Ash Wednesday - Liturgical Abuse or Poor Taste?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Daddyof4
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
D

Daddyof4

Guest
I’d like to know if anyone can shed some light on this. Today I went to the Ash Wednesday service at my child’s catholic school/church. It was NOT a Mass, only an Ash Wednesday prayer service.

Nonetheless I was a bit perturbed because it had the readings that were read by lectors, including the Gospel. The Gospel was read by the religious education director, who was leading this service. After he read the Gospel, he proceeded to deliver his “homily” to the students and parishoners. After that, he “blessed” the ashes with Holy Water and directed the various eucharistic ministers to distribute the ashes. All this was done with the parish/school priest in attendence. The only thing the priest did was help to distribute ashes.

The service was accompanied with the typical “feel good” music you may encounter at a non denominational/protestant service. Maybe it’s just me, but I hold sacred our Catholic traditons and Liturgy, and this just seemed wrong to me, even if it’s not illicit or contrary to canon law (I don’t know the answer to this). It almost seemed as if this person was relishing “playing priest”.

By the way, would this be considered a liturgical abuse? This is the second year my daughter has been at the school and I’ve been noticing more and more things like this. We normally attend a different parish on Sundays, but its become more apparent as she has been preparing for her Holy Communion this year (we’ve had to participate more in the parish liturgies).
 
Daddyof4 said:
I’d like to know if anyone can shed some light on this. Today I went to the Ash Wednesday service at my child’s catholic school/church. It was NOT a Mass, only an Ash Wednesday prayer service.

Nonetheless I was a bit perturbed because it had the readings that were read by lectors, including the Gospel. The Gospel was read by the religious education director, who was leading this service. After he read the Gospel, he proceeded to deliver his “homily” to the students and parishoners. After that, he “blessed” the ashes with Holy Water and directed the various eucharistic ministers to distribute the ashes. All this was done with the parish/school priest in attendence. The only thing the priest did was help to distribute ashes.

The service was accompanied with the typical “feel good” music you may encounter at a non denominational/protestant service. Maybe it’s just me, but I hold sacred our Catholic traditons and Liturgy, and this just seemed wrong to me, even if it’s not illicit or contrary to canon law (I don’t know the answer to this). It almost seemed as if this person was relishing “playing priest”.

By the way, would this be considered a liturgical abuse? This is the second year my daughter has been at the school and I’ve been noticing more and more things like this. We normally attend a different parish on Sundays, but its become more apparent as she has been preparing for her Holy Communion this year (we’ve had to participate more in the parish liturgies).
Click to expand...
What you likely attended was a Liturgy of the Word service (though I don’t think that ashes can be blessed by laypersons). The parish that I attend had a liturgy of the Word service today at noon (which of course isn’t a Mass), and ashes were to be distributed then. I attended a different Mass today. Here’s an article from the USCCB on this type of service:

usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/order-of-mass/liturgy-of-the-word/
 
Daddyof4 said:
I’d like to know if anyone can shed some light on this. Today I went to the Ash Wednesday service at my child’s catholic school/church. It was NOT a Mass, only an Ash Wednesday prayer service.

Nonetheless I was a bit perturbed because it had the readings that were read by lectors, including the Gospel. The Gospel was read by the religious education director, who was leading this service. After he read the Gospel, he proceeded to deliver his “homily” to the students and parishoners. After that, he “blessed” the ashes with Holy Water and directed the various eucharistic ministers to distribute the ashes. All this was done with the parish/school priest in attendence. The only thing the priest did was help to distribute ashes.

The service was accompanied with the typical “feel good” music you may encounter at a non denominational/protestant service. Maybe it’s just me, but I hold sacred our Catholic traditons and Liturgy, and this just seemed wrong to me, even if it’s not illicit or contrary to canon law (I don’t know the answer to this). It almost seemed as if this person was relishing “playing priest”.

By the way, would this be considered a liturgical abuse? This is the second year my daughter has been at the school and I’ve been noticing more and more things like this. We normally attend a different parish on Sundays, but its become more apparent as she has been preparing for her Holy Communion this year (we’ve had to participate more in the parish liturgies).
Click to expand...
No, There obviously wasn’t a priest there so it was a scripture service with distribution of ashes. I think you need to get your facts about what is real liturgical abuse and what isn’t. and what you described was a typical scripture service. I would say you need to get over this and move on.
 
