Asian Catholicism

[TradionalWay]

To my point of view, I would say the Asian catholic church (in general) is somewhat to the higher on of liberalism.

Any suggestions why?

1 example: Music at mass would be mainly from protestant roots, and played with drums, guitars and other "rock’ instruments

 

[trickster]

That is very interesting! I would be very interested in learning more about Asian Catholicsm…I am in Vancovuer, BC, Canada and the Phillipino Community has been a godsent to our diocese, they are renewing old churches that were becoming broke…and they have some awesome takes on the Catholic Church.

Could you elaborate on what you meant when you indicated (or at least I think you did) that the Asian church is on the liberal side (and by liberal I assume you mean progressive too?)

Cheerz

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster (Aboriginal Word for Transformation)

 

[trickster]

To my point of view, I would say the Asian catholic church (in general) is somewhat to the higher on of liberalism.

If you are saying Tradicion that the Asian church is liberal or progressive, what is wrong with that? I am very curious about your question…

 

[xixxvmcm85]

To my point of view, I would say the Asian catholic church (in general) is somewhat to the higher on of liberalism.

Any suggestions why?

1 example: Music at mass would be mainly from protestant roots, and played with drums, guitars and other "rock’ instruments

I cannot agree.

I live in San Francisco, California USA.

We have a very large Asian population here. Among Catholics, the majority of them are Filipinos.

While their style of worship is very untraditional (I’ve observed, like you, that they are much more sympathetic to drums, horribly Protestant hymns, and general irreverence during the Mass), these Catholics are some of the most orthodox Catholics I know. In fact, they put to shame the Greagorian-chant-loving, only-organ-using White people here who worship traditionally yet espouse every liberal thought under the sun including, but not limited to, gay marriage, abortion, contraception, and religious indifferentism.

 

[PerfectTiming]

I took my RCIA in Singapore and attended a parish there for three years.
I would completely disagree with you.
People were much more dedicated in their faith than I have seen here (UK). They dressed more appropriately for Mass. There were fewer of the so-called “cafeteria Catholics”. The sense at Mass is much more joyful - people want to be there, rather than just feeling obliged to be there.

You are confusing non-traditionalism with liberalism. Just because the music is not played on an organ does not make it “liberal”. Our music was not Protestant, it was Catholic and it was in line with Catholic teaching. The instrument it was played on is irrelevant, as long as it is in an appropriate style for Mass.

 

[Sarahforgiven]

Asia covers a lot of areas. My daughter is moving to Japan. I believe there are few Catholics there & would like to learn more about Japanese Catholics if anyone has any first hand knowledge.

 

[Cat]

I agree with Sarahforgiven–“Asian” includes a lot of countries and cultures. May I ask the OP to be specific about which “Asian” churches he/she is referring to?

Also, would it be possible for the OP to share whether they are Asian or related to Asians, and if so, which country?

Thank you.

xixxvmcm85 describes the Filipino Catholic parishioners that I know. They are always at Adoration Chapel, or Benediction, or Daily Mass, and they are incredibly devout and holy in their lives. Many of them have a deep devotion to the Blessed Mother. AND…yes, they like music that is more in line with their culture.

The Church rubrics make it very clear that the Mass music can include music styles of the culture. A pipe organ in many of the humid Asian countries would be virtually impossible except in the wealthiest of church buildings with air-conditioning. (I’ve been taking pipe organ lessons now for several months, and one thing I’ve learned is that humidity wreaks havoc with the pipes on the organ!) An electric organ would work, but the power grid in some of these countries is hardly reliable. It just makes logical sense to use the instruments of the culture, and the Church has endorsed that.

 

[TradionalWay]

To my point of view, I would say the Asian catholic church (in general) is somewhat to the higher on of liberalism. .

As mentioned in later comments, I suggested as not stuck to tradition, as you would see it in Europe

I cannot agree…

I actually live in asia, so I know the situation, I was in mass, and they started to sing hymns, which are written, and sung by protestant churches (as my mom is protestant)

The question didn’t come out as clear. What do you (all of you) suggest that the church here is not as orthodox?

I took my RCIA in Singapore and attended a parish there for three years.

This is actually what I meant, just read above sorry for the confusion

 

[thistle]

To my point of view, I would say the Asian catholic church (in general) is somewhat to the higher on of liberalism.

Any suggestions why?

