Ask A Baptist Pastor

[reformissionary]

Against my better judgment I’m opening a catch-all thread for conversations that keep sparking up at the John 6 thread I started. I’m getting lots of questions & challenges there that deserve to be considered. This is the thread for those.

Here is more about me to try to get all that out of the way. All of this has been easily accessible if you go to my profile, despite the claims that I haven’t been open about what I believe. It’s all right there. If you want a starting point for you, why don’t you give this much info about yourself too? The more you keep private the less charitable people tend to be on these forums. So here we go…

1. My name is Steve McCoy. Born into a Methodist family I was a nominal Christian. I was converted along with my wife while at university. I have a Bachelor’s degree in biblical studies and a Master’s of Divinity degree in missions & evangelism. I’ve worked as a missionary to international students in Kentucky.
2. I’m the pastor of a Southern Baptist church in Chicagoland. Most Southern Baptists don’t feel comfortable in our church because we don’t fit the stereotype. I mostly preach expositionally through books of the Bible.
3. I’m a blogger at Reformissionary.net. It’s had different emphases at different times, but mostly it’s whatever I feel like talking about. It’s ranked in the top 100 church blogs (just to let you know it’s not just some out of the way site by some oddball pastor, and there are many).
4. Most importantly, I’m the husband of a beauty who has had brain surgery twice in the last 3 years. We have 4 amazing kids (13yrs to 7yrs old). We have an autistic child. I like to coach baseball and listen to good music. I’m an amateur photographer. I like Chicago sports teams…yes…including the Cubs (my cross to bear). I like black coffee.
5. A few starting points…

I believe in the** 5 solas** of the reformation: Scripture, faith, grace, in Christ, & for the glory of God. I adhere to the 5 points of Calvinism and believers baptism. I believe in a 2000 year old church, not 500 years. I disagree with plenty of Protestants too, not just Catholics. So to merely use “Protestant” and “Catholic” as comparison points is erroneous. The essentials of the faith, of the truth of God as found in Scripture is what makes us as descendants of the Apostles. It’s not about succession of Popes, but succession of sound doctrine.

After a lot of recent, intentional interaction with local Catholics through attending their own studies & Mass (which I give significant time to as they are 31% of our local population) I am greatly concerned with much. A few examples…

1. “Real Presence” teaching of the Eucharist has lead to Eucharolatry. The symbol of Jesus has become an idol and therefore a false Jesus. The real presence of Jesus is with us in the Holy Spirit at the Lord’s Supper and in every place believers go.
2. Also, Catholics tend to abuse the idea of “mystery” by making it a placeholder for inconsistency and error rather than actual mystery. How God can be three persons and one God at the same time is a true mystery. It isn’t illogical. It’s just beyond our comprehension. The “accidents” of the Eucharist is another example. It’s the “real presence” of Jesus yet it still looks and tastes like bread and wine.
3. Catholics tend to build the most important aspects of the Christian life out of “speculative theology.” For example Marian teaching is not based on clear inspiration from God as found in Scripture. God could have been very clear on the Catholic version of Mary. He didn’t. Yet Catholics keep running with their speculations and making them dogmatic. I’ve found many Catholic women who have a personal relationship with Mary much more significant than with Jesus.
4. Catholics tend to defend their faith by saying they** don’t do things they do**. Just saying that isn’t what you are doing doesn’t make it so. Doing is as doing does, not as the doer says. For example, “We don’t worship Mary!” Ok. Let’s talk about what worship is, what the incommunicable attributes of God are, etc. Let’s ask if what is ascribed to Mary is something to be ascribed to God alone or not.

That’s a start. Please don’t respond to this post by trying to refute every point. I get it. You don’t agree with my points at all. I assume that coming in. I’m just trying to tell you my starting point so as we talk you get a bit of what I believe and see and think.

My time on this forum is limited. I plan to spend a certain amount of time here each week and that’s what I can give. If this thread goes anything like the John 6 one, I won’t be able to respond to everything. Can we at least agree to try to aim small and make our questions and answers and arguments brief so this won’t consume our lives? If you try to post a huge thing, I’ll just ignore it. Let’s do one thing at a time.

