that not another example of a Latinization?

Ung
That it may very well be… and?

You asserted it was not found in eastern churches. It is there, Latinization or not…

In the case of the Maronites, without corresponding non-Catholic counterpart, it is kind of difficult to expect them to not evolve or reform liturgies in any fashion, and if to do so to do so exclusively from neighboring Eastern liturgical families.

And as Latinized as they may be, my brief time with them for a few months in Cali when I could ride a bus to their parish but not ours, something refreshing about them (at times) was in response to my question “Is that a Latinization?” was generally “That’s just how we do.” The somewhat laidback approach to what is a Maronite tradition seemed to work for them. “Its ours, we do what we want” I guess.
 
It is called the first day of the Great Fast and NOT ASH MONDAY!

It’s also called Pure Monday.
 
Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever!

The Great Fast lasts forty days. Just begin counting from the first day of the Great Fast ( Pure Monday)until you reach the fortieth day.

Yours in Christ,

Father Deacon Paul
 
The 40-day Great Fast begins after Forgiveness Vespers on the eve of Clean Monday, and extends until the eve of Lazarus Saturday. It is the immediate preparation for Passion (Holy) Week and the glorious Pascha.
FDRLB
 
That it may very well be… and?

You asserted it was not found in eastern churches. It is there, Latinization or not…

In the case of the Maronites, without corresponding non-Catholic counterpart, it is kind of difficult to expect them to not evolve or reform liturgies in any fashion, and if to do so to do so exclusively from neighboring Eastern liturgical families.

And as Latinized as they may be, my brief time with them for a few months in Cali when I could ride a bus to their parish but not ours, something refreshing about them (at times) was in response to my question “Is that a Latinization?” was generally “That’s just how we do.” The somewhat laidback approach to what is a Maronite tradition seemed to work for them. “Its ours, we do what we want” I guess.
I was at a Maronite Qurbono tonight and the priest who is extremely against Latinizations (and understandable so), mentioned how the ritual was inherited from the Roman Church. It’s not necessarily a bad thing, the distribution of ashes, but it’s not an authentic Maronite tradition. The Maronites, from what I can gather (reading, attending Qurbono, talking with parishioners, etc) have an extremely hard time with their liturgy and trying to keep it distinctly Syro-Antiochene, Maronite specifically.

From what I understand, there’s a strong movement in the Maronite Church to return to the days before the Roman Church “dropped the bomb on them” so to speak.

Alaha minokhoun
Andrew
 
I was at a Maronite Qurbono tonight and the priest who is extremely against Latinizations (and understandable so), mentioned how the ritual was inherited from the Roman Church. It’s not necessarily a bad thing, the distribution of ashes, but it’s not an authentic Maronite tradition. The Maronites, from what I can gather (reading, attending Qurbono, talking with parishioners, etc) have an extremely hard time with their liturgy and trying to keep it distinctly Syro-Antiochene, Maronite specifically.

From what I understand, there’s a strong movement in the Maronite Church to return to the days before the Roman Church “dropped the bomb on them” so to speak.

Alaha minokhoun
Andrew
It is in fact a complicated issue, with some parties looking for restoration of pre-Roman influence, some liking the status quo of todays post conciliar liturgy, and a third (smallest) party promoting a return to the much more heavily latinized pre-Vatican II “Marinonite Mass”. (The SSPX supports such an effort, having an affiliated monastery in Scotland where two or three Maronites celebrate the “old rite” in fiddlebacks at high altars. I kid you not!)

Questions of “the bomb being dropped” are sort of difficult to sort through. Regardless of origins of some practices, how many generations may something exist before it is said to be “owned” by the locals? What mandate is there to always and everywhere seek restoration of older or more primative usages? At what point does one start to run into issues of Antiquarianism? What is the “magic date” for the perfect template of liturgy?

I used to be very concerned about all these things… It occured to me that it is remarkable difficult to be a “purist” to anyone’s satisfaction though. Certainly no significant party of Romans is clamoring for the expurgation of that eastern-originated holiday Christmas! And if you should meet any Roman voiciferously demanding a return to Masses in catacomb tombs and recieiving converts by having them to wear sack clothe and ashes, gently suggest they seek counseling.

A decade ago I met a pious Maronite who lived through some atrocities no child should live through during the Leabanese Civil War. He emerged from the experience deeply spiritual. He became a vegetarian on the spiritual merits of its penitential nature, and wishing to take himself outside of the cycle of seeing life ended rather than based on the merits of his Maronite patrimony. He developped a great love for the Rosary and a joy in reading about Saing Margaret Mary’s writings on the Sacred Heart. He would not dream of not receiving the Eucharist daily, and went to Roman Mass often. He would not dream of NOT going to it because it was not Maronite… If he read about a saint in the Roman Church or one of the new martyrs from the Greek Catholic Church, he would frequently develop a spiritual relationship to them.