1 example: Music at mass would be mainly from protestant roots, and played with drums, guitars and other "rock’ instruments

I live in the Philippines which has the highest Catholic population in Asia and I totally disagree with your comments.

 

[RPRPsych]

Asia is a huge area, so it’d be a bit hard to generalize about “Asian Catholicism”.

I can only speak for that corner of it which I come from, which is the southern part of India.

It’s difficult to divide Catholics into “conservative” and “liberal” here, because those labels aren’t commonly used.

On the good side, there are plenty of historic shrines (such as the two of St. Thomas in my hometown), a firm tradition of pilgrimages (such as to the Shrine of Our Lady of Good Health, about 3 hours’ journey from where I stay), and a wide variety of traditional devotions. There are regular Masses in the vernacular and in English, regular Rosaries, and a number of traditional Church activities (such as the Legion of Mary, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, etc.) Most Catholics are regular church-goers, and there is formal preparation for all the Sacraments, conducted by the Church in collaboration with the laity. Many churches have an Adoration Chapel which is open round the clock. Some parishes are genuinely enthusiastic, and are able to reconcile tradition with technology.

On the not-so-good side, there is always a temptation towards liturgical abuses and syncretism - parts of the Mass are sometimes replaced wholesale by “solo vocal performances” from an enthusiastic priest, and improvised prayers are interpolated at times. There are also some who try to blend in gestures / rituals from Hinduism, but fortunately, this is a minority practice. Also, there is a lot of Protestant influence - most “Christian Music” that people listen to is Protestant, and a lot of Protestant songs are played during Mass.

On the down-side, there is a lot of indifferentism, and the “cafeteria spirit” has crept in too. Beliefs in universal salvation and that “all religions can lead you to Heaven” are common, and evangelization has fallen off (leaving the field free for any number of Protestant groups and even home-brew sects). There is widespread acceptance of the caste system (a regrettable legacy of our culture), with marriages and social cliques often formed on the basis of this. Marriage, in particular, takes a beating - the Church has tried to fight this by organizing compulsory pre-marriage counselling, but this is often very desultory. Contraception, sterilization, and even abortion are (tragically) not uncommon, and are often justified by their practitioners on economic grounds.

But if this summary sounds rather gloomy, I must hasten to emphasize that these are just generalizations. There is still plenty of room and opportunity for the Church in India to grow, and I believe that it will certainly grown stronger.

St. Thomas, pray for us!

Some additional information:

The first Saint of Indian origin, St. Alphonsa, was canonized in 2008 by the Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI. The following page has a lot of details about her:

alphonsa.com/Content-1/SAINT-ALPHONSA.html

The church I regularly attend in Pondicherry, where I work:

sacredheartpondy.com/index.html

My parish church (I can’t find their homepage link right now; will post it later):

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Patrick%27s_Cathedral,_Chennai

 

[elivan]

There’s no Asian churches where i live, wouldn’t mind checking it out. We’re all brothers of GOD

 

[tbtcom1213]

Ironically the Pauline Missal wasn’t used in China until the 1990’s.

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2010/12/vatican-rebuke-to-patriotic-church-in.html?m=1

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2009/04/cardinal-zen-and-trad
itional-rite.html?m=1

the-pope.com/church11.html

 

[codefro]

I have always thought of Asian Catholics as very orthodox, but also very evangelical. They find the hybrid.

 

[Celticnovice]

My fiancee is Vietnamese…and in my limited experience with the Vietnamese Catholic community I have found them to be quite Traditional

 

[ConstantineTG]

I live in the Philippines which has the highest Catholic population in Asia and I totally disagree with your comments.

Well, there is a huge Protestant push in the Philippines and in a lot of traditionally Roman Catholic countries. Many of those missionaries are funded by Filipinos here in North America. I know, my cousin is one of them.

 

[ConstantineTG]

By the way, as a Filipino myself, I agree with both side.

I do not agree that we are liberal in the North American sense. We still have conservative sensibilities although we are fast becoming secularized as a culture. Protestantization has infiltrated our rich Catholic traditions. But yes, we are a very spiritual and devout people. Going to church on Sunday is part of our cultural identity. And we are deeply devout. I think the Protestantization is also a reflection of this devout faith. Those who were lured into Protestant faiths remain fervent and thus have a great desire to proselytize and convert erstwhile Roman Catholics.