I think it will be helpful for all of us to interact on topics of importance where we disagree. I doubt I’ll be convinced to change. I doubt you’ll be convinced to change. Public forums and personal pride of us all make it very difficult. But I know a lot will be trolling and some will be convinced. And I know working through issues will strengthen us in our beliefs if we truly will work through them with consistency.

So, let’s have some fun in the process and feel free to ask the baptist pastor. I’m open to the challenge.

 

[Ave_Maria_1]

Dear Steve,

I am curious: why are you here? Are you here to seek converts or are you here because the Holy Spirit is tugging at your heart and you are wondering if the Catholic faith is indeed the true faith founded by Jesus Christ 2000 years ago?

I do not remember who started the baptist churches but it was founded by a man and not Our Lord.

As a ‘protestant’ (one who protests against the Catholic faith) how do you suppose Christians lived for 1500 years before one man after another felt free to start their own church and come up with their own rules, or lack thereof?

So you think that Christians lived in ignorance and stupidity for 1500 years until such enlightened ones came on the scene and God allowed the apostasy? So you think they were and are engaged in idol worship as they spend time in Adoration of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament and receive the Body and Blood of Christ in Holy Communion? If so, why would God allow this error to go on for so long? Did Our Lord not promise to send the Holy Spirit to lead us in all truth?

Why, if the ‘Holy Spirit’ inspired a man to found the baptist and the tens of thousands of other protestant churches, would He allow so many of them, each with their own form of ‘truth’ which can change or be voted on? I do not understand that. How can there be many and opposing ‘truths’?

You do sound like a good Christian man. I think you would make a very good Catholic! The Tiber is beckoning! Our Lord is beckoning. Have you been to Mass? Have you come to adoration? You can ask Our Lord if He is present there in His physical actuality.

Belief in the Real Presence is the core belief of our faith, the ‘Source and Summit’. If one does not have faith, and believes that is is a symbol of whatever, they can indeed travel along to any number of other denominations that might suit them. (denomination: a part of a whole). BUT if one has the faith to give assent of the will to the 2000 year old teaching of the Catholic Church that Christ is truly present in the Holy Eucharist and if one loves God, how can one ever leave the Catholic Church?

This core belief leads to assent of the other teachings, dogmas, and doctrines of the Catholic Church. There is not one question that cannot be answered. But just like the thousands of Jews that walked away when Our Lord was preparing the way for the institution of the Eucharist, one has to have the gift of faith.

I hope you will come to know and love and long for the sacramental life that only the Catholic Church can give you! You will come to such a greater union with Jesus Christ than you ever believed possible! You will find a path to holiness such as you never dreamed. You will come to know Our Lady and the Saints as long to be with them in heaven. You will find joy in Truth.

The Tiber has its currents but it is not all that deep. Cross on over! We will welcome you with open hearts and open arms. Yes, there will be roadblocks and plenty. Be not detoured. You might with to read or listen to the conversion of Dr. Scott Hahn and you will see more of what to expect. Come on home, Steve!

your sister in Christ

 

[MarcoPolo]

“Real Presence” teaching of the Eucharist has lead to Eucharolatry. The symbol of Jesus has become an idol and therefore a false Jesus.

Wow, I didn’t get that out of the John 6 thread even a little. And from that thread, I think further apologetic discussion is futile. However!—There’s plenty of room for you in the Catholic Church, Steve. I extend you an invitation and would welcome you into the fullness of His Church.

 

[Paul1961]

Steve,

Welcome to the forum. It’s nice that you came. I’m sure some people will be giving you a hard time but their are many of us that are not threatened by you. Let’s keep the discussions friendly and agree to disagree at times.

Paul

 

[Tantum_ergo]

So basically, Rev. Steve, you’ve come on to tell us all that we Catholics ‘do wrong,’ But you don’t want to hear us explain where you have erred. You want to let everything you say get accepted as a 'legitimate POV" on your part with absolutely no rebuttal on ours, and you then want to have us just talk about the issues you want to talk about.

I’m sure you’re a nice person. God bless you and your family. I’m glad that you are fervent about Christ.

But. . .no matter how ‘nice’ you are, you’re pretty much dismissing us. We can’t tell ‘our side’, we’re only supposed to come to you to find out about ‘your side’. That isn’t dialogue, that is. . .well, it is prosletyzing on your part.