Denise1957 said:
What you likely attended was a Liturgy of the Word service (though I don’t think that ashes can be blessed by laypersons). The parish that I attend had a liturgy of the Word service today at noon (which of course isn’t a Mass), and ashes were to be distributed then. I attended a different Mass today. Here’s an article from the USCCB on this type of service:

usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/order-of-mass/liturgy-of-the-word/
Click to expand...
Ashes for Ash Wednesday are usually blessed before hand so if it was a Mass or scripture service, the priest has already blessed them.
 
robwar said:
No, There obviously wasn’t a priest there so it was a scripture service with distribution of ashes. I think you need to get your facts about what is real liturgical abuse and what isn’t. and what you described was a typical scripture service. I would say you need to get over this and move on.
Click to expand...
The op mentioned that a priest was present…
All this was done with the parish/school priest in attendence. The only thing the priest did was help to distribute ashes.
Click to expand...
 
Daddyof4 said:
I’d like to know if anyone can shed some light on this. Today I went to the Ash Wednesday service at my child’s catholic school/church. It was NOT a Mass, only an Ash Wednesday prayer service.

Nonetheless I was a bit perturbed because it had the readings that were read by lectors, including the Gospel. The Gospel was read by the religious education director, who was leading this service. After he read the Gospel, he proceeded to deliver his “homily” to the students and parishoners. After that, he “blessed” the ashes with Holy Water and directed the various eucharistic ministers to distribute the ashes. All this was done with the parish/school priest in attendence. The only thing the priest did was help to distribute ashes.
Click to expand...
I would ask the priest for clarification. It is my understanding that only a priest or deacon can bless the ashes. Maybe he had blessed the ashes before hand and this was some sort of ‘symbolic’ gesture?
 
The fact that a priest was present, yet the entire service – including a homily!! – was led by a lay person is a red flag to me. But as a parish musician who is sometimes privy to information the general congregation doesn’t know, there may be a very good reason why things were handled this way.

Last year, our pastor had debilitating back problems. He was also diagnosed with cancer. There were many times when he could barely say the mass on a Sunday, with the altar servers or deacon helping him move about, and a stool he could lean on during the consecration. Some days he couldn’t distribute Holy Communion 😦

So perhaps the priest present at the service was ill or in some way incapacitated 🤷

The school may have chosen to do a service instead of a mass due to time constraints, or the knowledge that most school families would attend mass together in the evening after parents were off of work (that way the school children wouldn’t need to attend mass twice in the same day). Or many other perfectly valid and charitable reasons.

On the other hand, as a single mom who chose my son’s Catholic school entirely for the religious education and support it provides, I understand that this is not about hunting down liturgical abuse for the sake of satisfying self-righteous indignation. You are concerned, it seems, about the spiritual welfare of your child. I think it would be perfectly acceptable to ask the religious education director why they chose to do a service instead of a mass; why the priest did not lead the service; and any other questions you may have. It’s perfectly all right to ask these questions and to choose the kind of religious education – and especially the religious example – being taught to your own child.

You sound like a concerned father, and that is the grace of God.

God bless you!

Gertie
 
A homily is specific part of the Liturgy of the Word at Mass. There was no Mass so what was described was not a homily.

What was given was more correctly called a “reflection” and anyone can give one.

-Tim-
 
At our Ash Wednesday Mass the priest was present and gave the homily, but did not distribute the communion.
 
Thank you Gertabelle, and everyone else. It looks as though I may have not been so clear in my original post. I am not the type that would be considered “ultra Catholic” and too concerned about looking for liturgical abuses. I tend to be an easy going guy. However, I do believe that we have certain Traditions (and traditions) and teachings for a reason in our Church, and for the most part we shouldn’t stray for the sake of leading others astray. It could be a slippery slope.

In this case, the priest was not incapacitated at any way. He was graciously greeting people and had no problem helping distribute the ashes. He stood at the entrance of the sanctuary in front of the baptismal font observing the service. It was a Liturgy of the Word, and I guess there was no liturgical abuse persay (shame on my wording in the OP), but I have noticed a pattern at this Parish. We recently attended a parent meeting for 1st Reconciliation where this same layperson (Director of R.E.) went on a rant about how he grew up with all the strict rules of the Church concerning confession. He told a story of his youth in Catholic school and ridiculed a nun who taught and prepared him for the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Sounded like old Baltimore Catechism stuff (which is correct Church teaching by the way), but there are a lot of clergy and church laypeople that really seem to despise it. His main point was to make sure the children are not afraid of confession, which I completely understand and support, but not in the way he went about it. It’s hard to explain, but I have noticed a lack of reverance at this parish. There are lots of “feel good” things going on with the music. Last week at Mass (students attend Mass once a week), the Kindergarten class went up in front of the altar before the final blessing and sang “Let it go” from the Frozen movie. I’m no stick in the mud, and it was cute, but I also think very inappropriate for Mass. There’s a weekly assembly that would have been more appropriate for this.