 

[TradionalWay]

Well, there is a huge Protestant push in the Philippines and in a lot of traditionally Roman Catholic countries. Many of those missionaries are funded by Filipinos here in North America. I know, my cousin is one of them.

Exactly what I meant

By the way, as a Filipino myself, I agree with both side.

I do not agree that we are liberal in the North American sense. We still have conservative sensibilities although we are fast becoming secularized as a culture. Protestantization has infiltrated our rich Catholic traditions. But yes, we are a very spiritual and devout people. Going to church on Sunday is part of our cultural identity. And we are deeply devout. I think the Protestantization is also a reflection of this devout faith. Those who were lured into Protestant faiths remain fervent and thus have a great desire to proselytize and convert erstwhile Roman Catholics.

At mass, do you see allot of tenancies to protestantism?

 

[thistle]

Exactly what I meant

**At mass, do you see allot of tenancies to protestantism?/**QUOTE]

This is nonsense. You are simply fishing because you don’t know what you are talking about. In how many Asian countries have you actually attended Mass?

 

[ALotLessThumb]

I think we should be careful in labeling Catholicism as practiced in Asia, or by Asians, as “liberal.” Liberalism is a belief system and not an active way of being. You can put “liberal” or "conservative " ideas into actions but you are either reverent or irreverent in your practices. The very delineation on political groupings is a lattice of a liberal mind shaped by cultural significances found in the west that are more historical than universal.

Adopting Protestant music and other unusual features may cross the line in terms of reverence for the universal (catholic) need for piety; but in some instances (like most of the music and certain of the other things that may seem less than solemn, ) it may represent and aid a healthy expression for an active faith.

I am not talking about alien activities here (especially by a Priest) but, it should be kept in mind that a lot of cultural pious practices that Latin Catholics in the West adopted were born out of our cultural particulars and especially the pain of the Reformation. Beethoven certainly can be appreciated by all, and even the atheist Berlioz wrote music for a Catholic mass, but they do come from a Western culture that doesn’t transcend the Church or Her Mission.

Going to say, Thailand, and being disturbed about some Protestant music is more of a remembrance for the cultural difficulties like the French Wars of Religion that do not apply to, or have the same significance for, a Thai man or woman.

Unlike what Mr.Belloc believed, Europe is not the Faith but the Faith will save Europe and Asia and the Americas and…People are messy and struggle- we should be charitable, and hope for charity ourselves, when we strive to live the Gospel and live to serve Christ.

 

[TradionalWay]

TradionalWay;8490471:

Exactly what I meant

At mass, do you see allot of tenancies to protestantism?/

QUOTE]

This is nonsense. You are simply fishing because you don’t know what you are talking about. In how many Asian countries have you actually attended Mass?

Ohhh come on!! U know exactly what I mean… There is a EXCEPTION to some parishes only

I think we should be careful in labeling Catholicism as practiced in Asia, or by Asians, as “liberal.” Liberalism is a belief system and not an active way of being. You can put “liberal” or "conservative " ideas into actions but you are either reverent or irreverent in your practices. The very delineation on political groupings is a lattice of a liberal mind shaped by cultural significances found in the west that are more historical than universal.

Adopting Protestant music and other unusual features may cross the line in terms of reverence for the universal (catholic) need for piety; but in some instances (like most of the music and certain of the other things that may seem less than solemn, ) it may represent and aid a healthy expression for an active faith.

I am not talking about alien activities here (especially by a Priest) but, it should be kept in mind that a lot of cultural pious practices that Latin Catholics in the West adopted were born out of our cultural particulars and especially the pain of the Reformation. Beethoven certainly can be appreciated by all, and even the atheist Berlioz wrote music for a Catholic mass, but they do come from a Western culture that doesn’t transcend the Church or Her Mission.

Going to say, Thailand, and being disturbed about some Protestant music is more of a remembrance for the cultural difficulties like the French Wars of Religion that do not apply to, or have the same significance for, a Thai man or woman.

Unlike what Mr.Belloc believed, Europe is not the Faith but the Faith will save Europe and Asia and the Americas and…People are messy and struggle- we should be charitable, and hope for charity ourselves, when we strive to live the Gospel and live to serve Christ.

I’m not saying there is a lack of faith by the people here, they really are very faithful! Most in the world, just some small stuff (like mentioned before music, holding hands ect.)