I can understand that it is hard for you trying to talk to a ‘bunch of Catholics’. You feel as though they get to say ‘their say’ a dozen times for every ‘one’ time you get. But that is the ‘nature of the beast’ of a forum.

I’m sure that any of us who choose can go to your blog and find out about you.

But when you’re on a forum, you can’t suddenly ‘change the rules’ and cut off the ‘other point of view’ before it’s even said.

We’d love to chat with you, but that means we both have to have the freedom to speak. Not just you alone.

 

[jayk15]

Steve,

Let me draw your attention to certain miracles that have happened within the Catholic church

1. How do you explain the bleeding Eucharistic hosts?
   How to you explain the hosts turning into the actual flesh of Christ
   Remarkably, one host started to bleed when a Priest who was consecrating it, was doubting the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
   How do you explain Eucharistic hosts that was preserved for two hundered years?
   (These miracles can be found at : therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html)
2. How to you explain the Marian apparitions that have happened all over the world. Especially the apparition at Fatima, where World WarII was predicted.

3)How do you explain bleeding crucifixes, crying statues of Mary, holy cards ooozing oil?

1. How do you explain the exorcisms that the Catholic Church has performed over the years. Its seem that this is really Christ’s Church if it is expelling demons.
2. How do you explain the fact that there is an unbroken chain of Popes from St Peter.
3. How do you explain the fact that no man started the Catholic Church(Unlike the Protestant Churches), but the Catholic Church can trace its roots back to Christ and his apostles?
4. How do you explain the fact that the Catholic Church determined the canon of Scripture at her councils at Rome, Hippo and Carthage?

Something for you to think about

Christ be with you
Jason

 

[poetryforjesus]

1. “Real Presence” teaching of the Eucharist has lead to Eucharolatry. The symbol of Jesus has become an idol and therefore a false Jesus. The real presence of Jesus is with us in the Holy Spirit at the Lord’s Supper and in every place believers go.
   /QUOTE]

Hey Steve, can you explain just how the Eucharist has become an idol? After all, Catholics believe Eucharist is Christ and Christ is still the one we worship. We don’t go around and bow down before any piece of bread and any cup of wine. We also still venerate and preach the Bible. How have we become idolaters? We have not got any new and strange God. We don’t tell our converts to worship bread and wine; instead, we tell them to worship Jesus in all we do and all we are. So how are we idolaters?

 

[JustaServant]

Quoting an anti-Catholic:

“You Catholic’s don’t know what you’re missing when you don’t rock with Jesus. Church is supposed to be fun and full of Joy and happiness. But yours seems like going to funeral and so dignified and boring. In my Church, sometimes we even dance in the Spirit, have Holy laughter, and run and dance. When God shows up anything can happen. Why do you want to restrict Him so much? What is all this that I am talking about? The manifest presence of God.”

When the Eucharist is removed from a Christian’s life, they are forever trying to find something to replace it with.
Some (like me) try Bible study. But no amount of knowledge, memorization, or meditation on the Sacred Scriptures can give me what the Eucharist gives me.
Some try music. Emotional music can make my toe tap or bring me to tears. But as good as music is, it can never give me what can give me what the Eucharist gives me.
Others, like our poor mislead friend above look for ‘miracles and manifestations’. They at least know there is something more, an encounter with the Divine. But there is no greater miracle or manifestation greater than that which is found in the Eucharist.
Jesus said

“lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.”

This is made real through the Eucharist as we connect with the Risen Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus instituted the new covenant. He said this is my body with the focus on the bread. He said this is my blood with the focus on the wine. So when I take communion every Sunday I realize that by the power of the Holy Spirit I am in this everlasting covenant with God through the blood of His Son.
And as I take the elements into myself, by the power of the Holy Spirit I am receiving Christ into me, mind, body, and soul, and our lives flow as one. His body strengthens me, His blood renews life in me, He is feeding me His very self. Christ feeds us spiritual food and we, in eating and drinking, have received His very Life through the sacraments.
As Jesus sat down with two on the road to Emmaus

“he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him”