Now if any party here wishes to approach this man and tell him to quit talking to the Mother of God with that Roman rosary or to Jesus in adoration, or worrying about the writings of saints who came from France… Well do me a favor and give me a heads-up. I want to be in another room far, far away when that goes down.

I don’t mean to belabor the point, but my time with the Maronites has made me sensitive to those outside the community who, acting as purists, put the moniker of “Latinized” in them all too readily and knowingly (often smugly) want to say “look at them! What a pity! tsk, tsk”. A few months back, a YouTube clip of their liturgy seemed to be brought up on CAF by parties who I can’t help but believe had no more edifying intention than to do just that.
 
I just visited a Latin parish for Ash Wednesday. I asked the priest why they put on the ashes. He told me that it is a symbol of our need for Christ in our sinfulness, and the penitent attitude we are to have during Lent.

That sold me. We Copts greatly love symbolism, and I thought the symbolism was so deep it made me almost cry.

Who cares about the origins of a practice? “Is it righteous and holy?” - that is the only question that ever enters my mind. All else is legalism.

I give a two thumbs up for Ash Wednesday, whichever particular Church may practice it.

BTW, I saw a Mexican woman help an old Chinese lady to her seat during the Mass. Of course I love my Coptic tradition, but I also greatly appreciate how evidently Catholic (i.e., embraces all people) the Latin Catholic Church is.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
I just visited a Latin parish for Ash Wednesday. I asked the priest why they put on the ashes. He told me that it is a symbol of our need for Christ in our sinfulness, and the penitent attitude we are to have during Lent.

That sold me.
Ashes, like dust, “are a very eloquent sign of weakness, **of sin **and of the mortality of man,” and to receive them one recognizes his limitation, the cardinal affirmed. Wealth, knowledge, glory, power, titles and dignities, he said, “do nothing for us.”

zenit.org/article-21699?l=english
 
Dear brother (sister?) Chaldean Rite,

Thank you for the link.

The explanation of the ashes struck a chord that was in tune with my Oriental spirituality. As an Oriental (distinct from Eastern) Christian, do you have a similar appreciation for the symbolism used by the Latin Church?

Blessings,
Marduk
 
I read somewhere that Ash Wednesday originated with penence. Today, penence is pretty easy physically even if it isn’t emotionally. This was not always so. In the old days, you would get a sentence from the priest of a number of years that you had to sit outside of the Church with Ashes on your head and cry out to those going in to pray for you and you were not allowed to attend mass until the priest said you could. Even when you were allowed to attend mass again you had to leave before the Eucharist and it was a few more years before you were eventually recieved back fully into the Church and allowed to recieve Communion.

This system was obviouly relaxed a great deal. From this system of penence the system of indulgences began. The priest could give a person sentenced to two years outside of the Church a one year indulgence and that would reduce the amount of time they had to stay outside. Helping the priest, doing penence, reading the bible were all things that could do to get you an indulgence and prove to the priest that you were really sorry for what you did and that you were clean enough to reenter the Church.

I read somewhere that the ashes on the head in the Latin Rite was begun as sort of a way of reminding people to remain holy. The sybolism of our need for Christ, the fact that your bodies will return to dust if we are in our sins when we die and the memory of the earlier penence system were all part of it.

I also read that purgatory is thought by some people to still resemble this old penence system. The souls in purgatory are sitting outside the gates of Heaven crying out to the saints in heaven worshiping God to pray for them. When a soul spends enought time outside of the gates in accordance with the judgement handed down on it or recieves an indulgence to cover the remaining time, then they are finally clean enough and allowed to enter Heaven.

What I don’t know is once a soul is finished with purgatory, do they enter Heaven right away and wait in heaven for the resurrection or are they immediatly reunited with their body (since we believe in the resurrection of the Body) and thus then have their body in Heaven the same a Jesus and Mary.
 
The 40-day Great Fast begins after Forgiveness Vespers on the eve of Clean Monday,
Monday of first week of Great Fast is called Clean Monday (чистый понедельник) because many families are to clean their houses from the things of Maslenitsa (last week of Lenten preparation) because during such time often many eat blyny and have some amusements. This is not a Church name - this is just traditional name. Interesting that it is translated as Pure Monday by some above giving it a more “spiritual” implication that its name deserves. But first several days of Great Fast are very important for sorrow for sins.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top