On the other hand, the parish does have a great sense of social justice and always go the extra mile to help the poor and outcast. They are very welcoming and a great example to the children in this area. I am happy my daughter can be a part of this and witness this, but I also want her to revere the sacred litury, and understand that the Church and Sacraments are something very special from God, and not to be lumped in with everything else in life.

I felt uneasy about the layperson proclaiming the Gospel, then proceeding to give a sermon as if he was a priest giving a homily; then bless the ashes with an aspergillum and holy water. All done with the priest standing at the entrance watching. Everyone knew he was there. Why couldn’t the priest handle this? Could this attitude be one of the reasons for decreasing vocations in our country? Anyway I digress…

I’m concerned about the message this sends to the young elementary students, including my daughter. I realize my wife and I are the main educators of our children, but I don’t like when things happen contrary to what we’d like to expose her to. Maybe I’m overreacting - I’m not perfect and this could be the case, which is why I haven’t said anything out loud except to my wife about this. - Just wanted to vent and share my frustrations with you all I guess. I also value your (name removed by moderator)ut. I’ve learned a lot on this forum in the past and I have had some great discussions with wonderful people.
 
Daddyof4 said:
Thank you Gertabelle, and everyone else. It looks as though I may have not been so clear in my original post. I am not the type that would be considered “ultra Catholic” and too concerned about looking for liturgical abuses. I tend to be an easy going guy. However, I do believe that we have certain Traditions (and traditions) and teachings for a reason in our Church, and for the most part we shouldn’t stray for the sake of leading others astray. It could be a slippery slope.

In this case, the priest was not incapacitated at any way. He was graciously greeting people and had no problem helping distribute the ashes. He stood at the entrance of the sanctuary in front of the baptismal font observing the service. It was a Liturgy of the Word, and I guess there was no liturgical abuse persay (shame on my wording in the OP), but I have noticed a pattern at this Parish. We recently attended a parent meeting for 1st Reconciliation where this same layperson (Director of R.E.) went on a rant about how he grew up with all the strict rules of the Church concerning confession. He told a story of his youth in Catholic school and ridiculed a nun who taught and prepared him for the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Sounded like old Baltimore Catechism stuff (which is correct Church teaching by the way), but there are a lot of clergy and church laypeople that really seem to despise it. His main point was to make sure the children are not afraid of confession, which I completely understand and support, but not in the way he went about it. It’s hard to explain, but I have noticed a lack of reverance at this parish. There are lots of “feel good” things going on with the music. Last week at Mass (students attend Mass once a week), the Kindergarten class went up in front of the altar before the final blessing and sang “Let it go” from the Frozen movie. I’m no stick in the mud, and it was cute, but I also think very inappropriate for Mass. There’s a weekly assembly that would have been more appropriate for this.

On the other hand, the parish does have a great sense of social justice and always go the extra mile to help the poor and outcast. They are very welcoming and a great example to the children in this area. I am happy my daughter can be a part of this and witness this, but I also want her to revere the sacred litury, and understand that the Church and Sacraments are something very special from God, and not to be lumped in with everything else in life.

I felt uneasy about the layperson proclaiming the Gospel, then proceeding to give a sermon as if he was a priest giving a homily; then bless the ashes with an aspergillum and holy water. All done with the priest standing at the entrance watching. Everyone knew he was there. Why couldn’t the priest handle this? Could this attitude be one of the reasons for decreasing vocations in our country? Anyway I digress…

I’m concerned about the message this sends to the young elementary students, including my daughter. I realize my wife and I are the main educators of our children, but I don’t like when things happen contrary to what we’d like to expose her to. Maybe I’m overreacting - I’m not perfect and this could be the case, which is why I haven’t said anything out loud except to my wife about this. - Just wanted to vent and share my frustrations with you all I guess. I also value your (name removed by moderator)ut. I’ve learned a lot on this forum in the past and I have had some great discussions with wonderful people.
Click to expand...
If you have any concern about anything, why don’t you ask the priest instead of coming on the internet and asking people who were not there with the assumption that this was liturgical abuse? Really? Why don’t you get the Priest’s take on it and the reasons why. It is over reacting. It is always troublesome and repeated too much that someone attends a Mass, this and that happen or didn’t happen, they are bothered by it, assume the worst of the priest etc and then come on the internet to complain or get strangers their opinion on it implying that it’s “liturgy abuse” let all run to the hills. My husband and I sat through most all of our children’s Masses at Catholic School. They are usually geared to the children. Maybe the priest didn’t feel well, maybe he had a busy Mass schedule already and wanted a break, maybe in having a scripture service, he felt he could sit back and let others do the readings and talking. I don’t know but you need to ask him, not us. There is no perfect Catholic parish, school RCA program. Nothing happen that “contradicts” whatever you are doing at home. If there is that perfect place, when you join, it will no longer be perfect.
 