Later they told the Apostles: “what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.”
In the Holy Eucharist we have the one sacrament whose principal purpose is to increase sanctifying grace, repeatedly and often, through personal union with the Giver of grace Himself.
That is why the Holy Eucharist is preeminently the sacrament of spiritual growth, of increase in spiritual stature and strength.
That is why the soul already must be in the state of sanctifying grace when we receive Holy Communion—in other words, free from mortal sin.
Physical food cannot benefit a dead body, and the Holy Eucharist cannot benefit a dead soul.
Since I have returned to the Church, I have seen more spiritual growth than I ever dreamed possible. Things have become clearer to me than they were before.
In the arena, before they went out to die, Christians would partake of the Eucharist. And mystically, but also in reality, they went out stronger human beings to face whatever there was to face.
No amount “holy” laughter or “jumping and dancing” in the Spirit can replace that.
Catholics have the “manifest presence of God” in the Eucharist.

 

[JustaServant]

Wherever you meet the early church, there is one characteristic. Whether it be in the arena just before they are fed to the wild lions. In that anteroom they were doing something. If you went to their secret meetings in the cemeteries where they met for fear of the authorities on a Sunday morning, they will be doing the same thing that they were doing in the anteroom. Wherever you find these Christians, that’s the one thing they did.
Eating of the Body and Blood of Christ.
In the anteroom in the arena, and in there secret church meetings, they gathered around, and took a piece of bread, and they broke it, and they said, “this is the body of Christ”, and they ate it. And they took a cup of wine, and they said, “this is the blood of Christ”, and they drank it. And mystically, but all so really, they went out stronger than human beings to face whatever there was to face.
That’s why you went to church on a Sunday morning. It wasn’t to have another Gospel meeting. In fact they wouldn’t allow unconverted people to come. Isn’t that shocking! They had a deacon at the door, and just before the act of breaking the bread, the fellow in charge would yell out, “doors! The deacons would guard the doors to make sure no unbelievers would come in. This was family time.
The family sat down to eat in the presence of Jesus.
And the meal was Jesus.
Jesus said do this in remembrance of me. And the word remembrance does not mean to send your mind back and try to mentally imagine. That is not the meaning of the word. ***The word means to bring something forward into the present, and re-enact it. ***
So they re-enacted it just like Jesus did on that last night. They took bread just like He did; they took wine just like He did. And they said the words He said, because He promised that He would be unusually, uniquely present, that He would be the Host of that meal in a way present as no where else, and that he would actually feed them with His own very person and self.
And they would go up. And they said Christ is in me, and they said it at a level of understanding that was more than some mystical way because I kept repeating it long enough that I kind of psyched myself into it. No, they actually knew! They had partaken of Christ himself and were strengthened.
That is strange to our western ears, but it is not strange to the ears of the early church! That was the beating heart of Christianity, a meal together with Jesus! And they did it every time they came together, and they did it every time they faced incredible pressure. There was a meal; it was a covenant meal. It was a meal where Jesus was the Host at the table, and Jesus fed them with his very self.

 

[jayk15]

Justaservant, you said I am mislead because I look for miracles. I merely indicated those miracles to prove the Real Presence and the Authenticity of the Church. Sometimes it takes a miracle to make one believe.

Christ be with you

 

[RBK]

I believe in the** 5 solas** of the reformation: Scripture, faith, grace, in Christ, & for the glory of God. I adhere to the 5 points of Calvinism and believers baptism. I believe in a 2000 year old church, not 500 years. I disagree with plenty of Protestants too, not just Catholics. So to merely use “Protestant” and “Catholic” as comparison points is erroneous. The essentials of the faith, of the truth of God as found in Scripture is what makes us as descendants of the Apostles. It’s not about succession of Popes, but succession of sound doctrine.

Sound doctrine according to who? Have you looked at the 2010 Status of Global Mission put out by Gordon Conwell Seminary? gordonconwell.edu/sites/default/files/IBMR2010.pdf

According to Gordon Conwell, there are currently 41,000 denominations, and they predict there will be 55,000 by 2025!!

I worshiped in a Baptist church for a time. I bounced around several denominations for nearly 40 years before being received into the Catholic Church in 2007. There was very little theological consensus among these denominations, but they all claimed to be led by the Holy Spirit.

