Asian Catholicism

[ConstantineTG]

Exactly what I meant

At mass, do you see allot of tenancies to protestantism?

I have to side with thisle here. Whats the point in this? Talk about it and get worked up about it? How does that benefit our soul? Or theirs?

The state of Catholicism is what it is. One reason I really loved the Eastern Rites and moved there is because people do not get worked up by different sub-traditions within the greater Byzantine tradition. One from the Ruthenian Church won’t get worked up if the Ukrainians have different practices, different tones, etc. within the same Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

I make this point because for example a lot here would complain about guitars at Mass. Filipino culture is heavily influenced by Spanish culture, guitars are our instrument of choice. Even if you install a pipe organ in every parish in the country, you’d be hard pressed to find one who can play it. We’re a poor country and very few (usually the wealthy) get to even touch a keyboard instrument. Playing the guitar is an expression of our culture. So is it Protestantism? No. Its the inculturation of the faith.

 

[Cat]

I think we should be careful in labeling Catholicism as practiced in Asia, or by Asians, as “liberal.” Liberalism is a belief system and not an active way of being. You can put “liberal” or "conservative " ideas into actions but you are either reverent or irreverent in your practices. The very delineation on political groupings is a lattice of a liberal mind shaped by cultural significances found in the west that are more historical than universal.

Adopting Protestant music and other unusual features may cross the line in terms of reverence for the universal (catholic) need for piety; but in some instances (like most of the music and certain of the other things that may seem less than solemn, ) it may represent and aid a healthy expression for an active faith.

I am not talking about alien activities here (especially by a Priest) but, it should be kept in mind that a lot of cultural pious practices that Latin Catholics in the West adopted were born out of our cultural particulars and especially the pain of the Reformation. Beethoven certainly can be appreciated by all, and even the atheist Berlioz wrote music for a Catholic mass, but they do come from a Western culture that doesn’t transcend the Church or Her Mission.

Going to say, Thailand, and being disturbed about some Protestant music is more of a remembrance for the cultural difficulties like the French Wars of Religion that do not apply to, or have the same significance for, a Thai man or woman.

Unlike what Mr.Belloc believed, Europe is not the Faith but the Faith will save Europe and Asia and the Americas and…People are messy and struggle- we should be charitable, and hope for charity ourselves, when we strive to live the Gospel and live to serve Christ.

This is such a good post. Thank you for lifting up my soul with so many good statements.

It has never occurred to me that using political groupings to label religious practices is a Western cultural practice. Very thought-provoking. I will attempt to be more cautious about this in the future.

And you’re right–even if the choice of practice is questionable (e.g., contemporary music, etc.), the motivation is almost always a desire for a deeper faith and more vibrant Church. Thankfully the Lord Jesus sees our hearts and our motives, and is probably not nearly so harsh in his judgement as some of His children are.

 

[Cat]

I have to side with thisle here. Whats the point in this? Talk about it and get worked up about it? How does that benefit our soul? Or theirs?

The state of Catholicism is what it is. One reason I really loved the Eastern Rites and moved there is because people do not get worked up by different sub-traditions within the greater Byzantine tradition. One from the Ruthenian Church won’t get worked up if the Ukrainians have different practices, different tones, etc. within the same Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

I make this point because for example a lot here would complain about guitars at Mass. Filipino culture is heavily influenced by Spanish culture, guitars are our instrument of choice. Even if you install a pipe organ in every parish in the country, you’d be hard pressed to find one who can play it. We’re a poor country and very few (usually the wealthy) get to even touch a keyboard instrument. Playing the guitar is an expression of our culture. So is it Protestantism? No. Its the inculturation of the faith.

This is really excellent, too. Thank you for your comments about inculturation of the faith. In the United States, we are a melting pot of many different cultures. In recent years, the various Hispanic peoples have become a larger part of our population, along with many Asian peoples, Middle Eastern (Muslim) peoples, and also quite a large population of various Slavic peoples in our part of the country (near Chicago).

Eventually, in a hundred years or so, the various cultures will probably “melt” together and we will have an “American culture” that is quite hybrid, although it seems that many cultures are resisting becoming “Americanized” now; e.g., African Americans are struggling to maintain African practices. Perhaps the “shrinking of the world” and the influence of online communication has something to do with this, and perhaps in the future, we will not see an “Americanization” of every culture that is represented in the U.S.A. population. Perhaps instead of a “cultural stew,” we will see more of an “appetizer tray,” with separate cultures co-existing with each other in the U.S.A.

One thing that I’m fairly certain that we will see is less influence by the “white Eurocentric” cultures, since there are less and less of them in the world. I think we’re going to see more and more Hispanic cultural practices in the U.S.A. I’m even wondering if eventually the language will become dual English/Spanish. (I live in a city with a huge Hispanic population, BTW, so perhaps that’s the way it appears to me.) Or perhaps, with the creation of more advanced computer translation aids, we will eliminate a common language and use the languages of our childhood.

Whether or not the cultures in the U.S.A. eventually “melt,” at this time in history, right now, where and when all of us in the U.S.A. are currently living, most of these peoples are still maintaining many of their cultural traditions, especially their own music and arts, rather than giving them up and adopting “white, Eurocentric” cultural practices.