robwar said:
If you have any concern about anything, why don’t you ask the priest instead of coming on the internet and asking people who were not there with the assumption that this was liturgical abuse? Really? Why don’t you get the Priest’s take on it and the reasons why. It is over reacting. It is always troublesome and repeated too much that someone attends a Mass, this and that happen or didn’t happen, they are bothered by it, assume the worst of the priest etc and then come on the internet to complain or get strangers their opinion on it implying that it’s “liturgy abuse” let all run to the hills. My husband and I sat through most all of our children’s Masses at Catholic School. They are usually geared to the children. Maybe the priest didn’t feel well, maybe he had a busy Mass schedule already and wanted a break, maybe in having a scripture service, he felt he could sit back and let others do the readings and talking. I don’t know but you need to ask him, not us. There is no perfect Catholic parish, school RCA program. Nothing happen that “contradicts” whatever you are doing at home. If there is that perfect place, when you join, it will no longer be perfect.
Click to expand...
Robwar, I wasn’t going to respond to your posts, but after this I changed my mind. If anyone’'s overreacting, YOU ARE. What’s with you anyway? Why do you seem so offended by my post? Isn’t this point of this forum’s existence in the first place??? Somewhere where people like you and I can come to discuss and ask questions? Also, you are not paying close attention to my details. First you erroneously state that there was no priest when I already said there was, then you make an irrelevant statment concerning the blessed ashes. Please pay attention before responding. You lose credibility this way. Why are you on here anyway if not to give constructive feedback? I gave plenty of background as to why I am concerned. The more I think about it, the more I think I’m justified. One thing you are right about is that I should talk to the priest. I will. Thank you for that.
 
Daddyof4 said:
Thank you Gertabelle, and everyone else. It looks as though I may have not been so clear in my original post. I am not the type that would be considered “ultra Catholic” and too concerned about looking for liturgical abuses. I tend to be an easy going guy. However, I do believe that we have certain Traditions (and traditions) and teachings for a reason in our Church, and for the most part we shouldn’t stray for the sake of leading others astray. It could be a slippery slope.

In this case, the priest was not incapacitated at any way. He was graciously greeting people and had no problem helping distribute the ashes. He stood at the entrance of the sanctuary in front of the baptismal font observing the service. It was a Liturgy of the Word, and I guess there was no liturgical abuse persay (shame on my wording in the OP), but I have noticed a pattern at this Parish. We recently attended a parent meeting for 1st Reconciliation where this same layperson (Director of R.E.) went on a rant about how he grew up with all the strict rules of the Church concerning confession. He told a story of his youth in Catholic school and ridiculed a nun who taught and prepared him for the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Sounded like old Baltimore Catechism stuff (which is correct Church teaching by the way), but there are a lot of clergy and church laypeople that really seem to despise it. His main point was to make sure the children are not afraid of confession, which I completely understand and support, but not in the way he went about it. It’s hard to explain, but I have noticed a lack of reverance at this parish. There are lots of “feel good” things going on with the music. Last week at Mass (students attend Mass once a week), the Kindergarten class went up in front of the altar before the final blessing and sang “Let it go” from the Frozen movie. I’m no stick in the mud, and it was cute, but I also think very inappropriate for Mass. There’s a weekly assembly that would have been more appropriate for this.

On the other hand, the parish does have a great sense of social justice and always go the extra mile to help the poor and outcast. They are very welcoming and a great example to the children in this area. I am happy my daughter can be a part of this and witness this, but I also want her to revere the sacred litury, and understand that the Church and Sacraments are something very special from God, and not to be lumped in with everything else in life.

I felt uneasy about the layperson proclaiming the Gospel, then proceeding to give a sermon as if he was a priest giving a homily; then bless the ashes with an aspergillum and holy water. All done with the priest standing at the entrance watching. Everyone knew he was there. Why couldn’t the priest handle this? Could this attitude be one of the reasons for decreasing vocations in our country? Anyway I digress…

I’m concerned about the message this sends to the young elementary students, including my daughter. I realize my wife and I are the main educators of our children, but I don’t like when things happen contrary to what we’d like to expose her to. Maybe I’m overreacting - I’m not perfect and this could be the case, which is why I haven’t said anything out loud except to my wife about this. - Just wanted to vent and share my frustrations with you all I guess. I also value your (name removed by moderator)ut. I’ve learned a lot on this forum in the past and I have had some great discussions with wonderful people.
Click to expand...
Your concerns about the sermon are completely off base. Anyone can give a reflection on the Gospel as long as it is not a homily at Mass.