What led me to the Catholic Church was reading the writings of the Early Christians, particularly those who wrote prior to the determination of the NT Canon. What did the Church who gave us the Bible teach? The fact is, the Church included books in the Canon that agreed with its teachings, with what had been passed on to it by the Apostles. And when you travel back in history like I did, you will find that infant baptism was the norm, except for adult converts.You will not find TULIP or the 5 Solas being practiced. Period. For the life of me, I can’t understand why that wouldn’t bother you.

In all Christian charity, why are you and the relatively small number of Christians who agree with you right, and we’re wrong? The Church was in existence for 400 years without a NT. Only a minute percentage of human beings had access to the Bible before the invention of the printing press. Literacy rates must also be taken into account. According to the study linked above, in 1900 there were approximately 1,073,634,000 people living. And of that number, 777,485,000 were illiterate!

If Jesus intended the Bible to be our only source of authority, then why didn’t He forsee these problems? And among the relatively few who had access until recent times, why did He not give everyone the ability to interpret? If, as 1 Tim. 2:4 says, that God desires that ALL would be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth, then why would He make it so very difficult for the overwhelming majority of people who have lived during the last 2,000 years?

St. Paul says that there should be NO divisions among us, that we should all speak the SAME thing. Jesus prayed that we would all be ONE. Where else do you see any Church speaking the same thing and remaining one for 2,000 years outside of the Catholic Church? This is why I am Catholic and why I am home, gratefully!

 

[reformissionary]

So basically, Rev. Steve, you’ve come on to tell us all that we Catholics ‘do wrong,’ But you don’t want to hear us explain where you have erred. You want to let everything you say get accepted as a 'legitimate POV" on your part with absolutely no rebuttal on ours, and you then want to have us just talk about the issues you want to talk about.

What? I opened this entire new thread so you can say whatever you like to me.

But. . .no matter how ‘nice’ you are, you’re pretty much dismissing us. We can’t tell ‘our side’, we’re only supposed to come to you to find out about ‘your side’. That isn’t dialogue, that is. . .well, it is prosletyzing on your part.

How am I dismissing you? I’m opening more opportunities to discuss things with you?

I can understand that it is hard for you trying to talk to a ‘bunch of Catholics’. You feel as though they get to say ‘their say’ a dozen times for every ‘one’ time you get. But that is the ‘nature of the beast’ of a forum.

I’m sure that any of us who choose can go to your blog and find out about you.

But when you’re on a forum, you can’t suddenly ‘change the rules’ and cut off the ‘other point of view’ before it’s even said.

We’d love to chat with you, but that means we both have to have the freedom to speak. Not just you alone.

What rules have I changed? I haven’t done anything but respond to what you all are saying. I think it’s pretty funny that this is a Catholic forum and I’m getting dozens of responses to each of my own and I’m not giving you all freedom to speak. Seriously, I laughed out loud when I read this.

Reread my post. You have me totally wrong.

 

[WatchingMedia]

If you do not want your points refuted, why did you print your points on this site.
Your logic does not make sense to me.
Sounds like a hit and run, and a waste of time. You want to do the all the talking and expect the rest of us to listen. - lets discuss but don’t refute my points ? ? ?
The stuff you brought up has been answered many times. Why don’t you just go back and read old postings?
No offense intended but it will save everyone time.

 

[jam070406]

Steve,

How many unbelievers actually wander into your church? What’s the point of preaching to a bunch of “saved” people. What can you add to their salvation? And what can you tell them that they can’t read by picking up the Bible. Worship music? Why? What’s the point? Can’t benefit you. Why would people believe you over what they draw out of scripture themselves? At what point does it turn from being about Jesus to how great your preaching and what a charismatic preacher you are? Have you ever considered that point?

 

[reformissionary]

Hey Steve, can you explain just how the Eucharist has become an idol? After all, Catholics believe Eucharist is Christ and Christ is still the one we worship. We don’t go around and bow down before any piece of bread and any cup of wine. We also still venerate and preach the Bible. How have we become idolaters? We have not got any new and strange God. We don’t tell our converts to worship bread and wine; instead, we tell them to worship Jesus in all we do and all we are. So how are we idolaters?

Sure. An idol is a man-made or created object that is worshiped in place of God. Idols of old where formed by men. We can have idols of our hearts which is anything that takes the place of God. A lot we can say there. A lot of Bible we can turn to. And we should be in agreement on idolatry in general, right?