I don’t think that the Catholic Church is demanding that the entire world become white, Romance European, and I would be willing to predict that the Church Herself will become even more multi-cultural in the future. I personally believe that the Church’s current experiments with trying to get people to return to ancient art forms, especially ancient music forms like chant, will fail, and the Church will realize this and institute rubrics that encourage parishes all over the world to use the art and music, including the instruments, of their particular culture. I believe that the Church will see that this is not “secularization” of the Mass, but rather, “reclaiming the music that always belonged to the Lord.”

If I’m wrong, I’ll tell you what–in a hundred years, I’ll pay you all a dollar! Promise!

 

[TradionalWay]

This is such a good post. Thank you for lifting up my soul with so many good statements.

It has never occurred to me that using political groupings to label religious practices is a Western cultural practice. Very thought-provoking. I will attempt to be more cautious about this in the future.

And you’re right–even if the choice of practice is questionable (e.g., contemporary music, etc.), the motivation is almost always a desire for a deeper faith and more vibrant Church. Thankfully the Lord Jesus sees our hearts and our motives, and is probably not nearly so harsh in his judgement as some of His children are.

Just for example… Lets say for tradition now… In previous councils weren’t there specific guidelines for which kind of music were allowed in church (eg. Gregorian Chant, later on polyphonic…) regardless of where your from?

 

[TradionalWay]

I make this point because for example a lot here would complain about guitars at Mass. Filipino culture is heavily influenced by Spanish culture, guitars are our instrument of choice. Even if you install a pipe organ in every parish in the country, you’d be hard pressed to find one who can play it. We’re a poor country and very few (usually the wealthy) get to even touch a keyboard instrument. Playing the guitar is an expression of our culture. So is it Protestantism? No. Its the inculturation of the faith.

Just for example… Lets say for tradition now… In previous councils weren’t there specific guidelines for which kind of music were allowed in church (eg. Gregorian Chant, later on polyphonic…) regardless of where your from?

 

[Tsuwano]

To my point of view, I would say the Asian catholic church (in general) is somewhat to the higher on of liberalism.

Any suggestions why?

1 example: Music at mass would be mainly from protestant roots, and played with drums, guitars and other "rock’ instruments

I think you probably have very little experience of the Church in Japan. Is this correct? Music at most Japanese liturgies are most definitely not from the Protestant churches.

 

[Tsuwano]

Asia covers a lot of areas. My daughter is moving to Japan. I believe there are few Catholics there & would like to learn more about Japanese Catholics if anyone has any first hand knowledge.

You are correct that there are few Catholics in Japan, but the Church carries weight far above its numbers, esepcially in education and social work. The Church here is small, but it is vibrant and has a long tradition of enduring persecution and remaining true to the faith. It is said that the Church in Japan has suffered more martyrs than any other Church since the early Roman Church. True or not, the Church here has known suffering and is strong because of it. Your daughter should find a home here.

 

[TradionalWay]

I think you probably have very little experience of the Church in Japan. Is this correct? Music at most Japanese liturgies are most definitely not from the Protestant churches.

To be honest, I don’t know anything about the church in Japan, Korea and China…

 

[ConstantineTG]

Just for example… Lets say for tradition now… In previous councils weren’t there specific guidelines for which kind of music were allowed in church (eg. Gregorian Chant, later on polyphonic…) regardless of where your from?

We’re going with what is allowed today. Why insist on a “what-if” situation that is not representative of the reality?

 

[choliks]

I think it’s dangerous to equate cultural expressions of faith to so-called protestant influences. They are not the same.

 

[Tsuwano]

I think it’s dangerous to equate cultural expressions of faith to so-called protestant influences. They are not the same.

Excellent point!

 

[Sarahforgiven]

You are correct that there are few Catholics in Japan, but the Church carries weight far above its numbers, esepcially in education and social work. The Church here is small, but it is vibrant and has a long tradition of enduring persecution and remaining true to the faith. It is said that the Church in Japan has suffered more martyrs than any other Church since the early Roman Church. True or not, the Church here has known suffering and is strong because of it. Your daughter should find a home here.

My daughter is moving to Yokohama, & I saw they have a Cathedral there. I hope to visit it next year! Thank you for this information

 

[ConstantineTG]

I think it’s dangerous to equate cultural expressions of faith to so-called protestant influences. They are not the same.

Why? In the first century, most of the cultural expressions were pagan in origin.

 

[OraLabora]

Just for example… Lets say for tradition now… In previous councils weren’t there specific guidelines for which kind of music were allowed in church (eg. Gregorian Chant, later on polyphonic…) regardless of where your from?

Regardless of where you’re from… Does not consider reality. I am of French descent and speak it fluently. Therefore Latin for liturgy isn’t an impediment for me. I’ll bet you five bucks though, that it would be for most Koreans who struggle with even a well-known language like English. This I know from a dozen or so business trips there. Same thing for Japan which I’ve also visited. Given that reality, how would you give Gregorian chant “pride of place” in the liturgy? Latin, it’s structures, pronunciation and way of thinking would be completely foreign to them.