-Tim-
 
Tim, you are missing my point. Forget the homily/sermon, I understand that. My point, as I’ve stated is my concern of the seemingly irreverant culture that appears to be forming or already present at this parish/school. It seems to be very protestant-like. I love good uplifting music and prayer services as much as the next person, but I think there’s a time and place for everything. Having a layperson preside over an Ash Wednesday prayer service, (albeit not a Mass) while an Ordained Priest stands idly by sends the wrong message to the young parishoners in my opinion. There seems to be an arrogance about the laity in charge in this position, sometimes to the point of being condescending. I understand this very well (I used to be an RCIA leader) and know how things can easily get out of hand. Not the end of the world, but I’m the type who would rather receive communion from a priest, receive a blessing from a priest, listen to reverent and appropriate music during Mass (not a disney song). I guess I’m just old fashioned.
 
Daddyof4 said:
I’d like to know if anyone can shed some light on this. Today I went to the Ash Wednesday service at my child’s catholic school/church. It was NOT a Mass, only an Ash Wednesday prayer service.

Nonetheless I was a bit perturbed because it had the readings that were read by lectors, including the Gospel. The Gospel was read by the religious education director, who was leading this service. After he read the Gospel, he proceeded to deliver his “homily” to the students and parishoners. After that, he “blessed” the ashes with Holy Water and directed the various eucharistic ministers to distribute the ashes. All this was done with the parish/school priest in attendence. The only thing the priest did was help to distribute ashes.

The service was accompanied with the typical “feel good” music you may encounter at a non denominational/protestant service. Maybe it’s just me, but I hold sacred our Catholic traditons and Liturgy, and this just seemed wrong to me, even if it’s not illicit or contrary to canon law (I don’t know the answer to this). It almost seemed as if this person was relishing “playing priest”.

By the way, would this be considered a liturgical abuse? This is the second year my daughter has been at the school and I’ve been noticing more and more things like this. We normally attend a different parish on Sundays, but its become more apparent as she has been preparing for her Holy Communion this year (we’ve had to participate more in the parish liturgies).
Click to expand...
Friend,

If this sort of thing bothers you, then run for the hills of tradition. Seriously. No Catholic school is worth putting up with this kind of nonsense, err, “parish style,” whether formal abuse or otherwise.
 
Well I’m usually the type that carefully chooses my battles and what to get upset about. For sure there are worse things going on in the world. Did you see the news on that Mass in Seattle on superbowl sunday? I digress again…

I do love other aspects of this school (academics, social justice, love for one another, etc.), but I stand by my concerns. Hopefully things won’t go too much further.
 
I think what he did was ok, but in my opinion probably not the best way.

A layman cannot give the offical blessing of the church on ashes, medals, or in any other way. He can only give his own private blessing for what that is worth, tho he does belong to the priestly people of God. So in blessing the ashes, it would have been better as a blessing if the official priest would have made it.

And since it was all done apart from mass, then the rest was ok.

But the point you made about his criticism of the nuns teaching was inappropriate in my view. What can be gained by shooting down the religious to our children. I think someone should bring his attention to that, and compliment him for the rest.
 
OP:
I would feel the same misgivings that you have described. Whether it is technically licit or not (and I suspect, though I’m not sure, that it is NOT licit for the priest not to preside if he is present), it would also leave a bad taste in my mouth. The situations you have described would not occur in my diocese. Your Sunday parish, I take it, is more on the traditional side?
 
twf said:
OP:
I would feel the same misgivings that you have described. Whether it is technically licit or not (and I suspect, though I’m not sure, that it is NOT licit for the priest not to preside if he is present), it would also leave a bad taste in my mouth. The situations you have described would not occur in my diocese. Your Sunday parish, I take it, is more on the traditional side?
Click to expand...
My Sunday parish is probably what you would encounter in most major metropolitan dioceses around the country. I would call it mostly appropriate with respect to the reverence of the liturgy, however some “conservative” catholics would object to certain things like female alter servers, too many extraordinary/eucharistic ministers, etc. It’s fine for me most of the time, as the pastor and other priests show the proper reverence and respect due to the Holy Mass. Eucharistic Adoration is encouraged, improper attire is frowned upon, and most of all, emphasis on the Holy Eucharist is pronounced consistantly.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top