Now, you don’t tell converts to worship bread? What is an adoration chapel? You can say it’s Jesus all you want. It is what it is. I’ve heard stories of Catholics trying to steal the host rather than eat it. The church stopped serving wine for years because they were afraid to spill Jesus’ blood.

The Eucharist puts Jesus in the hands of people, like in Jeremiah 10…

Their idols are like scarecrows in a cucumber field, and jthey cannot speak; they have to be carried, for they cannot walk.

I read a book a few years back on Hinduism. They make some sort of idol and summons a god to embody that idol. Sounds a lot like Catholicism. We know where Jesus is…at the right hand of God. We know he left so he could send us the Holy Spirit, and he is with us through the Holy Spirit.

 

[reformissionary]

If you do not want your points refuted, why did you print your points on this site.
Your logic does not make sense to me.
Sounds like a hit and run, and a waste of time. You want to do the all the talking and expect the rest of us to listen. - lets discuss but don’t refute my points ? ? ?
The stuff you brought up has been answered many times. Why don’t you just go back and read old postings?
No offense intended but it will save everyone time.

Refute all the points you want. My point was, pick one. Don’t respond in one post to ALL of them. Brevity is better. I was just trying to give you my background and beliefs, not a long post to respond to in total.

 

[jmcrae]

Sure. An idol is a man-made or created object that is worshiped in place of God. Idols of old where formed by men. We can have idols of our hearts which is anything that takes the place of God. A lot we can say there. A lot of Bible we can turn to. And we should be in agreement on idolatry in general, right?

Right.

Now, you don’t tell converts to worship bread? What is an adoration chapel? You can say it’s Jesus all you want. It is what it is. I’ve heard stories of Catholics trying to steal the host rather than eat it.

It’s interesting that one never hears stories of people stealing Baptist Holy Communion. Only that which has value is liable to be stolen.

I read a book a few years back on Hinduism. They make some sort of idol and summons a god to embody that idol. Sounds a lot like Catholicism. We know where Jesus is…at the right hand of God. We know he left so he could send us the Holy Spirit, and he is with us through the Holy Spirit.

I don’t know enough about Hinduism to comment on that part, but with regard to Christ, do you not believe that He is in your heart? Jesus is not off somewhere, far away - He is here with us on earth. One of the ways that He is with us (but not the only way) is in the Holy Eucharist.

 

[reformissionary]

Steve,

How many unbelievers actually wander into your church? What’s the point of preaching to a bunch of “saved” people. What can you add to their salvation? And what can you tell them that they can’t read by picking up the Bible. Worship music? Why? What’s the point? Can’t benefit you. Why would people believe you over what they draw out of scripture themselves? At what point does it turn from being about Jesus to how great your preaching and what a charismatic preacher you are? Have you ever considered that point?

I have no idea what ultimate point you are trying to make, or how you mean to connect these questions. Can you start with one?

 

[RBK]

It is what it is.

And it is the Word Made Flesh. This has been the belief of the Church for 2,000 years. Therefore, worshiping the Eucharist - Christ, cannot be considered idolatry. Surely you must realize how insulting your words are to every Catholic on this forum, no? Or does that not matter to you…

 

[reformissionary]

It’s interesting that one never hears stories of people stealing Baptist Holy Communion. Only that which has value is liable to be stolen.

Ha. Well done. Without meaning to break the funny, the point is someone can literally steal the body of Jesus from a Catholic church. You can’t do that to my Savior, to the biblical Savior.

I don’t know enough about Hinduism to comment on that part, but with regard to Christ, do you not believe that He is in your heart? Jesus is not off somewhere, far away - He is here with us on earth. One of the ways that He is with us (but not the only way) is in the Holy Eucharist.

No. When one says “I have Jesus in my heart” (I don’t use that terminology, and neither does the Bible) the meaning is not that Jesus is inside the muscle that pumps the blood through my body. When the Biblical writers talk about heart, they don’t mean that muscle either. Love the Lord with all your heart doesn’t mean with that muscle. It’s about relationship, faith, trust, etc.

You say Jesus is here with us on the earth. Agreed. The question is “How?” or “In what way?” He is with us in the Lord’s Supper, as we go about making disciples, where 2-3 meet together, etc. But bread and wine actually, literally becoming body and blood? No.