And I say this as a lover of plainchant and member of a schola. But I am also realistic.

The growth of the Church beyond Europe and its former colonies is one reason that Mass in the local vernacular was needed. Latin is simply too foreign-different alphabet even- for meaningful participation by a laity sometimes with little educational resources. It’s similar to the Bible in eras where literacy wasnt widespread. Not much point in owning a Bible if you can’t read

 

[Tsuwano]

Why? In the first century, most of the cultural expressions were pagan in origin.

True, but the cultural expressions we use today, which may have had pagan origins, are not the same as those pagan expressions. In the same way, cultural expressions today, which may have Protestant influences, are not the same as those Protestant expressions. That is why it is dangerous to “equate” the two. They are not the same and do not mean the same.

 

[ConstantineTG]

True, but the cultural expressions we use today, which may have had pagan origins, are not the same as those pagan expressions. In the same way, cultural expressions today, which may have Protestant influences, are not the same as those Protestant expressions. That is why it is dangerous to “equate” the two. They are not the same and do not mean the same.

No, it only means as much as we assign meaning to it. Because we see them as Protestant, we scoff at them. It doesn’t stand a chance for that simple reason.

Maybe we should concern ourselves with finding God in everything so we can see Him no matter what we do.

 

[Tsuwano]

No, it only means as much as we assign meaning to it. Because we see them as Protestant, we scoff at them. It doesn’t stand a chance for that simple reason.

Maybe we should concern ourselves with finding God in everything so we can see Him no matter what we do.

The first part of your post confuses me. If we are talking about cultural expressions of Catholic faith, who is the “we” who scoffs at them. Those who utilize those expressions do not scoff at them. The Church doesn’t scoff at them. The cultural expressions of Japan, say, may be used to express Catholic faith, but even if those cultural expressions have roots in Shinto or Japanese folk practices, they are not expressions of Shinto or Japanese folk belief. They are expressions of Catholic belief utilizing the cultural forms of Japan. The Church recognizes the use of unique cultural forms to express Catholicity as long as those forms do not undermine or overwhelm the faith they are representing.

I agree whole heartedly with the second part of your post.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The first part of your post confuses me. If we are talking about cultural expressions of Catholic faith, who is the “we” who scoffs at them. Those who utilize those expressions do not scoff at them. The Church doesn’t scoff at them. The cultural expressions of Japan, say, may be used to express Catholic faith, but even if those cultural expressions have roots in Shinto or Japanese folk practices, they are not expressions of Shinto or Japanese folk belief. They are expressions of Catholic belief utilizing the cultural forms of Japan. The Church recognizes the use of unique cultural forms to express Catholicity as long as those forms do not undermine or overwhelm the faith they are representing.

I agree whole heartedly with the second part of your post.

Because we associate such things as “Protestant”. For example, in the Philippines singing is a popular passtime. I guess behind the Japanese and Koreans, we’re next in our love for Karaoke. In fact, here in North America, its a staple for a Filipino immigrant’s home to have a Magic Sing (a microphone with a computer built in that you hook up to a TV and turn your TV into an instant Karaoke machine). We also love our guitars. We took that from the Spanish influence to our culture.

Now with our singing and guitar playing, what do traditional Catholics think? Protestantization, what else. But what can we do, our culture does fit that aspect of the Protestant faith. That is why no wonder Evangelicals and Pentecostals are making grounds in the country. Even Charistmatic Catholicism is huge there. Its just in our culture.

 

[dconklin]

My guess is that the OP has not spent much time studying the roots of the Catholic Church is Asia. Since the Mass as we know it today was developed and refined over centuries in Europe, most people consider European Masses as Conservative. The first Masses were celebrated around the eastern Mediterranean. They used flutes, lyres and small drums - which are considered liberal instruments today. No pipe-organs back then.

Catholicism entered Asia for the most part over the past century - from America. Most Christian missionaries to Asia were Protestants.

When I went to Mass in Singapore many years ago, the most liberal (to me) thing I saw was that they reverently bowed to one another at the kiss of peace. And here comes the loud American grabbing everyone’s hand.

 

[Old_Medic]

Drums, horns and many other instruments have been used at ROMAN CATHOLIC Masses for centuries. There is absolutely nothing “Protestant” about such music.

The American Catholics tended to follow the Irish tradition more than any other. In Ireland, music was suppressed by the English (who barely tolerated any Catholic Worship at all). To have music during the Mass was to call attention to the fact that it was being celebrated, and could easily bring the authorities down on the church. Many Priests were arrested, imprisoned and sometimes even executed by the British.

So, most Irish simply had little, if any, music at their Masses.

Unfortunately, they passed this on when they came to the US. But, this was NOT the norm all over Europe. In many countries, they would have entire Orchestra’s play during Mass at the Cathedrals. Guitars, bagpipes, flutes, horns of every type, drums, etc. were commonly utilized at smaller churches. Even our lovely Christmas Hymn, “Silent Night”, was originally written to be played on a Guitar (and that was in Austria).

It simply amazes me that so many American Catholics have so little knowledge of their own church, and see anything that they are not familiar with as being “Protestant” or somehow offensive.